Meaning of the Words "the Atonement"?

[The Biblicist]

I understand that you are ducking your own words that you said here as to "when" the atonement occured:

No, I am simply telling you what was FINISHED on calvary was PRESENTED in heaven ACCEPTED AS COMPLETED! However, you deny it was presented as completed but you believe it is still in progress and incomplete.

I understand that you want no part of the "types" that are in regard to priesthhod because those 'types" prove that the "atonement" was not MADE until AFTER the sin-offering was sacrificed:

"And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung" (Lev.16:27).

The two goats demonstrate your interpretative error of dichotomy in application. It took two goats and two distinct separate chronological actions in regard to those two goats in order to furnish two truths that were accomplished by ONE person by ONE act on the cross. However, by your logic those two goats would demand two different times or occasions for Christ to fulfill them - FALSE!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, I am simply telling you what was FINISHED on calvary was PRESENTED in heaven ACCEPTED AS COMPLETED!

Again, here are your own words. Please notice that in "bold":

You are confusing when the atonement was made versus when the atonement is applied. It was made at Calvary.

Remember, we were discussing the "order of events," as witnessed by your words here:

Didn't read my post sufficiently I guess. I spelled it out as clear as I could in the order of events.

In regard to the "order of events" you said that the atonement was MADE AT THE CROSS.

You want no part of the "types" that are in regard to priesthhod because those 'types" prove that the "atonement" was not MADE until AFTER the sin-offering was sacrificed:

"And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung" (Lev.16:27).

As usual you try your best to change the subject when you have no answer to verses which prove that you are wrong.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jerry:I believe that is saved believers who died prior to the Cross. But after the Cross no one receives the benefits of His death until they believe and then, at that time, they are baptized or identified with His death (Ro.6:3-4.

So in regard to those who believed after the Cross you are right. The Lord's Jesus' death upon the Cross in and of itself saved no one who believed after the Cross.

His death provided a reconciliation for the world but only those who are reconciled to God by faith come into that reconciliation.

HP: Thank you for your explanation. I agree with what you say above.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again, here are your own words. Please notice that in "bold":

Remember, we were discussing the "order of events," as witnessed by your words here:

In regard to the "order of events" you said that the atonement was MADE AT THE CROSS.

That is right! Jesus IS THE MERCY SEAT! There is no mercy seat in heaven until Jesus entered heaven and sat down. The work was finished on the cross presented in heaven and what happens in heaven is merely present tense on going APPLICATION of what was FINISHED on the cross and presented as finished in heaven with Christ sitting down.

You want no part of the "types" that are in regard to priesthhod because those 'types" prove that the "atonement" was not MADE until AFTER the sin-offering was sacrificed:

"And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung" (Lev.16:27).

As usual you try your best to change the subject when you have no answer to verses which prove that you are wrong.

Leviticus 16:27 is precisely what Hebrews 13:10-13 defines as what happened ON THE CROSS outside the city


10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is right! Jesus IS THE MERCY SEAT!

You said ABSOLUTEY NOTHING that even begins to answer the points which I made. Earlier you said that the "atonement" was "made at Calvary."

The subject we were discussing the "order of events," as witnessed by your words here:

Didn't read my post sufficiently I guess. I spelled it out as clear as I could in the order of events.

You want no part of the "types" that are in regard to priesthhood because those 'types" prove that the "atonement" was not MADE until AFTER the sin-offering was sacrificed:

"And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung" (Lev.16:27).

As usual you try your best to change the subject when you have no answer to verses which prove that you are wrong.

 

[The Biblicist]

You said ABSOLUTEY NOTHING that even begins to answer the points which I made. Earlier you said that the "atonement" was "made at Calvary."

The subject we were discussing the "order of events," as witnessed by your words here:

You want no part of the "types" that are in regard to priesthhood because those 'types" prove that the "atonement" was not MADE until AFTER the sin-offering was sacrificed:

"And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung" (Lev.16:27).

As usual you try your best to change the subject when you have no answer to verses which prove that you are wrong.

Did you read the direct application of Leviticus 16;27 made by the writer of Hebrews in Hebrews 13:12????????? Both goats and both actions apply to Christ on the cross - READ IT!

Do you deny that Jesus Christ Himself is the fulfillment of the mercy seat?????

Go back to school and learn your a,b,c's and then come back to the grown up table if you want to discuss things maturely.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you deny that Jesus Christ Himself is the fulfillment of the mercy seat?????

Of course not but that is not the subject of our discussion.

You said ABSOLUTEY NOTHING that even begins to answer the points which I made. Earlier you said that the "atonement" was "made at Calvary."

The subject we were discussing the "order of events," as witnessed by your words here:

Didn't read my post sufficiently I guess. I spelled it out as clear as I could in the order of events.

You want no part of the "types" that are in regard to priesthhood because those 'types" prove that the "atonement" was not MADE until AFTER the sin-offering was sacrificed:

"And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung" (Lev.16:27).

As usual you try your best to change the subject when you have no answer to verses which prove that you are wrong.

Go back to school and learn your a,b,c's and then come back to the grown up table if you want to discuss things maturely.

Grown ups do not try to change the subject when they no longer want to discuss the subject under discussion and grown ups don't run and hide from verses which prove that their ideas are in error.

 

[The Biblicist]

Of course not but that is not the subject of our discussion.

Where then was the mercy seat when Jesus was on the cross??????? If Jesus IS the mercy seat and the atonement is made when the blood is placed on the mercy seat, then it occurred on the cross!


"And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung" (Lev.16:27).

According to the type, was the blood placed on the mercy seat BEFORE or AFTER the remainder of the goat was brought outside the camp and burned?????

ANSWER: Before!

Hence, if you are demanding the chronological order in the types must dictate the chronological order in the application of the type in the antitype then this order would mean the atonement was made BEFORE Christ went to the cross because Hebrews 13:12 interprets the goat being taken outside the camp to refer to Christ taken outside Jerusalem to Golgatha to the cross. So much for your forcing type chronology upon the antitype.

Jesus was the mercy seat on the cross WHEN the blood was shed = atonement.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

According to the type, was the blood placed on the mercy seat BEFORE or AFTER the remainder of the goat was brought outside the camp and burned?????

ANSWER: Before!

Again you waht to change the subject. Here is a question that is in regard to the subject under discussion:

According to the type was the atonement which the priest made BEFORE or AFTER the sacrifice of the sin offering:

"And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung" (Lev.16:27).

Of course it was AFTER.

Do you agree with that?

 

[The Biblicist]

Again you waht to change the subject. Here is a question that is in regard to the subject under discussion:

According to the type was the atonement which the priest made BEFORE or AFTER the sacrifice of the sin offering:

"And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung" (Lev.16:27).

Of course it was AFTER.

Do you agree with that?

According to the type the goat was sacrficed on the brazen altar before the blood of the goat was placed on the mercy seat. That was the type.

However, the application to the Antitype has them happening simletaneously in ONE person (not two goats and a bullock) in ONE place (not on a altar and outside the camp) as the antitype IS THE MERCY SEAT upon the altar of the cross!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I am not sure exactly what others mean when they use the term "the atonement."

Can anyone tell me exactly what is meant when they use that term?

It seems that some use it as being equivalent to "propitiatory sacrifice" but that certainly cannot be its meaning in the following verse:

"For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17; NIV).
​

There the Greek word translated "make atonement for" is in the "present" tense so it cannot be referring to the Lord Jesus' work at the Cross.

Thanks!

GE:


The Past Present is used - a VERY common feature in the Letter to the Hebrew believers.

Here the meaning is the 'Present of purpose' -- very simple, ""For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" "

Also, to say the Present is used, is not the full truth; because the Subjunctive must obviously have been used. Now I'll go and check up, and ...
...

... there you are, [Even this, I wrote BEFORE I have gone to check up.]
So , now I shall go and check up ...
...
“... ‘genehtai’ … “hina genehtai kai archiereus”, “so that He might become in fact High Priest”.

Then follows INFINITIVE OF NOUN FORCE functioning as object of predicate,
“so that He might become High Priest in fact The To-Make-Atonement-High-Priest ” …
“eis-_TO_-hilaskesthai-archiereus”.

When did that happen?

… when “He Himself took part of the same blood and flesh as the children (man) are partakers of (the same) blood and flesh.”

Christ WAS BORN TO BE: High Priest in order to MAKE ATONEMENT.

Now sing that carol “Chirst _IS_ born …” Present Tense— ‘PAST Present tense’.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Also, to say the Present is used, is not the full truth; because the Subjunctive must obviously have been used.

The Subjunctive was not used but instead the Infinitive. Now let us look at the verse and the one which follows:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted" (Heb.2:17-18).

The Lord Jesus was made like his brothers in every way so therefore He Himself suffered when He was tempted. And because He knows what it is like to be tempted He is able to help us when we are tempted.

The Greek word translated "because" is gar and it is a "conjuction" and "It adduces the cause or gives the Reason of a preceding statement or opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So we can understanding that the reason why He was made a High Priest and why He is making atonement for the people is so that He can help those who are now being tempted.

So this is referring to helping those who are now struggling with tempations and infirmities:

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Heb.4:15).

His role as High Priest and making atonement is in regard to Him doing things for us while He is heaven and not anything that He did while on the earth:

"For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law" (Heb.8:4).

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The Subjunctive was not used but instead the Infinitive. Now let us look at the verse and the one which follows:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted" (Heb.2:17-18).

The Lord Jesus was made like his brothers in every way so therefore He Himself suffered when He was tempted. And because He knows what it is like to be tempted He is able to help us when we are tempted.

The Greek word translated "because" is gar and it is a "conjuction" and "It adduces the cause or gives the Reason of a preceding statement or opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So we can understanding that the reason why He was made a High Priest and why He is making atonement for the people is so that He can help those who are now being tempted.

So this is referring to helping those who are now struggling with tempations and infirmities:

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Heb.4:15).

His role as High Priest and making atonement is in regard to Him doing things for us while He is heaven and not anything that He did while on the earth:

"For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law" (Heb.8:4).

RE:

The Subjunctive was not used but instead the Infinitive. Now let us look at the verse and the one which follows:
………………

GE:

No; now you go have a look again at what you’re talking, friend. I think you do not realise well enough what you are saying and have said, yourself.

Let us look what YOU have said,

"For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17; NIV).
​

There the Greek word translated "make atonement for" is in the "present" tense so it cannot be referring to the Lord Jesus' work at the Cross.

“… the Greek word translated "make atonement for" is in the "present" tense …”

'Now', _you_ come and say,

The Subjunctive was not used but instead the Infinitive.

Now let us look at the _word_, “… the Greek word translated "make atonement for"” …

… genehtai … Aorist Subjunctive, "he MIGHT become", and a NOUN : an Infinitive of NOUN Force, "He might become The To-Make-Atonement-High-Priest ” … “eis-_TO_-hilaskesthai-archiereus” = “… the Greek word translated "make atonement for"” because it is NOT, “… the Greek word translated "make atonement for"” … it is … the Greek word translated "MIGHT make atonement for".

Sluk jou woorde, and then come back to ”the verse and the one which follows” …

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jerry Shugart,

You are a Seventh-day Adventist and are trying to sell us the SDA abomination of an 'investigative judgment' since 1844.

THE WHOLE WORLD knows that; it is LONG no exasperating 'truth' to which no one had had an answer, it came so out of the blue and suddenly, everybody was caught unawares, not knowing what to answer.

But that time is PAST ... except for the poor disillusioned Seventh-day Adventists.


Now WITHOUT HAVING HAD A LOOK at it in the text, I shall bring to your attention, ANOTHER FRAUDULENT manipulation of the Scriptures which you people THRIVE on and this abomination of an IJ is totally dependent,


Jerry Shugart ...........................
"For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law" (Heb.8:4).

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart
I understand that you are ducking your own words that you said here as to "when" the atonement occured:

The Biblicist:

No, I am simply telling you what was FINISHED on calvary was PRESENTED in heaven ACCEPTED AS COMPLETED! However, you deny it was presented as completed but you believe it is still in progress and incomplete.

GE:

You are absolutely correct!

Well answered!

Warning!

It won't help!

 

[lakeside]

One reason Jewish people reject Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah is because “nothing changed” after he came. Jesus didn’t immediately usher in peace for all mankind and didn’t end suffering forever. What Christians believe happens at the Second Coming, Jews believe should have happened at the First Coming if Jesus truly was the Messiah. Why are there two comings, and why was the Second Coming delayed?

The Catholic Church answers it ,this way;-

The Church’s traditional understanding is that at his First Coming Christ came as Suffering Servant who redeemed mankind and made salvation possible ( Is 53); at his Second Coming, Christ will arrive as Conquering King who will make a new heavens and a new earth ( Is 11).

Why has there been, in human terms, such a long “delay” between the First and Second Comings? One possibility is that Christ is allowing us to participate in his work of salvation by our efforts to build God’s kingdom on earth in union with his perfect work. Only Christ could make atonement for the sins of all mankind and win for us universal redemption. But we can and must apply the fruits of his work to our lives and make them available to those who have yet to receive them. And, by God’s grace, the work of the Church on earth repairs the brokenness of mankind and this fallen world. In short, God does what only he can do; but he does not relieve us of the obligation to do what we can do.

This concept is similar to a Jewish religious obligation called tikkun olam, which means the “repair of the world” or the “perfection of the world.” While many understand tikkun olam in a purely ethical sense of creating a just society here and now, it also has a messianic component: It is believed that performing mitzvot (following the commandments and doing good deeds) and thereby participating in tikkun olam will hasten the coming of the Messiah.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Again, here are your own words. Please notice that in "bold":

Remember, we were discussing the "order of events," as witnessed by your words here:

In regard to the "order of events" you said that the atonement was MADE AT THE CROSS.

You want no part of the "types" that are in regard to priesthhod because those 'types" prove that the "atonement" was not MADE until AFTER the sin-offering was sacrificed:

"And the bullock for the sin offering, and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the holy place, shall one carry forth without the camp; and they shall burn in the fire their skins, and their flesh, and their dung" (Lev.16:27).

As usual you try your best to change the subject when you have no answer to verses which prove that you are wrong.

GE:


AH! The CRUX of the issue!!!

This the HEART! This is what even non-SDAs DO NOT KNOW OR UNDERSTAND … THIS:

“the "atonement" was not MADE until AFTER the sin-offering was sacrificed”

Exactly!

Read the whole of the Day of Atonement part of Exodus 16; don’t extract a word or a phrase, but consider the entire DAY’S procedures THE ONE ATONEMENT ACCOMPLISHED.

No ‘stages’; both he-goats and all the high priest’s actions ‘made atonement’ NONE more so than the VERY LAST AND CLOSING actions and events of the day.

NOTICE that the high priest by “COMING OUT” of the sanctuary, “made atonement” … ‘FINAL’, atonement; NOT THE SACRIFICE AT FIRST!

Not even Christ’s sacrifice “FINISHED” atonement / reconciliation / righteousness / forgiveness of sins whatever it may and can and IS called.

No; sacrifice “FINISHED” Sacrifice on the cross.

By giving his spirit into the hands of his Father, Jesus EXITED THE Passover Suffering of Yahweh.
That Last and Final sin-atoning Passover Suffering of Christ, He ENTERED INTO and UPON, in this night, RIGHT HERE:
Mark 14:12,17, Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 John 13:1,30
And He went THROUGH the Last and Final sin-atoning Passover Suffering of Christ, in

THAT, SAME, ONE, night and day of the Passover of Yahweh,

first,
in “spirit” being tapped and the “LEAVEN” of his LIFE being “REMOVED OUT” through the anguish of his soul,

and next,
being “KILLED”, and He DIED, and GAVE his Life-BLOOD.

THEN, Jesus cried with a loud voice : “FINISHED!”

But had God done with Christ? Had God finished atonement? No!

The sacrifice of Jesus would have been of no more worth than the sacrifices the priests on earth are every year bringing HAD GOD NOT RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD!

HERE is the antitypical equivalent of the earthly priests’ applying the blood TO THE ALTAR INSIDE THE MOST HOLY PLACE, an ‘OFFERING’ no longer in the sense of the killing of the sacrifice, but an ‘OFFERING’ in the sense of a PRESENTATION.

Which symbolism the passover enacted by the REAPING and the BRINGING and the WAVING of the FIRST SHEAF : “BEFORE THE LORD” …

… and the judgment day or day of atonement enacted by the RELEASING of the he-goat “for Azazel” the type of “Saviour Healer Mighty God” Jesus Christ “Whom God RAISED FROM THE DEAD”. .

“… "atonement" was not MADE until AFTER the sin-offering was sacrificed” …
AND,
“OFFERED BEFORE THE LORD”, THE LIVING …
… IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE of his Own Being …
… IN THE Full Fellowship of God Tri-Une the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

One reason Jewish people reject Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah is because “nothing changed” after he came. Jesus didn’t immediately usher in peace for all mankind and didn’t end suffering forever. What Christians believe happens at the Second Coming, Jews believe should have happened at the First Coming if Jesus truly was the Messiah. Why are there two comings, and why was the Second Coming delayed?
............................

GE:

"second coming" is actually a misnomer. The New Testament calls Jesus' return at judgment day, his Appearance.

"second coming" is actually a misnomer because Jesus' REAL 'second coming' is his Resurrection from the dead.

"Everyone that confesses: 'Jesus-Christ-come-in-the-flesh' [FROM THE DEAD] is of God;
everyone that does NOT confess THIS JESUS (the Jesus-Christ-come-in-the-flesh-FROM-THE-DEAD), IS,
is not of God and is the antichrist." 1John 4:2,3.

 

[lakeside]

GE:

"second coming" is actually a misnomer. The New Testament calls Jesus' return at judgment day, his Appearance.

"second coming" is actually a misnomer because Jesus' REAL 'second coming' is his Resurrection from the dead.

"Everyone that confesses: 'Jesus-Christ-come-in-the-flesh' [FROM THE DEAD] is of God;
everyone that does NOT confess THIS JESUS (the Jesus-Christ-come-in-the-flesh-FROM-THE-DEAD), IS,
is not of God and is the antichrist." 1John 4:2,3.

I only listen to the One True Church that was formed by Jesus and Jesus formed His One and only True Church on His Apostles, so tell me Gerhard did Jesus form your church on His apostles or was your church invented in the 19th century by a mere man or woman ?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry Shugart,

You are a Seventh-day Adventist and are trying to sell us the SDA abomination of an 'investigative judgment' since 1844.

Gehard, do you go artound making unfounded accusations against anyone who disagrees with your ideas?

I am not a Seventh-Day Adventist.

No; now you go have a look again at what you’re talking, friend.

You are confused because the "infinitive" is referring to the "mood" and not the "tense.

AH! The CRUX of the issue!!!

This the HEART! This is what even non-SDAs DO NOT KNOW OR UNDERSTAND … THIS:

“the "atonement" was not MADE until AFTER the sin-offering was sacrificed”

Exactly!

That is what I have been saying throughout this thread.