Lordship Salvation

[freeatlast]

You seem to be changing your tune. You constantly talk about making Jesus your Lord and stopping sinning. NOBODY ever completely stops sinning, not even you.

We are to repent of trusting in our own righteousness and ability to save ourselves, and trust Jesus alone to save us.

Once we trust Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit. We are a new creation. Now we will NATURALLY turn from sin. However, we are still in this FLESHLY body and will be tempted by it. And while there is no excuse, we all at times give in and obey the flesh. At these moments we are not obeying Jesus as our Lord. But thank God, he has promised to never leave us nor forsake us, although we are often unfaithful to him.

But when you teach a person has to stop sinning to be saved, this is works salvation and not depending on Jesus alone to save you.

No I am not! I am saying exactly what the bible teaches. We do not change, stop sinning, or even promise to stop sinning to be saved. We repent towards God and come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ then salvation changes us. Man is born with a bent against God being over them. We are born walking 180 degrees away from God and His authority. The one thing we do not want from birth is to have God rule over us. Learn the teaching of the slave and the piercing of the ear in the OT. At repentance we are turning 180 degrees to God for that rule. When that happens with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ He changes us, not us changing us. No believer will ever again practice sin. It is impossible to be in a state of repentance and a state of rebellion at the same time! No believer ever has to sin ever again. However because of the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life many will on occasions give in, in a given moment, but not live in it (practice it), because it is done with sorrow after that becauuse of what has happened to us in the new birth we confess and seek not to do it again. No believer practices sin 1John 3:9 because Jesus is their Lord and Master. Again learn the teaching of the slave and piercing of the ear in the OT.

 

[Winman]

What do I have to learn? You are NOW saying what I have always said. I have said many times in the past that the natural man will ALWAYS seek to save himself. I have shown how the Pharisee trusted in his own righteousness while the publican trusted in God's mercy. I have shown Luk 13:1-5 numerous times where Jesus shows these persons must repent of their self-righteousness or else they will perish. I have showed where the Sadducees and Pharisees came to John the Baptist, and John told them to "think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father", in other words, you cannot inherit salvation through the flesh.

I have been showing all these for two years, and now you tell me I need to learn?

I and others have OFTEN asked you what you mean by repentance, and you were evasive.

NOW you have finally come around, but you still attempt to make yourself appear as though you were always correct.

Humility is NOT your greatest virtue.

 

[freeatlast]

What do I have to learn? You are NOW saying what I have always said. I have said many times in the past that the natural man will ALWAYS seek to save himself. I have shown how the Pharisee trusted in his own righteousness while the publican trusted in God's mercy. I have shown Luk 13:1-5 numerous times where Jesus shows these persons must repent of their self-righteousness or else they will perish. I have showed where the Sadducees and Pharisees came to John the Baptist, and John told them to "think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father", in other words, you cannot inherit salvation through the flesh.

I have been showing all these for two years, and now you tell me I need to learn?

I and others have OFTEN asked you what you mean by repentance, and you were evasive.

NOW you have finally come around, but you still attempt to make yourself appear as though you were always correct.

Humility is NOT your greatest virtue.

Honestly I don not know if I am humble or not. If not may the Lord change that. I certainty desire to be all the Lord calls me to be. I do know that I am not the best at getting into print what I am trying to convey in such a fashion that express how it would be done in spoken language.
I will say I know of no time I seek to be evasive. In fact most likely my desire to speak clearly is what most ruffles the feathers of many. I tell you and all again learn the OT teaching of the slave and the piercing of the ear as that is an example (picture) of repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[MB]

I honestly have no idea with all the negativity in regards to LS. Look, we can not work long enough, or hard enough to obtain salvation, that is true. But one must sell out to the world, and give everything to Christ in order to be saved. Jesus found more favor in one widow woman's two mites than the others who were giving of their abundance. She gave her last two mites. She gave all she had. God wants 100%, and nothing else is acceptable.

Absolutely true yet only a few realize it. Amen:applause:
MB

 

[CF1]

Yes, but what do we repent of?

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.

What are we supposed to repent of? DEAD WORKS.

Work will not save you. We must place faith in Jesus alone to save us. It is a FREE GIFT. If you have to work to be saved, then it is not free.

Now, that said, once we are saved we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and practice righteousness. But our salvation is FREE.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did these persons call Jesus Lord? YES! In fact, it is emphasized, being said TWICE!

Did these persons do works? YES. They prophesied about Jesus, they cast out devils, they did many wonderful works.

Then why weren't they saved? Because they trusted in their works to save them and not Jesus alone.

Jn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

What did Jesus say we have to do here? Feed the poor? Stop sinning? NO. He said we must BELIEVE ON HIM.

Faith is not works, it is a ceasing of works and depending on Jesus alone to save you.

This post above helped bring clarity for me (in spite of a rebuttal, which seemed to disagree greatly while agreeing at the same time, which was a really confusing disagreement).

Winman's post above fits with the following verses

1 Samuel 16:7
But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

God looks at our heart which grieves after we fall to our indwelling sin. Such a heart that grieves also desires with the Holy Spirit dwelling in our heart to make such a glorious Saviour our Lord, even though our flesh fails us.

Rather than seeking Lordship as a "duty" or a "work" we should seek a heart that loves deeper, studies the beauty of our beloved more.

Many people, myself included, get caught up in the idea of duty or works based Lordship. So the term Lordship Salvation is confusing.

Teaching that is called Easy Believism, the negative term for Free Grace, also leads people astray. If people teach that you can just say a formula prayer and you're in heaven.

It is not the words that save. It is the heart changed, awakened from the dead, quickened, when the Holy Spirit proclaims and trumpets the word "Liberty" to a soul who was a wretched slave to sin. If we lose sight of this, then our faith becomes immature again, even though we may have been mature in our vision and sight of our beloved in the past, we can fall back into immaturity by pursuing the wrong desires, and becoming confused.


We all remember this passage:

James 2
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

So we see that faith from our heart does produce fruit, otherwise faith is dead.

But works produced by our own flesh to "look like the Spirit's fruit" that does not spring from the Spirit in our heart is prideful sin.

And since we still have the indwelling sin in our flesh, we all do have prideful sin some days, and try to manufacture miraculous, supernatural fruit that looks like the real thing to others. Yet God looks at the heart, and asks if such an "offering" brings him honor and glory, or if it brings man honor and glory.

Which causes us to pray as shown below:

Psalm 139:23
Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts;

1 Chronicles 28:9
“As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

So it seems that the term "Lordship Salvation" and the terms "Free Grace" are over-simplistic and can lead us astray, or confuse us, from holding in our minds the complete picture of what God does in our hearts supernaturally through the Holy Spirit.

It seems that both sides of the controversy complain about each other's position statements because both positions are inadequate to fully capture and grasp the vision of supernatural heart miracles that cause deep love, which results in fruit, that can be then called a voluntary and willing following of the Lord. It's either supernatural from amazing grace, or else its imitation fruit and sin like Cain brought, and like we bring when our flesh wins over the Holy Spirit.

Forcing people to either "love God to the point of Lordship" or else you won't be truly saved, is an example of causality reversal, which might result in people either refusing the God they should love, or, living in prideful imitation of love.

Rather, when we evangelize we should say, seek to grasp a vision for the beauty of your beloved, so your life flows from that vision. If you don't see that vision with the supernatural grace of the Holy Spirit, then you might not be saved, and other symptoms will also result, like lack of fruit, which might well make you wonder if you were ever truly saved. If you continue to practice sin that lacks the supernatural vision of our beloved, and resulting effects of that love, then you might not have ever been saved.

How long can regenerated believers go in the desert without bearing fruit and still be saved? I suppose that deserves another topic.

 

[Tom Butler]

I think there are many people who would give testimony like you described, who actually were saved at the earlier time, but simply did not have the theological language to describe it. Though they may say they "surrendered," or "made Jesus Lord" or "re-dedicated" later, if you pressed further you might find that they did, upon thier accepting of Jesus as savior, they DID also want to live for him, and begin submitting parts of thier lives to him. They simply did not have the language to describe it at the time, and like all of us, once or many times later, they discovered that they needed to increase thier dedication to Christ.

I grant your point. We do have to remember that new believers are what we call baby Christians. It was not until years later that I came to understand some things about my conversion.

I also grant that what we're talking about is the sanctification process, but a new Christian may not use the correct language in describing what is going on in his life. Shoot, as a nine-year-old new believer, I had never even heard of sanctification.

But, at the same time, it raises the question, how were they taught? What kind of gospel was preached to them? Did the preacher or the witness use the correct language themselves in presenting the gospel?

 

[zrs6v4]

No I am not! I am saying exactly what the bible teaches. We do not change, stop sinning, or even promise to stop sinning to be saved.

I think it is funny because everyone is saying something somewhat similar here but from different angles. Anyway, of course we repent of sin. No it is not a work we dont have to try to find and count each individual sin then turn to Christ after we have stopped each individual sin. What is meant by repent of sin is turning from that lifestyle or that deadness it brings and embracing Christ instead. Our eyes are shifted from sinfulness to Christ and to Him we go. In that sense we repent of sin (turn from it). In the process we leave sinful things behind and for the rest of our lives keep repenting and believing. The point I think is vital is not to focus in and try to work out our sins perfecting ourselves. That is a silly and erred practice of holiness that ends up being a sefl-righteous mess half the time. The focus must be on Christ and through Him real the correct motives of repentance in relation to Him will happen. In this sense also we are under His Lordship with His respect or at least once we understand the gravity of who He is. Maybe this understanding needs to come first?

12 Strings: I dont have a problem of terms like rededication. Most terms carry a bad reputation and are misunderstood (and sometimes mishandled like people did with Paul's teaching of liberty under grace). Rededication to me is a repentance basically. A child might repent to the best of his or her knowledge and turning to Christ but also fall away down the road and come again to repentance (or rededication if you will). I think this is not such an easy topic to define when we introduce 5, 6, 7, and 8 year olds or people with minimal gospel knowledge or even mentally disabled people. Works are seen in so many different ways, but childlike works and repentance are what is desired. Its an interesting topic for sure.

 

[zrs6v4]

I grant your point. We do have to remember that new believers are what we call baby Christians. It was not until years later that I came to understand some things about my conversion.

true, yet they experience it

I also grant that what we're talking about is the sanctification process, but a new Christian may not use the correct language in describing what is going on in his life. Shoot, as a nine-year-old new believer, I had never even heard of sanctification.

This is where it is hard for me to distinguish in who God is working on. I think fruits of repentance are necessary to some extent or the conversion is probably not true. We cannot get a grasp on some more difficult scenarios. Yet, I can relate to your comment because I was saved when I was 22 after being in church about 15 years already. I didn't know what repentance or faith were, but I naturally did in light of God. I think when we encounter His very nature there is no other right response but repentance and faith even if we do not get terminology. Later I learned terms and they became useful. Granted I was not a child and had experienced deeper levels of sin and thus was forgiven more if you will. In that sense when I was saved it was more dramatic.

But, at the same time, it raises the question, how were they taught? What kind of gospel was preached to them? Did the preacher or the witness use the correct language themselves in presenting the gospel?

Very true, I knew the shallow ask Jesus into your heart gospel. Funny story is that I was saved through reading Scripture (while unsaved). I saw Jesus the way He was and sin the way it was. God opened up my eyes at that time and changed me. I would say the 15 years I went to church the teaching did not do God much justice in making Him known (Or then again I could have been that blind). This is why shallow Gospels do not save, b/c nobody ever sees God like they need to. They come unfearfully to a loving God, but that love is never known because they do not know the weight and the cost of their sin that that love was expressed through. Or on the other hand, hell is over emphasized to a point where people come to God so they wont go there. This always proves false when the fear wears off so does the false convert. Again, God must be the motivation and all the implications from who He is are secondary factors (yes hell is scary and heaven is sweet, but neither solve our problems in themselves).

 

[freeatlast]

I think it is funny because everyone is saying something somewhat similar here but from different angles. Anyway, of course we repent of sin. No it is not a work we dont have to try to find and count each individual sin then turn to Christ after we have stopped each individual sin. What is meant by repent of sin is turning from that lifestyle or that deadness it brings and embracing Christ instead. Our eyes are shifted from sinfulness to Christ and to Him we go. In that sense we repent of sin (turn from it). In the process we leave sinful things behind and for the rest of our lives keep repenting and believing. The point I think is vital is not to focus in and try to work out our sins perfecting ourselves. That is a silly and erred practice of holiness that ends up being a sefl-righteous mess half the time. The focus must be on Christ and through Him real the correct motives of repentance in relation to Him will happen. In this sense also we are under His Lordship with His respect or at least once we understand the gravity of who He is. Maybe this understanding needs to come first?

12 Strings: I dont have a problem of terms like rededication. Most terms carry a bad reputation and are misunderstood (and sometimes mishandled like people did with Paul's teaching of liberty under grace). Rededication to me is a repentance basically. A child might repent to the best of his or her knowledge and turning to Christ but also fall away down the road and come again to repentance (or rededication if you will). I think this is not such an easy topic to define when we introduce 5, 6, 7, and 8 year olds or people with minimal gospel knowledge or even mentally disabled people. Works are seen in so many different ways, but childlike works and repentance are what is desired. Its an interesting topic for sure.

Repent of sin and no salvation is given. It takes repentance towards God. If He wanted us to repent of sin to get saved He would have said so. And no it is not even turning from a lifestyle. You are talking works salvation. The turn is a result of the salvation brought on by repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also no child of God falls away and needs to re-dedicate their life. 1John 3:9
If they leave (return to sinning) they were not saved to begin with. 1John 2:19

 

[zrs6v4]

Repent of sin and no salvation is given. It takes repentance towards God. If He wanted us to repent of sin to get saved He would have said so. And no it is not even turning from a lifestyle. You are talking works salvation. The turn is a result of the salvation brought on by repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Not only does what your saying make no sense, but you are going against Peter's call to salvation in Acts 2 along with numerous other passages. You cant give yourself away to something without giving up another. when you say "repentance towards God" you mean you turn to God which is exactly what I said. Someone is living their life in sin (a direction not towards God) then when they hear the Gospel they see God and turn to God from whatever they were living for. You are arguing a silly point, and you can't turn your heart to God without turning it from something else, We can't serve two masters so we must give up one to follow the other. If we were all once slaves to sin and it was our master then we must have turned from it for God to become our new master.

Also no child of God falls away and needs to re-dedicate their life. 1John 3:9
If they leave (return to sinning) they were not saved to begin with. 1John 2:19

You are over applying the passages to something that the Bible never intended to apply them to. What John is against is outright turning against foundational truths which is not the same as getting caught up in something or losing heart for awhile etc... Have you as a believer ever had ups and downs? Do you always have a perfect prayer life, do you acknoweldge God perfectly each and every day in giving him thanks? Do you ever get sidetracked with things this world has to offer? Have you ever been bitter in any way? Have you ever had something against someone at church? etc...

Again repentance is a continual thing we sinners will encounter throughout our lives. That does not mean we turn our backs on God and curse Him denying the faith or preaching heresy as those false prophets were doing by harming John's audience. A Gnostic is different than a believer who is in a low spot or who has unknowingly gotten himself into a rut.

 

[Winman]

Honestly I don not know if I am humble or not. If not may the Lord change that. I certainty desire to be all the Lord calls me to be. I do know that I am not the best at getting into print what I am trying to convey in such a fashion that express how it would be done in spoken language.
I will say I know of no time I seek to be evasive. In fact most likely my desire to speak clearly is what most ruffles the feathers of many. I tell you and all again learn the OT teaching of the slave and the piercing of the ear as that is an example (picture) of repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

FAL, I think you are a sincere fellow. I believe you want to know the truth. I am the same, I just want to know the truth.

Where we differ is this, I view sinners much like all the sick and crippled folks that came to Jesus, especially like the woman with an issue of blood. She had been to many doctors, but none could heal her.

Luk 8:43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,

Salvation is not turning over a new leaf, it is not deciding to quit sinning. I think every honest person would say that is VERY difficult. Salvation is realizing that you CANNOT heal yourself. That is what we must repent of, believeing we can earn our own salvation through merit. It is like this poor woman who could not find healing. But she had faith, she had heard of Jesus healing people, she may have witnessed it. She believed Jesus was the promised Christ, the Son of God. And she knew if she but touched him she would be healed. And that is exactly what happened.

Mat 9:20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:
21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.

Did it take years for her to be healed? Let's see.

Luk 8:44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.

This is how salvation happens, IMMEDIATELY. It is not some drawn out process. Notice how Jesus told people who believed they were saved (past tense).

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

When we come to Jesus in faith, he heals us immediately. We are SAVED. We are a new creature, we have the Holy Spirit living in us and are sealed by the Spirit. You can't lose it.

We now have a new nature that naturally wants to obey and please God. You are correct that no true Christian practices sin, they now practice righteousness, because righteousness is now natural to them.

But... we still have the flesh, and the flesh wars against the Spirit. The flesh tempts us just like it did before we were saved. Before we were saved it was natural for us to follow and obey the flesh. Now it is natural for us to obey God. Nevertheless, we are now "babes" in Christ. A baby cannot talk, or walk, or hardly do anything at first. It is the same for a new Christian, he has to learn to walk and talk like a Christian. It takes time. The more a person feeds on the Word of God, the faster a Christian grows. Some folks remain babes in Christ for years, while some grow quickly, depending on one's personal committment to the word of God.

So, new babes in Christ will often fail, just like toddlers often fall and bump their head. But if we pray, read and study the Word of God, we will have victory over sin.

But we are SAVED IMMEDIATELY the moment we trust Jesus to save us.

 

[freeatlast]

FAL, I think you are a sincere fellow. I believe you want to know the truth. I am the same, I just want to know the truth.

Where we differ is this, I view sinners much like all the sick and crippled folks that came to Jesus, especially like the woman with an issue of blood. She had been to many doctors, but none could heal her.

Luk 8:43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,

Salvation is not turning over a new leaf, it is not deciding to quit sinning. I think every honest person would say that is VERY difficult. Salvation is realizing that you CANNOT heal yourself. That is what we must repent of, believeing we can earn our own salvation through merit. It is like this poor woman who could not find healing. But she had faith, she had heard of Jesus healing people, she may have witnessed it. She believed Jesus was the promised Christ, the Son of God. And she knew if she but touched him she would be healed. And that is exactly what happened.

Mat 9:20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:
21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.

Did it take years for her to be healed? Let's see.

Luk 8:44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.

This is how salvation happens, IMMEDIATELY. It is not some drawn out process. Notice how Jesus told people who believed they were saved (past tense).

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

When we come to Jesus in faith, he heals us immediately. We are SAVED. We are a new creature, we have the Holy Spirit living in us and are sealed by the Spirit. You can't lose it.

We now have a new nature that naturally wants to obey and please God. You are correct that no true Christian practices sin, they now practice righteousness, because righteousness is now natural to them.

But... we still have the flesh, and the flesh wars against the Spirit. The flesh tempts us just like it did before we were saved. Before we were saved it was natural for us to follow and obey the flesh. Now it is natural for us to obey God. Nevertheless, we are now "babes" in Christ. A baby cannot talk, or walk, or hardly do anything at first. It is the same for a new Christian, he has to learn to walk and talk like a Christian. It takes time. The more a person feeds on the Word of God, the faster a Christian grows. Some folks remain babes in Christ for years, while some grow quickly, depending on one's personal committment to the word of God.

So, new babes in Christ will often fail, just like toddlers often fall and bump their head. But if we pray, read and study the Word of God, we will have victory over sin.

But we are SAVED IMMEDIATELY the moment we trust Jesus to save us.

I am in agreement with you as long as you are not suggesting that a new believer sometimes practices sin. It is one thing not to know that a certain thing is sin, but altogether different to know it is. The believer does not practice sin once they know something is sin. They may have to be in a serious battle, but they are in the battle. As far as the flesh warring against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh that comes from Gal. and you are taking it out of context as that passage is speaking of the those who want to be perfected by the flesh rather then by the spirit. If you look at it the previous verse says this;
[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 

[Winman]

I am in agreement with you as long as you are not suggesting that a new believer sometimes practices sin. It is one thing not to know that a certain thing is sin, but altogether different to know it is. The believer does not practice sin once they know something is sin. They may have to be in a serious battle, but they are in the battle. As far as the flesh warring against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh that comes from Gal. and you are taking it out of context as that passage is speaking of the those who want to be perfected by the flesh rather then by the spirit. If you look at it the previous verse says this;
[This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

A new believer can practice sin. A fellow may be an alcoholic and come to the Salvation Army for a meal. He hears the gospel and is truly sorry for his sin, he confesses and trusts Christ for salvation. Is he still an alcoholic? Yes. He may now desire to quit drinking and struggle with it, he might not ever truly have victory over it. Is he still saved? If he truly came to Jesus in his heart the answer is yes.

An example of this is Lot. He, his two daughters, and wife escaped with only what they could carry. He lived in a cave. But what did he have? Alcohol! His daughters got him drunk twice, and not just a little drunk, he had relations with both daughters over two nights and didn't even know it! Now that is drunk. And isn't it amazing that he made sure to have wine? But we know from the NT that Lot was saved.

As I heard a preacher once say, "Trusting Jesus will not solve all your problems, but it will solve your BIGGEST problem."

You can't always judge folks by their actions, God sees the heart.

 

[Herald]

A new believer can practice sin.

A believer, whether new or mature, cannot practice sin; at least not if you use the word practice as it is rendered in Scripture.

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Can a believer, new or mature, sin? Certainly. The question is whether they habitually practice sin. Is their life defined by their sin? Do they labor at sinning?

Believers cannot practice sin. Believers do practice righteousness (2 Cor. 5:17).

 

[freeatlast]

A new believer can practice sin. A fellow may be an alcoholic and come to the Salvation Army for a meal. He hears the gospel and is truly sorry for his sin, he confesses and trusts Christ for salvation. Is he still an alcoholic? Yes. He may now desire to quit drinking and struggle with it, he might not ever truly have victory over it. Is he still saved? If he truly came to Jesus in his heart the answer is yes.

An example of this is Lot. He, his two daughters, and wife escaped with only what they could carry. He lived in a cave. But what did he have? Alcohol! His daughters got him drunk twice, and not just a little drunk, he had relations with both daughters over two nights and didn't even know it! Now that is drunk. And isn't it amazing that he made sure to have wine? But we know from the NT that Lot was saved.

As I heard a preacher once say, "Trusting Jesus will not solve all your problems, but it will solve your BIGGEST problem."

You can't always judge folks by their actions, God sees the heart.

First off salvation is not received by feeling sorry for our sin and confessing and trusting Christ for salvation. It takes repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

And no not even a new convert who was an alcoholic practices sin. Such were some of you. 1Cor 6. Not such are some of you. Here in lies the problem with the church today. Many seek ways to deny the word of God to make their teaching above those of God.

While an alcoholic or drug addict has their specific problems to deal with so do we all. No one who is born of God practices sin. 1John 3:9
At salvation the ability to practice sin has ended because of the indwelling Spirit. No longer will any believer ever practice sin. We may still have temptations in many areas, and from time to time fail in any given moment, but we no longer practice sin. Sinning is not that whch defines a true believers daily life, righteous living is. The issue is not if they can practice sin but when they really get saved. A many a persons make professions who do not get saved, and continue in their sin trying to overcome themselves until some later date they do get saved and are finally set free. Again no one who is born of God practices sin.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

 

[freeatlast]

A believer, whether new or mature, cannot practice sin; at least not if you use the word practice as it is rendered in Scripture.

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Can a believer, new or mature, sin? Certainly. The question is whether they habitually practice sin. Is their life defined by their sin? Do they labor at sinning?

Believers cannot practice sin. Believers do practice righteousness (2 Cor. 5:17).

Well said! :thumbs:

 

[JesusFan]

Definitions Source:

"Free Grace" view affirms regeneration and the "inevitability" of good works by believers. "Free Grace" thus postulates that good works are inevitable but should not be taken as evidence of one's salvation or righteous standing before God.

Lordship salvation, on the other hand, criticize opponents as advocating "carnal Christianity" by leaving open the possibility of indulging in sinful behaviour and still sharing equal assurance as one who is in some degree subduing sin.
____________________

In the DVD "Amazing Grace: The History of Theology of Calvinism", I'm trying to understand what the authors of this DVD mean when they say in

Disc 1, Chapter 12, Perseverance of the Saints, Time of 3:55:
_______________________

Arminians wrongly say:
"Lordship of Christ is only something for mature believers"
and
"I'm saved because I prayed the prayer when I was 10 years only, even though I may not be following the Lord now"

While the DVD claims these positions by Armenians, they show photos and names as follows:
Zane Hodge - Author of Absolutely Free! A Biblical Reply to Lordship Salvation
C.I. Scofield
Charles Ryrie
J.N. Darby
__________________________

The narrator of the DVD doesn't explain himself very well so I'm trying to understand what is he talking about. It looks like they are identifying dispensationalists as those that opposes the Perserverance of the Saints by teaching Free Grace, and thus they are opposed to Perserverance of the Saints. This is confusing to me because I thought dispensationalists DID believe in the "Perseverance of the Saints" (or at least a similar term "eternal security" which I'm not sure if it has different nuances to some people.)

So I googled and found this controversy is called the "Lordship Salvation" controversy and there are attempts to define it here:

http://www.theopedia.com/Lordship_salvation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_salvation_controversy

My questions are:
1. Is there an easy way to summarize this controversy? It seems to be a lot of questions about cause and effect, and debates about reverse causality.

Lordship salvation holders would see it as being that there MUST be evidence of a person receiving erternal life, as they would have new natures, and MUST have fruit to show that proof of a real change...

Free will holders would say that your faith in Christ ALONE saves you, that is evidence enough to have been agaorn if you confess with your mouth, believe in your heart jesus as Lord...

hardest issue for both is how much/many works, for how long?

2. Are all dispensationalists listed above supportive of Free Grace Arminianism as the DVD claims? I heard that Darby was a strong supporter of most or almost all of the points of Doctrines of Grace, and he even had a big public debate with Moody who supported Free will.

Think that were/are some prominent "4 pointers" who would be holding to DoG, problem is the hardline "5 pointers" might not see them as being in cal camp!

3. Are there broader or deeper additional differences between dispensationalists and Calvinists, that exist which often set dispensationalists against Calvinists so these two groups often find reasons to be at odds with each other. It seems that since Reformed people reject dispensationalisms idea of a special future for the Nation of Israel, and Dispensationalists (and Baptists) reject "Reformed" views on infant regeneration/baptism, they tend to often pick many battles against each other, resulting in majoring on minor nuances.

Biggest "problem" is that traditionally reformed tend to see it as being 'all or nothing" if one is in the cal camp, so haveto take TULIP and all other tenants, including Covenant theology...

"4 pointers" Amyraldians etc take TULIP as beig CAl for them as in sotierology, but look at other aspects of cal system as being "not required"..

Here is a website that helps answer some of these questions from one dispensationalists point of view:
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgesnb.htm
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/danger05.htm

Please let me know if you have any insights into the questions above. Thanks in advance.

Think that IF on holds to soltierology as a cal, would still need to be listed under cal theology, as all the rest would fit under wethger one tended to see it from a presby/reformed/other baptist prespective!

 

[JesusFan]

A believer, whether new or mature, cannot practice sin; at least not if you use the word practice as it is rendered in Scripture.

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Can a believer, new or mature, sin? Certainly. The question is whether they habitually practice sin. Is their life defined by their sin? Do they labor at sinning?

Believers cannot practice sin. Believers do practice righteousness (2 Cor. 5:17).

How long would a christian be doing a sinful practice before becoming a "practice?"

IF a person has been saved by the grace of God...

WHERE in the Bible, other than the case of extreme measures that forces God to call them home by an early death. as judgement upon their sinful practices...

When would the christian be unable to confess and be fully restored abck to God?

 

[JesusFan]

First off salvation is not received by feeling sorry for our sin and confessing and trusting Christ for salvation. It takes repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

And no not even a new convert who was an alcoholic practices sin. Such were some of you. 1Cor 6. Not such are some of you. Here in lies the problem with the church today. Many seek ways to deny the word of God to make their teaching above those of God.

While an alcoholic or drug addict has their specific problems to deal with so do we all. No one who is born of God practices sin. 1John 3:9
At salvation the ability to practice sin has ended because of the indwelling Spirit. No longer will any believer ever practice sin. We may still have temptations in many areas, and from time to time fail in any given moment, but we no longer practice sin. Sinning is not that whch defines a true believers daily life, righteous living is. The issue is not if they can practice sin but when they really get saved. A many a persons make professions who do not get saved, and continue in their sin trying to overcome themselves until some later date they do get saved and are finally set free. Again no one who is born of God practices sin.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

Do you remember the passage where the Apostle paul listed a same type of listing for sinners, but "as such WERE some of you", but now cleansed and fully restored by the blood of the Lord jesus !

A person can be truely saved, still have sin principle at war within in, and can still fall at times to submitting to his fleshlydesires, but the HS will bring him to confess/repent/forsake, just that matter of timing, not ALL get restored at same time, as each decided just when they will come back to the Father!

Difference is the child of God WILL come back, some sooner, some later, while those 'faking it" , not really saved, never get out of the mire!

 

[freeatlast]

How long would a christian be doing a sinful practice before becoming a "practice?"

IF a person has been saved by the grace of God...

WHERE in the Bible, other than the case of extreme measures that forces God to call them home by an early death. as judgement upon their sinful practices...

When would the christian be unable to confess and be fully restored abck to God?

You keep asking the same question and keep getting the same answers.