Questions and answers with Jeremiah2911 and others

I mean does God directly quicken the dead sinner apart from the use of any instrumental means between God and that person (e.g. church, actions by church through ministry, preaching the gospel, etc.)? Remember, I am asking this in the context of PRIOR to faith, PRIOR to sacraments.

By "judicial life" I mean previously we were judicially condemned to death as this is the sentence of the law against sin. Judicial life is the reversal of that sentence from condemnation and death to justification and life. Purely a reversal of legal status and sentence.

 

Yes, but the basis for real death is violation of God's law and thus the sentence of death precedes real death. Hence, salvation is the reversal of both. Reversal of the sentence, as well as, the consequence of the sentence.

 

Yes, sin is violation/rebellion of God's revealed will. However, more importantly such rebellion is not defined by any word or action we might do or not do but the character of the intent behind the action. Ultimately, sin is defined as the wrong intent behind anything you say or do. The only right intent behind anything you say or do is "for the glory of God" and that is why "love" is the fulfilling of the law. Hence, all have sinned because all that man thinks, says or does "come short of the glory of God" as his intent.

Therefore it does not matter what revelation of God's will is broken (eating of a tree, rejecting God as revealed in nature, violation of His will revealed in conscience; violation of His will revealed in covenant law of Moses).

The reason why all the law is broken when one point is broken is because there is a deeper violation that occurs concerning the intent of the heart. Whatever we do or say must be by intent for the glory of God and when that is not the intent the whole purpose of the law is violated.

 

Alright, let us proceed to another point. Thus far, you have man quickened directly by God apart from any instrumental means so that he can choose to respond in faith prior to baptism and as a result of choosing to believe that initial life is confirmed through faith. - Correct?

QUESTION: Is there a possibility that the temporary quickening which provides ability to believe could be rejected by a response of unbelief rather than faith?


You have him responding in faith prior to baptism but then you have God advancing in baptism what was begun prior to baptism. I say "advancing" rather than "completing" because you assert that justification is simply progressive and never completed until he stands approved by God at judgment "according to his works." - Correct?

QUESTION: Now here is the next question. At the point of faith PRIOR to baptism is he also at that precise point INITIALLY justified OR does faith exist without INITIAL justification until "IN" the act of baptism?

I use the word "initial" because you have already stated that justifiation is progressive and never completed until judgment.

 

Of course how foolish of me to forget the quintessential crux of the Vatican's definition of good works. Alright, let me back up and reword it:

You have him responding in faith prior to baptism but then you have God advancing in baptism what was begun prior to baptism. I say "advancing" rather than "completing" because you assert that justification is simply progressive and never completed until he stands approved by God at judgment "according to God's works which are revealed in the beleiver by the beleiver's works." - Correct?

QUESTION: When does INITIAL justification begin? With the point of faith BEFORE baptism or not until with faith manifested IN baptism?

 

You have him responding in faith prior to baptism but then you have God advancing in baptism what was begun prior to baptism. I say "advancing" rather than "completing" because you assert that justification is simply progressive and never completed until he stands approved by God at judgment "according to God's works which are revealed in the believer by the believers obedience or cooperation." - Correct?

I am not asking what IS justification but WHEN justification BEGINS! According to your own step by step process you have the following points to place its beginning point

1. Dead before sustitation - Does it begin Here?

2. Quickened but without faith - Does it begin here?

3. Quickened with faith but BEFORE baptism - Does it begin here?

4. Quickened with faith IN baptism - Does it begin here?

 

Come on TS where are you? At what point does justification begin? At point #1? At point #2? At point #3 or at point #4? It must BEGIN at one of these points for it to begin at all.

 

Where are you TS? Perhaps busy? When you get the time, please answer my question above.

 

This is just wonderful but doesn't regeneration, glorification and every thing else start there too (Rom. 8:28-30)???????

Get real!

 

You are playing the politician and you know it. You know very well what I am asking. I am not asking where does justification/glorification/regeneration begin in God but where does justification begin in man in regard to the four points we have agreed upon!

 

Ok, it is quite obvious you are finished discussing this subject. All you have to do is go back and read your own posts to see that we have agreed to these four points as those four points were simply drawn conclusions from your own posts. You explain the first point in your own posts, all I did was simply restate it and you confirmed it. All I have done is simply repeated them. Read your own posts if you want an explanation as I did not furnish any explanations, all I did was confirm YOURS!

Thank you for the discussion. This last question would have exposed your position as irrational and false and that is precisely why you are playing the political game now.

If you would have placed it at point one you would have a spiritual dead man justified

If you would have placed it at point two you would have living but unbelieving man justified

If you would have placed it at point three you would have an unbaptized man justified by faith

If you would have placed it at point four you would have had a spiritually alive believing man in point three but not justified.