Lordship Salvation

[freeatlast]

Do you remember the passage where the Apostle paul listed a same type of listing for sinners, but "as such WERE some of you", but now cleansed and fully restored by the blood of the Lord jesus !

A person can be truely saved, still have sin principle at war within in, and can still fall at times to submitting to his fleshlydesires, but the HS will bring him to confess/repent/forsake, just that matter of timing, not ALL get restored at same time, as each decided just when they will come back to the Father!

Difference is the child of God WILL come back, some sooner, some later, while those 'faking it" , not really saved, never get out of the mire!

No child of God practices sin and No child of God leaves. If they leave they were not saved. 1John 2:19

 

[JesusFan]

You keep asking the same question and keep getting the same answers.

Was hopoing to have some that were more biblical in nature this time!

 

[JesusFan]

No child of God practices sin and No child of God leaves. If they leave they were not saved. 1John 2:19

Why can't they "practice sin?"

When they do sin, why do they?

Dores God allow His own people 'free will" to sin, even for a season, but the sign of being a true Christian and not just professing it , is that God DOES judge and chaistese their conduct, and they will eventually all come back to the Shepard of their souls and be fully retored once they confess to God, acknowledge their sins against Him, as in the prodigal son?

 

[Herald]

How long would a christian be doing a sinful practice before becoming a "practice?"

IF a person has been saved by the grace of God...

WHERE in the Bible, other than the case of extreme measures that forces God to call them home by an early death. as judgement upon their sinful practices...

When would the christian be unable to confess and be fully restored abck to God?

You're asking questions that don't have an easy answer, although there are clues.

Let me pose to you a scenario. Say you know a person who makes a "decision" for Christ. Continuing for a long period of time after their decision the following becomes their regular "practice":

• Hardly ever attends church
• Does not read the bible
• Hardly any Christian friends
• Uses foul language regularly
• Unfaithful to his/her spouse
• Unresponsive to biblical confrontation
• Hardened conscience
• Unwilling to repent

Would you say this person, by their lifestyle, is practicing sin? I mean, is their life defined by their sin?

Compare this to another scenario; another individual who made a "decision" for Christ and has exhibited the following behaviors for a long period of time:

• Misses once in a while, but comes to church when he/she can
• Not as faithful in reading as he/she should be, but is regular in reading
• Many Christian friends
• Slips of the tongue on occasion, but tries to honor God with his/her speech
• Has faced temptation but has remained faithful to his/her spouse
• Has a very tender heart, like David, when confronted
• Has a tender conscience
• Often repents when faced with his/her sin

The second scenario paints a picture of a flawed individual. They sin. In fact, they sin regularly. But they key here is they know they sin and don't make excuses for it. When they are called to repentance, either by the graces of the Word or by a loving Christian friend, they eagerly repent. This is not a person who practices sin even though they commit sin.

I think John had this in mind when he wrote 1 John 3:9. He knew Christians still sinned; but he also knew they were different because of whom they served and because the Holy Spirit lived within them.

 

[freeatlast]

Why can't they "practice sin?"

When they do sin, why do they?

Dores God allow His own people 'free will" to sin, even for a season, but the sign of being a true Christian and not just professing it , is that God DOES judge and chaistese their conduct, and they will eventually all come back to the Shepard of their souls and be fully retored once they confess to God, acknowledge their sins against Him, as in the prodigal son?

Let me ask you a question. Do you read what people reply with? I ask that because you keep asking the same questions.

1) because of 1John 3:9 notice the darkened part.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

2) they choose to

 

[JesusFan]

You're asking questions that don't have an easy answer, although there are clues.

Let me pose to you a scenario. Say you know a person who makes a "decision" for Christ. Continuing for a long period of time after their decision the following becomes their regular "practice":

• Hardly ever attends church
• Does not read the bible
• Hardly any Christian friends
• Uses foul language regularly
• Unfaithful to his/her spouse
• Unresponsive to biblical confrontation
• Hardened conscience
• Unwilling to repent

Would you say this person, by their lifestyle, is practicing sin? I mean, is their life defined by their sin?

Compare this to another scenario; another individual who made a "decision" for Christ and has exhibited the following behaviors for a long period of time:

• Misses once in a while, but comes to church when he/she can
• Not as faithful in reading as he/she should be, but is regular in reading
• Many Christian friends
• Slips of the tongue on occasion, but tries to honor God with his/her speech
• Has faced temptation but has remained faithful to his/her spouse
• Has a very tender heart, like David, when confronted
• Has a tender conscience
• Often repents when faced with his/her sin

The second scenario paints a picture of a flawed individual. They sin. In fact, they sin regularly. But they key here is they know they sin and don't make excuses for it. When they are called to repentance, either by the graces of the Word or by a loving Christian friend, they eagerly repent. This is not a person who practices sin even though they commit sin.

I think John had this in mind when he wrote 1 John 3:9. He knew Christians still sinned; but he also knew they were different because of whom they served and because the Holy Spirit lived within them.

your examples would illustarte difference between making aprofession of Christ, yet not actualy having Christ...

Do you hold with Fal that one can be saved, and be enabled by God to not sin, or at least NEVER be found sinning for a time?

 

[JesusFan]

Let me ask you a question. Do you read what people reply with? I ask that because you keep asking the same questions.

1) because of 1John 3:9 notice the darkened part.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God.

2) they choose to

No disrespect intended, but since you have a novel misunderstanding of the Apostle John in his first Chapter, why would your understanding on this part of his book be any better?

WHAT is "to practice sin?"
WHAT is the "seed?"
WHEN would a christian be "cut off" from grace of God?

 

[JesusFan]

No child of God practices sin and No child of God leaves. If they leave they were not saved. 1John 2:19

So IF someone professed Jesus, got "caught" up in say an adulerous affair, broke it off, went back to his wife, tried to go back to church, should be told"too bad, not saved?"

 

[freeatlast]

So IF someone professed Jesus, got "caught" up in say an adulerous affair, broke it off, went back to his wife, tried to go back to church, should be told"too bad, not saved?"

You are trying to find ways around the word of God and there are none.
Whosoever is born of God doth not (practice) commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born of God

 

[Herald]

your examples would illustarte difference between making aprofession of Christ, yet not actualy having Christ...

Do you hold with Fal that one can be saved, and be enabled by God to not sin, or at least NEVER be found sinning for a time?

You're spot on. That is why I believe there is no way a Christian can know Jesus as Savior without knowing Him as Lord. Jesus is both, and His being both is not dependent on whether a person acquiesces to either.

Each Christian is enabled not to sin due to the resident Holy Spirit and their new nature. However, abiding sin continually wars with the new nature. In this life man is frail and will fall into sin just as easily as a leaf moves with the wind. Do I believe a person can reach a state of near sinless perfection in this life? No.

 

[webdog]

www.faithalone.org/news/y1990/90march2.html

I think this is the proper understanding of the 1 John text in question.

 

[Winman]

www.faithalone.org/news/y1990/90march2.html

I think this is the proper understanding of the 1 John text in question.

I agree Webdog, and this author's view of 1 John 3:9 is how I always understood it, that no man can possibly sin while in the Spirit (the Absolute view).
Of course, I read only the KJB as explained in this article.

Here is the article for all.

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in Him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

This verse is often cited as teaching that "genuine" believers will not practice sin. They will not sin habitually, 1 John 3:9 is said to teach.

Notice how various versions and paraphrases translate the first part of the verse. Some suggest that habitual sin is in view. The New American Standard Version reads: "No one who is born of God practices sin." The Living Bible reads: "The person who has been born into God's family does not make a practice of sinning." The Amplified Bible has: "No one born [begotten] of God [deliberately and knowingly] habitually practices sin."

On the other hand, other translations suggest an absolute understanding—that the born of God person doesn't sin at all. The New King James Version, the one cited above, reads: "Whoever has been born of God does not sin." The New International Version has: "No one who is born of God continues to sin."

The translations and paraphrases show that there are two broad understandings of this verse: habitual and absolute.

The habitual sin view posits that John was teaching the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints here. "True" believers will not sin as a pattern of life. They will not be dominated by sin. They will be characterized by holiness and obedience. Sins for the "genuine" believer are merely occasional aberrations.

The second position has been called the new nature view. According to this view believers never sin as an expression of their born-of-God new natures. The new nature doesn't sin even occasionally. It is sinless. John is viewed as having called his readers to abide in Christ and live in keeping with their born of God new natures.

Which is right?

The habitual sin view cites for evidence the use of the present tense (poiei).

There are grave problems with this argument. For one thing, the present tense, unaided by qualifying words, does not mean what the habitual sin view suggests. In Greek when the present tense occurs it can be understood in a number of ways, one of which is the habitual present. However, the habitual present refers to events which occur over and over again repeatedly. If John was saying this about believers sinning he would be saying that believers do not sin repeatedly. If believers sin daily—as all believers do (cf. 1 John 1:8, 10)—then they sin habitually in the grammatical sense. I. Howard Marshall commented concerning the tense argument:

[It] involves translators in stressing the present continuous form of the verb in a way which they do not do elsewhere in the New Testament. (The Epistles of John, NICNT, p.180)

Similarly, C. H. Dodd writes:

All this [the idea that a believer does not sin habitually] is true. Yet it is legitimate to doubt whether the reader could be expected to grasp so subtle a doctrine simply upon the basis of a precise distinction of tenses without further guidance. (The Johannine Epistles, p. 79)

Another difficulty with this understanding is that one wonders why God would preserve believers from being dominated by sin and yet not from sinning altogether. I. Howard Marshall writes:

If believers do not sin habitually because God's seed remains in Him (3:9b), it is hard to understand why God would preserve believers from some sins, but not from all sins. We must, therefore, wonder whether an important point of interpretation can be made to rest on what has been called a grammatical subtlety. (The Epistles of John, p.180)

The habitual sin view is also ruled out by the context. In verse 5 John said that there is no sin in Christ. He clearly meant that there is absolutely no sin in Him. Then in the very next sentence he said that those who abide in Christ do not sin. He could hardly have meant that Christ sins not at all and those who abide in Him sin but not a lot. John's point is clearly that sin is never an expression of abiding in Christ. When we abide we do not sin at all.

Verse 9 is a further development of this point. No believer ever sins as an expression of his new nature. Insofar as the believer expresses his new nature in his experience, he will not sin because God's seed remains in him (1 John 3:9b).

Alford notes that "If the child of God falls into sin, it is an act against [his] nature" (Hebrews-Revelation, p.465). Likewise, Brooke writes:

The fact that he has been begotten of God excludes the possibility of his committing sin as an expression of his true character, though actual sins may, and do, occur so far as he fails from weakness to realize his true character. (The Johannine Epistles, p.89)

First John 3:9 does not teach the Reformed doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Indeed, no passage does. God perseveres. Saints at best fail daily. First John 3:9 is a call to holiness. Our new natures are pure and holy. Let us live in our experience like we are in our position. Of course, there is a mystery here. John said in 1 John 1:8,10 that believers cannot attain to sinless perfection in their experience. However, we can allow our new natures to dominate our experience so that we live consistently godly lives. May we live like who we are: children of the Holy One who has saved us by His amazing, free grace.

Yet again another example that the KJB and MVs are not the same and can lead to a different understanding of scripture and doctrine.