Fair enough!
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Questions and answers with Jeremiah2911 and others
- Thread starter Thinkingstuff
- Start date
Fair enough!
Your original statement and logical order was:
"Life is given by Grace through Faith and Communicated by Signs"
In the above statement you say life in grace is given "before" faith.
So which is it? Does life in grace come "before" faith or "through" faith? If life in grace exists "before" faith then it does not come "through" faith!! You can't have it both ways!
Remember both statements have this occuring BEFORE sacraments.
Next question. Since life comes "in" or "by" grace "before" faith, then how does grace come to that person without faith?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Actually you can depending on where you are at in your faith journey. God initially calls. He gives you the grace to understand the call and receive the call. Upon receipt of that call a willingness to accept faith you are granted faith. Faith then is in opperation. You cannot give yourself faith.
It has occured to me that maybe you confuse the Sacraments as the only way of receiving grace. Which isn't the case. These are special items which Jesus instituted to meet him under the sign they are revealed under.
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I don't think you understood my questions. I am not talking about what you may or may not receive in baptism or following sacraments.
I am talking about prior to sacraments. You make two statements that contradict each other in regard to the state of a person BEFORE sacraments.
You say life is received by grace THROUGH faith prior to anything received in sacraments.
Then you say life by grace is received BEFORE faith prior to anything received in sacraments.
So all of this is prior to receiving anything in sacraments.
Is life by grace received prior to sacraments "THROUGH" or "BEFORE" faith? Both cannot be its reception point BEFORE sacraments! To say both is like saying I want my cake and eat it too! You either received life in grace BEFORE you received faith OR you received life in grace "THROUGH" faith? Which is it?
I am talking about prior to sacraments. You make two statements that contradict each other in regard to the state of a person BEFORE sacraments.
You say life is received by grace THROUGH faith prior to anything received in sacraments.
Then you say life by grace is received BEFORE faith prior to anything received in sacraments.
So all of this is prior to receiving anything in sacraments.
Is life by grace received prior to sacraments "THROUGH" or "BEFORE" faith? Both cannot be its reception point BEFORE sacraments! To say both is like saying I want my cake and eat it too! You either received life in grace BEFORE you received faith OR you received life in grace "THROUGH" faith? Which is it?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Why must it be either or? It really is simple! Before one can obtain Faith, Grace and the interior working of the HOLY SPIRIT must occur. Before Graces are gifted in the sacramental life there must be Faith.
BTW thats the nice thing about God he often gives us cake and lets us eat it too
You are saying that it is possible to have Spritual life without faith and yet have spiritual life "through" faith.
Are you talking about the same kind of "life" before sacraments without faith and through faith or are you talking about two different kinds of "life" before sacraments without faith or through faith?
Are you talking about the same kind of "faith" through which life comes or which life is without BEFORE faith?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
No. I'm saying God is the first Cause of the spritual life. He makes it so that you are able to have faith. Faith then makes it possible to have a spiritual life in reciept of the sacraments.
I honestly don't see it as either/or. I don't know what you find confusing.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
That pretty much sums it up. :thumbs:
Are you defining this life BEFORE faith to be equal to God Himself within the person producing spiritual life THROUGH faith which is completed in scacraments?
If so, then how does spiritual life produced through faith differ from God Himself before faith?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I have no idea what you mean by this. God is not equal to the faith. By first Cause I mean it all begins with him. I am at first an unspiritual being. God gives me grace to have faith. I cannot obtain that faith with out his grace. Faith is then given to me. Faith then opens the doors to a spiritual life.
I have no idea what you mean here.
"Life is given by Grace through Faith and Communicated by Signs" - TS
"No, because before faith you are given life in grace." - TS
In what sense does LIFE come BEFORE faith [thus life existed WITHOUT faith] differently than it does coming THROUGH faith [thus life existed WITH faith] but remember you stated that Life "in grace" with and without faith existed BEFORE sacraments?
It seems that you are teaching that regenerative life precedes faith before it can be made manifest through faith before it can be brought to completion in baptism? Is this correct?
If you are clearly teaching that regenerative life precedes faith and thus is expressed through faith made complete in submission to baptism then how can you defend that regenerative life occurs in baptism rather than before faith?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
One necissarily follows the other. Imagine this. An imperfect explanation but kind of along the lines.
I am dead. In order to have faith, God in a way resusitates me and offers me faith which the only reasonable response is to accept it. This comes to fulness in faith responding to God and meeting him in baptism which grants me a fuller life and entry into Kingdom of God.
Well, it must be wonderful to belong to a denomination that you can make up your own theology regardless of what the Word of God says or don't say. I know you won't find that statement humerous but can't help myself.
Well, if you are really dead, then resusitating means made alive, quickened regardless how brief that may be. So you are quickened before faith, before baptism rather "in" or "by" baptism.
How is this resusitation effected? When does it occur? How does it occur? By what does it occur? Through what does it occur?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Yes.
Baptism in a sense completes it or is the fruit of it.
God does it.
When God does it
By the the Power of the Holy Spirit
By the Omnipotent God.
The Holy Spirit.
All of this is before faith is given. Once faith is given it is an alive faith which necissarily leads to baptism. Baptism is affected through faith given by God to man.
So, in effect you have spiritual quickening without faith as it is the prequisite for faith to even exist.
This is very similar in one sense to my position that spiritual life (regeneration) precedes judicial life by conversion (faith and repentance), therefore being the cause of repentance and faith. The first being SPIRITUAL life IN the person of the elect the cause of faith while the latter the consequence of faith being JUDICIAL life IN Christ positionally before God in heaven.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Yes exactly as it says in the Catachism
and again
Yes it is the same.
I'm not sure what you mean or how you are catagorizing "Judicial life" with regard to faith.
You say that it is God that quickens/resustitates a person prior to faith. Now, do you mean God does it directly without any other kind of instrumentality between God and the person since this is done by God BEFORE faith exists, before sacraments are entered into?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I don't know what you mean in the Bold. God does it. Can you answer my previous question please.