Is God Able To regenerate sinners before their faith in Christ?

[Herald]

And the verses to prove this are in Acts ch. 29, Isaiah ch. 67, Jude ch. 2, 1 John ch. 6, and Rev. ch. 23.

Brother, prove what? Just to be clear, I believe regeneration is part of the salvation process (part of the ordo salutis) and precedes faith. your writings indicate that regeneration does not precede faith. I just want to make sure you're not agreeing with me by accident.

 

[convicted1]

Brother, prove what? Just to be clear, I believe regeneration is part of the salvation process (part of the ordo salutis) and precedes faith. your writings indicate that regeneration does not precede faith. I just want to make sure you're not agreeing with me by accident.

The point I am trying to make is that regeneration is a new birth, which means life. One does not have life outside of being in Christ. Those that hear shall live, not those that live shall hear.

 

[InTheLight]

[Paul] was struck out of the saddle...

I am convinced the Macedonian family was the same way. God implanted the regeneration into their hearts before Peter ever saw the vision.

The jailor for the Philippians would be another example. I'm convinced that the regeneration had taken place before the earthquake.

Each of these already NEW they were a sinner. It wasn't just some intellectual ascent, but a sudden deep awareness and conviction that changed their living.

Paul was riding a horse on the way to Damascus?

The Philipian jailer was already regenerated when he asked "What must I do to be saved?"

These people were under a conviction of sin?

Where, oh where, does it say this in the Bible?

And the verses to prove this are in Acts ch. 29, Isaiah ch. 67, Jude ch. 2, 1 John ch. 6, and Rev. ch. 23.

Thanks! :laugh:

 

[MB]

Can the Lord actually even regenerate one prior to them placing faith in Jesus?

Able to yes but the real question is does He?
MB

 

[agedman]

Paul was riding a horse on the way to Damascus?

The Philipian jailer was already regenerated when he asked "What must I do to be saved?"

These people were under a conviction of sin?

Where, oh where, does it say this in the Bible?



Thanks! :laugh:

Well I suppose Saul could have been riding an armadillo. Maybe not. Wasn't he a Texan? Didn't he fight the good fight like those brave young men at the Alamo?

It might be just as much a stretch to think he was walking.

In the time of his living, authorities rode (consider Christ entering Jerusalem on a donkey). It was part of the standard display of authority. Saul, being a leader and the chief go getter of the bad folks for the political wing of the church of his day, would have most likely been riding on something.

Maybe he, being as independent, self sufficient, and self important as Texas folks think of themselves, hopped along on a strong Texas horny toad under each foot.

The point of the post, in which I admitted that I was sure to hold a minority view on regeneration, shows examples of that view that most will probably not agree.

My view is that at the very point of salvation regeneration can take place (which most hold) but not in EVERY situation. Regeneration certainly doesn't come AFTER salvation as I think some hold, because God doesn't mingle the carnal with the Holy. They are at war with each other as the Scriptures teach.

In my minority view, because it is God the does the regenerating work, and I view regeneration as on a continuum from the point that "he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:..." as Paul stated, the regeneration of those I mentioned could have been as described.

 

[agedman]

Able to yes but the real question is does He?
MB

Perhaps I have shown examples of that being done.

I am not in concrete on any example, but I think that the view might also be seen in the awakening and call of Samuel

The Scriptures discuss how Samuel served and lived before the lord as a very young boy.

Yet, God had not called him. Does not the Scripture say,"Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither was the word of the LORD yet revealed unto him."

And yet, it came to pass that the very presence of God waking him out of his sleep. (Perhaps an example of the awakening God does to the unbeliever.)

Eli (a messenger of God) perceiving it as God's work of calling said,"Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, LORD; for thy servant hears. So Samuel went and lay down in his place." (Samuel had ears to hear the message of God.)

Then we see the presence of God appearing before Samuel, and the response. "And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant hears."

 

[webdog]

Isn't that what he just said? Could you clarify what you see as different?

Its opposite of what he said. I believe regeneration occurs simultaneously with faith / union with Christ, and he stated it occurs prior to.

 

[webdog]

Not too difficult a question. I am amazed at some of the answers that would make Pelagius blush.

"I must . .

"Man must . .

"You can't be forgiven until you . .

Unless God does it, there is no salvation. Jonah finally got it right (with seaweed tugging at his toga) when he said, "Salvation is of the Lord".

Strawman. Of course its all God.

 

[agedman]

Its opposite of what he said. I believe regeneration occurs simultaneously with faith / union with Christ, and he stated it occurs prior to.

Why can't it be that both are correct?

Is it because the view is that regeneration is a single event?

I consider that the regeneration is not a single event, but a process of awakening on a continuum even until we are absent from this earthy form.

2Co 4:16, Eph 4:23, Col 3:10

 

[MB]

Perhaps I have shown examples of that being done.

I am not in concrete on any example, but I think that the view might also be seen in the awakening and call of Samuel

The Scriptures discuss how Samuel served and lived before the lord as a very young boy.

Yet, God had not called him. Does not the Scripture say,"Now Samuel did not yet know the LORD, neither was the word of the LORD yet revealed unto him."

And yet, it came to pass that the very presence of God waking him out of his sleep. (Perhaps an example of the awakening God does to the unbeliever.)

That isn't implied at all.

Eli (a messenger of God) perceiving it as God's work of calling said,"Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, LORD; for thy servant hears. So Samuel went and lay down in his place." (Samuel had ears to hear the message of God.)

Then we see the presence of God appearing before Samuel, and the response. "And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant hears."

I'm sorry but to imply that Samuel was regenerated is just not true. Regeneration is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You should know that the Holy Spirit wasn't sent to dwell in men until after Christ. He is the comforter spoken of by Christ. There is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testiment. Not that He wasn't there in the old testiment
MB

 

[agedman]

You should know that the Holy Spirit wasn't sent to dwell in men until after Christ. He is the comforter spoken of by Christ. There is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testiment. Not that He wasn't there in the old testiment
MB

Hold up here and let's visit this concept.

It is true that while Christ was on earth the Holy Spirit was not yet generally poured out to the world (reproves the world of ...), but that does not mean that the very Spirit of God was not specifically placed into the hearts and a controlling factor over the lives of some of those in the Old Testament.

For instance:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, and in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship."

And again,

"And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them...
And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly."

And how many times have we heard:
"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;..."

As if this is not the direct quest given by Christ to EVERY believer.

These are a few of the passages that clearly teach the the Holy Spirit of God was absolutely involved and indwelt and came upon specific people in the Old Testament.

 

[JesusFan]

Strawman. Of course its all God.

Think that He was stating that UNLESS God intervenes and grants us the means to believe in jesus, being dead in our sinful state, we need Him to grant to us new hearts/minds that will than allow us to receive jesus by faith and become saved!

Its all part of the "salvation process!"

 

[JesusFan]

Not too difficult a question. I am amazed at some of the answers that would make Pelagius blush.

"I must . .

"Man must . .

"You can't be forgiven until you . .

Unless God does it, there is no salvation. Jonah finally got it right (with seaweed tugging at his toga) when he said, "Salvation is of the Lord".

Asking another way...

Can sinners actually EVEN be able to place faith in jesus in order to get saved IF they are not regenerated as of yet by God?

 

[percho]

This verse must be backward.

by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;

Should be.

by renewing of the Holy Spirit and the washing of regeneration;

I don't know for the next verse would be messed up then.

 

[convicted1]

Hold up here and let's visit this concept.

It is true that while Christ was on earth the Holy Spirit was not yet generally poured out to the world (reproves the world of ...), but that does not mean that the very Spirit of God was not specifically placed into the hearts and a controlling factor over the lives of some of those in the Old Testament.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Jesus told them here that the Spirit is coming to take up His abode in their lives on a permanent basis. Not so in the OT. Look at all the miracles that the Disciples did, and they did not get the permanent indwelling of the Spirit until Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22.

For instance:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, and in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship."

He was filled with the Spirit to do the work that God had given him to do. But this, in no way, implies a permanent indwelling.

And again,

"And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them...
And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly."

Again, look @ the wording "upon him." The Spirit would move upon people and they would do what God wanted them to do, and then leave. Now, He comes in and stays.

And how many times have we heard:
"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;..."

This was spoken of in Isaiah and Jesus spoke of this verse in the synagogue and told them that today is that scripture fulfilled in their ears. The Spirit wasn't upon Him, but was IN HIM. Remember, the sign that John got concerning Jesus was that the One who he saw the Spirit abode upon, and remaining, is Him, the Messiah that had been prophesied about.

As if this is not the direct quest given by Christ to EVERY believer.

These are a few of the passages that clearly teach the the Holy Spirit of God was absolutely involved and indwelt and came upon specific people in the Old Testament.

Correct, they came upon them, and maybe even filled them for a certain period of time, but the Spirit never permanently indwelt anyone under the Law, or even prior to the Law being given to Moses by God.

 

[convicted1]

Asking another way...

Can sinners actually EVEN be able to place faith in jesus in order to get saved IF they are not regenerated as of yet by God?

Look Brother, if they are not regenerated, they aren't saved. One isn't regenerated(new birth), and not have eternal life. Salvation isn't an "over time" process.....meaning you don't get saved over a period of time. One isn't given a "new birth"/"regenerated", and then days/months/years later, saved/placed in Christ. We are regenerated because we have been placed in Christ. Not regenerated to be placed in Christ @ a later date.


That's putting the "theological cart" before the "theological horse".

 

[kyredneck]

.......I am amazed at some of the answers that would make Pelagius blush.......

I am amazed at how some will unabashedly dictate from God's word what God can or cannot do with His own.

 

[kyredneck]

....Regeneration cannot possibly precede faith, because until you believe you are still in your sins.

Jn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Do you understand what Jesus is saying here? Unless you believe you will die in your sins. So how in the world can you be spiritually alive until you first believe?.....

A little farther on down in the same chapter speaking to the same audience Christ says:

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do....
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8

Same as in chapter 10 He tells them:

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. Jn 10:26

[edit] It is made so clear in passages such as Jn1:13 & 3:21 that God had already wrought within those that recieved Him. Those who came to the light were already born of God. Why do so many reject this wonderful truth?

 

[kyredneck]

Is God Able.....?

Is God able?

Really JF, think about what your saying; you're asking if He who spoke the universe into existence is able?

Is God able?

 

[MB]

Hold up here and let's visit this concept.

It is true that while Christ was on earth the Holy Spirit was not yet generally poured out to the world (reproves the world of ...), but that does not mean that the very Spirit of God was not specifically placed into the hearts and a controlling factor over the lives of some of those in the Old Testament.

For instance:

"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, and in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship."

And again,

"And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them...
And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly."

And how many times have we heard:
"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;..."

As if this is not the direct quest given by Christ to EVERY believer.

These are a few of the passages that clearly teach the the Holy Spirit of God was absolutely involved and indwelt and came upon specific people in the Old Testament.

You should know something about me. I do not trust a refference with out the book, chapter, and verse being indicated. Myself I always give that, so who ever I'm speaking with can look it up for them selves.

There is not one verse in the old testiment that indicates that men were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. If there were then Christ died in vain because the blood of bulls, sheep, and the like could not save man only the precious blood of Jesus Christ can save. They had no Christ to believe in. Only God and they were set aside for there belief to hear the gospel after the death of Christ. Even David said;
Psa 16:8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

David was not indwelt nor could he have been until the atonement had been paid.
I'm sorry but the scriptures you've presented do not stand as proof.


MB