Is God Able To regenerate sinners before their faith in Christ?

John 1:11
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.



John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Matthew 23:
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] [Some manuscripts include here words similar to Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47.]
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. a. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[Psalm 118:26]”


1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

 

Convicted1;
Post 35 is excelent Amen

 

I agree with this, but I wonder about John the Baptist. Was he indwelt from birth to death or only temporarily?

Luke 1
15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’

Luke 7
28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.”


Why would John the Baptist be indwelt with the Holy Spirit before birth if he wasn't going to be indwelt his entire life? Maybe he's a special exception to the rule.

 

I would not disagree, but neither would I hold your statement as securely as totally agreeable. I would put it in questionable with consideration range.

But first, you may have missed that I was responding to the thinking that stated that the Holy Spirit never indwelt a person in the Old Testament. MB's statement, "You should know that the Holy Spirit wasn't sent to dwell in men until after Christ."

My response had nothing to say that the indwelling or the putting upon was temporary or not.

All the prophets of God certainly had the Spirit of God and whether that was temporary or not is not always stated.

It is clearly stated in the case of Saul who prophesied with the prophets ( 1 Samuel 11:6), but then the Scriptures clearly indicate that the spirit left Saul. ( 1 Samuel 16:14) So, it very much could be temporary. I am not yet convinced that in every case it was temporary.

I doubt that Elijah's was temporary because he was caught up in the chariot.

I might even question Elisha's as temporary for even after death when they threw a dead man upon Elisha's bones the man jumped up alive.

I doubt Moses' was temporary, for God dealt directly with him even in his death.

I consider that John the Baptist was indwelt from the time before he was born because of his reaction in the belly when Mary visited her cousin.

Samuel from the time God awakened him might be another.

Therefore, MB's thinking (of no indwelling of the Spirit of God) and yours (that it is only temporary) can only be applied to the Holy Spirit being generally poured out upon the whole world after Christ had ascended. Not to specific individuals of the Old Testament.

 

Jn 8:43 is the only verse in all the Bible that could possibly be construed to say unregenerate men are unable to hear the word of God. Even if that were absolutely true in this one single verse, you cannot assume to apply this verse to 100% of men. Why? because the Lord himself said unregenerate men hear him.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus said the "way side" are those that HEAR. They can hear the word of God. The problem is not a lack of ability to hear, the problem is sin. Before they are willing to believe the devil takes the word out of their hearts.

The unregenerate can not only hear, they can believe if they so choose to do so.

Jn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The spiritually dead can hear the word of God. And if they are willing to hear the word of God and believe they will be made alive.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

This warning only makes sense if it is possible for a man to hear the promise of the gospel and accept or reject it. Why warn someone if Irresistible Grace is true? The elect have no choice but to believe, the unelect have no choice but to reject the gospel. So what possible meaning could any warning like this have? NONE. And notice in verse 2 that these unbelievers heard the word.

And going back to John 8, Jesus's language implies it is possible for these persons to believe.

Jn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Now, you may overlook that little word "if", but it is very important. It shows that these person's fate is not sealed in stone. Jesus is simply saying that if they choose to believe not they will die in their sins, but if they choose to believe they shall be saved.

No man can be regenerated, spritually alive until he first believes. Until you believe you are condemned and spiritually dead in sins. You cannot possibly be spiritually alive until your sins are removed, and you must first believe to have your sins washed away and forgiven.

 

I say regeneration is what brought the faith, which you hearing of, brought you the Holy Spirit by which you will receive your regeneration. It is the means by which you shall be saved.

(Is this baptism in Luke 12:50) But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! (the same baptism spuken of in Matt. 20:22?) But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

What is that baptism Jesus asked if they were able to follow him in? Is it not to die and be resurrected to life again? Is that not what water baptism pictures? James and John's mother had asked Jesus about them ruling with him in his kingdom and the above followed her question. Jesus also said truly they would follow him in this baptism, death and resurrection, but that it was for the Father to decide who would sit where.

Jesus had already spoken of this same thought in chapter 19 of Matthew.
That those who followed him, his disciples, in the regeneration (death and resurrection) would sit with him in the throne of his glory.

Now regeneration and faith. When did the faith come, what is it, and whose regeneration brought it?\


The following I posted to a thread calling faith, to trust.
I have not checked, however how many times out of that 248 times it is used is it preceded by the definite article the and does the definite article preceding "pisteuō" change, to trust which implies to me something which originates from within one, instead of, the trust, which to me implies something which originates from another source?
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Very very seldom in KJV which I normally use is the, the there even though it is in the Greek. Best example is Gal 3:14 which should end as the faith. By ending with, the faith, it brings to question whose or what rather than with an understanding of it being yours.

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we (Gentiles) might receive the promise of the Spirit (blessing of Abraham of in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed) through the faith. With being preceded by the it would be understood as (of Jesus Christ) as in verse 22.

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through the faith of Jesus Christ. Compared verse 22 That the promise, by faith of Jesus Christ, might be given, to them that believe.

Who are the, that believe? John 10:26,27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

YLT Gal. 3:2 this only do I wish to learn from you -- by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith?

this only do I wish to learn from you -- by works of law the Spirit did ye (the sheep) receive, or by the hearing of faith?


What is faith? Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
God beget in the egg/seed of the virgin woman, she conceived and brought forth a man child and called him Jesus.

Jesus the man child the only begotten of woman by God, was sinless, without spot or blemish and yet he died. Dead as a doornail. As dead as dead can be. Galatians 3:23 says, Before the faith came. And 3:25 says, After the faith did come. What was the faith that came? We have a dead man child the Christ (the anointed) only begotten of God, the seed of David who was to sit on his David's throne, the one seed of Abraham the one seed to whom the promises were made. DEAD! Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

I ask you. When did the faith come?
Paul asked. by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith?

In the water baptism picture, after Christ was made alive coming straightway out of the water, was he renewed with the Spirit of God in the form of a dove or as Acts 2:33 says received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit and at that time Romans 1:4 declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead?

Titus 3:5,6 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Which he shed on us after receiving it by faith.

If I go not away (DIE) the comforter will not come.

 

The scriptures NEVER say the Holy Spirit makes one alive so they are able to believe, the scriptures say the exact opposite, that a person must believe to have life.

The scriptures do teach that the Holy Spirit reproves or convicts of sin, they say the Holy Spirit teaches or enlightens a man. But it is never said the Holy Spirit makes one spiritually alive so that they are able to believe. You cannot show a single verse of scripture to support that, that is a totally man-made doctrine.

 

The Holy Spirit puts you in Christ, that is Christ in you, the faith you heard of by which you received, were given the Spirit. Christ is the one that has been made alive. The HS puts you in him and him in you. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. You will be dead until then.

Critique the total post not just the lead statement. Should take at least an hour or two to read and study the scriptures applied to any thoughts.

What makes you able to believe is being a sheep.

 

This is curious. "Questionable consideration", Why? You do believe the scriptures are with out error? Christ asended and it is no mystery that He descended.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I brought this up because many Calvinist believe oldtestiment saints were saved just as we are today by the blood of Christ.

You stated;

Don't you think that indwelt is a good example of permanency ?

Coming upon and leaving does not indicate an indwelling of the Spirit.

If so why did he have doubts even after he baptized our Lord? I know that since my Salvation I have never doubted it. Why would John the Baptist doubt the idenity of Christ?Certianly he was a much greater saint than myself

If they weren't indwelt by the Spirit how is it they could have been saved ?. And if they were indwelt How come they all weren't wisked away in a firey chariot as Elijah?
MB

 

There is no doubt at all that the Bible teaches that God must do a work in the hearts of men before they can respond to the Gospel.

However, the battles that rage so constantly on the B.B. are nothing new. These questions have led to some of the most heated theological arguments throughout the centuries; it was the issue between Augustine of Hippo and the followers of Pelagius in the Fifth Century; it was at the heart of the doctrine of the Reformers when they split from the Church of Rome; it cropped up again at the Synod of Dort in Holland in 1618; it divided the General and Particular Baptists in the Seventeenth Century, Whitefield and Wesley in the Eighteenth, and ‘Old School’ and ‘New School’ theology in America in the Nineteenth. It rumbles on between the ‘neo-evangelical’ and ‘Reformed’ churches in Britain today. More importantly, it was the question that Paul threshed out with the Galatians (eg. Gal. 3:3), and the point of division between our Lord and the Pharisees (eg. Matt. 23:4; John 6 :28f). The question is this: is the New Birth monergistic or synergistic? Is it attributable solely to God, or is it something in which Man must also take a part?

The teaching of the Lord Jesus as He spoke to Nicodemus in John 3 could hardly be more clear; the mighty power that gives new life to sinners comes from God, the Holy Spirit, and from Him alone. We see this first of all in the very term, 'born again.' Our Lord could have used a variety of terms for this which Nicodemus might have found easier to understand; “You must start again….”, “…..take a new path”, “…..make a new beginning”. But all these terms involve things that we can do for ourselves. The one event in our lives over which we have no control is our birth. The time, the place, our gender, our weight and so forth are absolutely nothing that we can influence. The time simply comes for us to arrive and we are born.

We can then go on to look at the Greek word translated here as ‘again.’ This word, anothen, can also mean’ from above’ (2). Indeed, that is its meaning in every other instance where it appears in John’s Gospel. For example, later in this very chapter (v31) John uses the word when he says, ‘He who comes from above is above all’.

Anothen appears in Matthew 27:51 when, as Jesus died, ‘The veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom’, and in James 1:17 where we are told, ‘…..every perfect gift is from above’. Only in Galatians 4:9 does anothen clearly mean 'again.' Here in John 3:3, most translations have rightly rendered the word as again because of the context. Nicodemus obviously understood it to mean that since he replied (v4), “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter into his mother’s womb and be born a second time?” Now it may well be that the conversation took place in Aramaic, not Greek, but it seems to me that the Apostle John chose the word (under the influence of the Holy Spirit) deliberately to bring out this second meaning. “Nicodemus”, our Lord seems to be saying, “You need a birth that all your learning and religious observance cannot give you; you need a birth that comes from above”.

The same point can be seen in John 3:6. ‘That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit’. As we have seen, the word 'flesh' (Gk. sarx), when it is contrasted with Spirit (Gk. pneuma) usually refers to sinful human nature (eg. Rom. 8:4ff). What this verse tells us is that anything that comes from Man, from the flesh, is flawed at source, and to suggest that there can be any human agency in the New Birth is to say that the flesh can give birth to spirit. Why is this? Why is Man so helpless to do anything to make himself right with God? Consider Ephesians 2:1; ‘And you [God] made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins’. Mankind’s condition is one of spiritual death. Now, it is all very well calling on men and women to put their trust in Christ; it is all very well to tell them how wonderful it is to be a Christian, to warn them of the perils of Hell and to entice them with the blessings of Heaven- all these things are right and proper- but if they are dead, then unless Almighty God breathes new life into their hearts, all your efforts will ultimately be in vain because dead people can’t hear. Gospel preaching is certainly of the utmost importance (1Cor 1:21) but only as God uses the preached word to bring sinners to salvation.

Just in case not everyone is convinced by the evidence presented so far, consider John 1:11-13; ‘He came to His own (i.e. His Jewish compatriots, God’s chosen people under the Old Covenant), and His own did not receive him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe on His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God’. Do you see what this is saying? Coming from a Christian family (“blood”) cannot make you born again; nor your own fallen will (“the flesh”); nor being called to the front and having some minister or evangelist pouring water over you, laying hands on you or praying over you (“the will of man”). It is God, and God alone who saves. Look at Romans 9:16; ‘So then, it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God Who shows mercy’, or James 1:18; ‘Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth.’ Whose will? Our own fallen wills deciding to be born again? Not in the least! Finally, to see how the New Birth comes about in practice, let us turn to a few verses in Acts:-

Acts 2:47b: ‘And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved’. Who added people to the church? Was it the Apostles, with their signs and wonders (v43), or the people themselves making ‘decisions for Christ’? No, it was God Himself drawing men and women to the Lord Jesus (John 6:44).

Acts 14:48b: ‘And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed’. Not one more nor one fewer, but exactly those to whom God gave new birth.

Acts 16:14: ‘Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshipped God’. Lydia was a 'God-fearer,' a Gentile who attended the Jewish synagogue and tried to follow the moral teaching of the Old Testament, but she still needed to be born again, so did Paul open her heart to respond to God? Or did she open her own heart as she listened to Paul? Not at all. ‘The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken to her by Paul’.

Perhaps someone is thinking to himself, “Just a moment! This can’t be right. It is I who has to repent and to believe in Jesus (Mark 1:15), so being born again must depend on me to some extent”. This is perfectly true as far as it goes. Repentance and faith are, as it were, the two legs on which we enter the Kingdom of God, but it is the Lord Himself Who enables us to turn from sin, and to put our trust in the shed blood of Christ upon the cross to make us right with God. Look at Acts 11:18; ‘When they heard these things they ….glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life”’ and then at Eph. 2:8; ‘For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God’. So both repentance and faith have their origin not in sinful Man, but in Almighty God.

[Extracted from an article on the New Birth. http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/07/08/the-new-birth-3-the-source-of-the-new-birth/ ]

Steve

 

If the Scriptures are true... Prior to regeneration, I am dead in my sin. Condemned. I have no free will. A dead thing has no will. Therefore, I must be quickened to then exercise faith that I gain through grace.

Free will is neither Scriptural nor is it even cogent within the framework of God's economy. Only God has free will, I am bound and limited by nature, sin, and a finite intellect.

 

It's not a matter of God doing anything of His choosing, but what He actually chooses to do. If He wanted to, He could make a man 5,000,000 feet tall, weighing 250,000,000 lbs, bow and worship Him for eternity, if that's what he chooses to do. God has chosen to justify the heathen through faith. There is no justification outside of Christ. There is no life outside of Christ. One is not regenerated outside of Christ. One is regenerated in Christ, not regenerated, and then placed in Christ at a later date.

 

Thank you Brother. This is what I have gleaned through the scriptures.

 

A blast from the past for those entranced with this Calvinist contrivance:

Particular Baptist Abraham Booth's sermon "Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners (The Genuine Gospel)" [1800]

 

What you fail to understand is that verse 13 is explaining "to them gave he power to become the sons of God" in verse 12.

Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This verse is not saying God regenerated a person to believe. It is saying when a person receives Jesus and believes on his name, at this moment God gives them the power (regeneration) to become the sons of God. It is then explaining that this new birth (regeneration) does not come by the blood (inherited from parents) nor the will of flesh or man (you cannot cause yourself to be born again, it is beyond your power), but of God.

We must believe. And when we believe on Jesus, God regenerates us. We have no power to regenerate ourselves, only God does.

I have given this analogy. You have a brain tumor and are going to die in a few weeks if not treated. A skilled doctor tells you that if you trust him, he can safely remove the tumor.

You go to the doctor on the day appointed. You lay down on a table and allow the doctor to put you asleep. This is trust, this is faith, this is placing your life completely in the hands of your doctor.

Now the doctor operates. Only he has the skill and power to remove the tumor from your brain. All you did was trust, he did all the work.

And this is how salvation is, we simply come to Jesus and trust him. We do not work whatsoever. But the moment we place our life in his hands, he supernaturally operates on us like the doctor. He heals us and takes away all our sins, he gives us eternal life.

And this is what John 1:12-13 is saying. If we receive Jesus and believe on his name, God will supernaturally give us the power to become a son of God. He will supernaturally regenerate us and we will be born again.

But you MUST believe on Jesus before you are regenerated. If you are regenerated for even one second before you believe, for that one second you would be a born again SINNER!

And some folks here say they were regenerated for years before they believed on Christ. This is impossible, this would mean they were a born again SINNER for years! It is sin that causes death, there is no such thing as a born again sinner.

All I can say is that if you think a person can be regenerated and be dead in all their sins at the same time, you really don't understand what the scriptures say.

 

Let's cut to the chase, here, Brother Steve. Here is what brings life, which is regeneration/salvation.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Not yelling, just for emphasis, only.

 

Now, here is where you get life. You get life from hearing, not hearing to get life.

Isaiah 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.



John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


Hearing brings life, not life brings hearing.

Again, not yelling, just for emphasis only.

 

What are the sure mercies of David? I believe this to be most important to the question at hand.

 

John 16:20-22 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

What are these verses about? What was Jesus telling his disciples here?