Is God Able To regenerate sinners before their faith in Christ?

[Winman]

Spurgeon was very straight forward in what he believed there, you can't believe unless you have an object to believe in which scripture tells us we have not seen.

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I agree with Spurgeon in this statement, he had a good understanding that God's word provides knowledge that enables faith.

But I disagree that God regenerates us so that we have the ability to believe, the scriptures always say you must believe to have life (be regenerated).

Jesus offers us living water (Holy Spirit) but we must drink this water (receive/believe) before it can be "in us" and spring up into everlasting life.

All scripture supports faith preceding regeneration.

 

[Winman]

You can't be safely on the ground BEFORE you trust the parachute and jump out of the plane.

You can't be safely in the firemen's net unless you first trust and jump out of the building.

You cannot be healed of a brain tumor unless you first trust a doctor to put you asleep and operate on you.

And you can't be regenerated until you first trust Jesus.

Putting the results of faith before faith is illogical. It doesn't work that way in life, and it doesn't work that way in salvation. All scripture shows faith preceding life (regeneration).

 

[Tom Butler]

I agree with Spurgeon in this statement, he had a good understanding that God's word provides knowledge that enables faith.

But I disagree that God regenerates us so that we have the ability to believe, the scriptures always say you must believe to have life (be regenerated).

Jesus offers us living water (Holy Spirit) but we must drink this water (receive/believe) before it can be "in us" and spring up into everlasting life.

All scripture supports faith preceding regeneration.

Winman and I see this differently, but I frankly think it should make not one iota of difference in the way we present the gospel to the lost.

This question is the stuff we debate on forums such as this, but it is not the kind of thing we will bring up to one to whom we are witnessing. To them it will make no difference, either.

What they need is the sincere milk of the word of God. They do not need nor are they ready for meat.

We must present the gospel. We must use the word to cut off every avenue of escape from God's judgment but repentance and faith. We must use the Word to point them to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

And we must pray that the Holy Spirit will do his illuminating, convicting and regenerating work.

Then we can come back to the Baptist Board and argue over which comes first.

 

[psalms109:31]

You can't be safely on the ground BEFORE you trust the parachute and jump out of the plane.

You can't be safely in the firemen's net unless you first trust and jump out of the building.

You cannot be healed of a brain tumor unless you first trust a doctor to put you asleep and operate on you.

And you can't be regenerated until you first trust Jesus.

Putting the results of faith before faith is illogical. It doesn't work that way in life, and it doesn't work that way in salvation. All scripture shows faith preceding life (regeneration).

You can't be saved if you do not know of the parachute, know of the doctor, know of the firemen, or know of Jesus the only one who can save you, that is when faith a noun comes first. The word of the finished work of Christ without that you can't believe. Faith is not a verb an action like trust and believe.

 

[Winman]

You can't be saved if you do not know of the parachute, know of the doctor, know of the firemen, or know of Jesus the only one who can save you, that is when faith a noun comes first. The word of the finished work of Christ without that you can't believe. Faith is not a verb an action like trust and believe.

That is knowledge, not faith.

Do I believe an airliner can safely fly to Chicago? We say yes, we believe this, but this is actually knowledge not faith.

Now get on that airliner and allow it to take off with you inside, this is faith.

 

[psalms109:31]

That is knowledge, not faith.

Do I believe an airliner can safely fly to Chicago? We say yes, we believe this, but this is actually knowledge not faith.

Now get on that airliner and allow it to take off with you inside, this is faith.

Knowledge is part of the faith that points to the object of our belief and trust Jesus who is our faith that comes from God.

 

[Winman]

Knowledge is part of the faith that points to the object of our belief and trust Jesus who is our faith that comes from God.

Jn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus demanded more than believeing a fact about him, we have to COME to him that we might have life.

This is yet another verse that shows faith precedes regeneration, having life.

Ask any Catholic if they believe Jesus is the Son of God, they will say yes. Ask them if he died on the cross and rose again, they will say yes.

Now ask them what you have to do to go to heaven. They will tell you they have to do good works, and perform the sacraments. Are they believeing on Jesus to save them? No, they are depending on their works and their church to save them.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did these persons believe Jesus is the Lord? YES, in fact it is emphasized, said twice. But what did they claim made them worthy of heaven? Their works! They were not trusting Jesus alone to save them, they were trusting in themselves.

Read the story of the Pharisee and publican in Luke. Did the Pharisee believe in God? YES. Was he saved? NO. Why? Because he trusted in his own righteousness and good works.

The publican on the other hand made no claim to being worthy of salvation. He confessed he was a sinner and cast himself on God's mercy. Was he saved? YES.

Saving faith is not believeing a set of facts about Jesus, it is personally coming to him in your heart and casting yourself on him, depending on him alone to save you.

 

[Winman]

double post

 

[Winman]

Winman and I see this differently, but I frankly think it should make not one iota of difference in the way we present the gospel to the lost.

This question is the stuff we debate on forums such as this, but it is not the kind of thing we will bring up to one to whom we are witnessing. To them it will make no difference, either.

What they need is the sincere milk of the word of God. They do not need nor are they ready for meat.

We must present the gospel. We must use the word to cut off every avenue of escape from God's judgment but repentance and faith. We must use the Word to point them to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

And we must pray that the Holy Spirit will do his illuminating, convicting and regenerating work.

Then we can come back to the Baptist Board and argue over which comes first.

I think it makes a huge difference. I believe it a total misrepresentation of God to say he unconditionally elects some and passes over others. Of course, this is what you must believe if you buy the false doctrine that a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. The scriptures do not teach either. All men can choose to come to Christ, and it is God's will that all be saved. If a man goes to hell, it was because of his own free will choice to reject the salvation offered him.

Non-Cals like myself are not "man-centered", we are defending our loving God who died for all men and wills that all be saved. God doesn't need me to defend him, but folks need to know the truth of the true God that they might believe in Jesus.

So, it makes a BIG difference to me.

 

[OldRegular]

Putting the results of faith before faith is illogical.

Tell me Winman! Is it logical for Sovereign and Holy God to lay aside His Glory, take upon Himself the likeness of man, and bear the sins of you and me on the cross? Is that logical? Is it?

It doesn't work that way in life, and it doesn't work that way in salvation.

Faith in God is totally different than the faith, trust, belief that man exercises on a daily basis.

All scripture shows faith preceding life (regeneration).

You are wrong Winman. That is simply not true. Is the following passage in your Bible or not?

Ephesians 2:1-10, KJV

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Even when we were dead in sins God quickened us!

The NASB will perhaps help you understand what quicken means.

[/i]1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. [/i]

When we were dead in our transgressions God made us alive.

So you see Winman the following statement by you is not true!

All scripture shows faith preceding life (regeneration).

 

[Winman]

Believe what you want Old Regular, time will tell.

 

[psalms109:31]

Jn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus demanded more than believeing a fact about him, we have to COME to him that we might have life.

This is yet another verse that shows faith precedes regeneration, having life.

Ask any Catholic if they believe Jesus is the Son of God, they will say yes. Ask them if he died on the cross and rose again, they will say yes.

Now ask them what you have to do to go to heaven. They will tell you they have to do good works, and perform the sacraments. Are they believeing on Jesus to save them? No, they are depending on their works and their church to save them.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Did these persons believe Jesus is the Lord? YES, in fact it is emphasized, said twice. But what did they claim made them worthy of heaven? Their works! They were not trusting Jesus alone to save them, they were trusting in themselves.

Read the story of the Pharisee and publican in Luke. Did the Pharisee believe in God? YES. Was he saved? NO. Why? Because he trusted in his own righteousness and good works.

The publican on the other hand made no claim to being worthy of salvation. He confessed he was a sinner and cast himself on God's mercy. Was he saved? YES.

Saving faith is not believing a set of facts about Jesus, it is personally coming to him in your heart and casting yourself on him, depending on him alone to save you.

Have i ever suggested that faith a noun does not precede regeneration. They can't be regenerated without Jesus, the object of our belief and trust. We must remain in Him this also comes from faith that we received from Jesus our faith. We must listen and learn apart from Jesus we will not be saved. We must trust in Him even over our own understandings and faiths.

Our old faith

Matthew 5:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[Lev. 19:18] and hate your enemy.’

Our new faith

Matthew 5:
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

You know there were men who did horrible things in the name of Jesus and thought they were doing the work of God. They never turned to Jesus and repented, casting out what they thought were demons. To them Jesus will say I never knew you, He would not say that to those who trust in Him and remain in Him.

 

[Winman]

Have i ever suggested that faith a noun does not precede regeneration. They can't be regenerated without Jesus, the object of our belief and trust. We must remain in Him this also comes from faith that we received from Jesus our faith. We must listen and learn apart from Jesus we will not be saved. We must trust in Him even over our own understandings and faiths.

Our old faith

Matthew 5:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[Lev. 19:18] and hate your enemy.’

Our new faith

Matthew 5:
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

You know there were men who did horrible things in the name of Jesus and thought they were doing the work of God. They never turned to Jesus and repented, casting out what they thought were demons. To them Jesus will say I never knew you, He would not say that to those who trust in Him and remain in Him.

Jesus always attributed faith to those who had it. He said, "thy faith" hath made thee whole. The scriptures say he saw "their faith". When the disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith he said, "If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed".

Jesus "marvelled" at the centurion's great faith. Why would he marvel at the centurion's great faith if he gave that faith to him? That makes no sense at all.

Faith is a gift in that without the word of God that reveals Jesus, no man could possibly believe in him. But faith is an innate ability that all men have.

All men have the ability to believe, even animals have trust, Jesus said a sheep knows his shepherd's voice and will not follow another.

We own a cat that is very fearful of strangers, but trusts us and comes to us. He runs and hides from all others.

Even Spurgeon said we trust Jesus just as we trust our father or friends.

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith is like the muster seed. If we never have planted a seed, We are told to plant it and it will grow into a huge tree.

We plant it by faith not knowing what it will do, but trust it what it will do. It will grow to be huge. The seed is the faith.

We can have great faith in many things that we never see, but we trust that it will do what we are told it will do.

The object our faith is Jesus for salvation without Him you have no faith to believe in, you have no muster seed.

I am going to bed, we just don't have the same ideas about faith.

Like Spurgeon said,

"By grace are ye saved, through faith?" There are many descriptions of faith; but almost all the definitions I have met with have made me understand it less than I did before I saw them."

 

[Tom Butler]

I think it makes a huge difference. I believe it a total misrepresentation of God to say he unconditionally elects some and passes over others. Of course, this is what you must believe if you buy the false doctrine that a man must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. The scriptures do not teach either. All men can choose to come to Christ, and it is God's will that all be saved. If a man goes to hell, it was because of his own free will choice to reject the salvation offered him.

Non-Cals like myself are not "man-centered", we are defending our loving God who died for all men and wills that all be saved. God doesn't need me to defend him, but folks need to know the truth of the true God that they might believe in Jesus.

So, it makes a BIG difference to me.

Of course, it makes a big difference to you. And it's not inconsequential to me. But to a lost man or woman, what we believe about regeneration makes no difference whatsoever.

If you and I were sitting down with a lost man to present the gospel to him, there will be little difference in my witness to him and yours. That's my point. I can't envision your saying, "Tom and I have differences whether regeneration precedes or follows faith. He's wrong. Here's the right answer." Nope, this won't come up at all.

The Lord has placed a number of people in my path to witness to, and not once have I ever discussed brought up the subject of which comes first, regeneration or faith. I'll bet you haven't, either. Nor did Peter, Paul, Stephen or Jesus himself. Our plea is the same: Repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Winman]

Faith is like the muster seed. If we never have planted a seed, We are told to plant it and it will grow into a huge tree.

We plant it by faith not knowing what it will do, but trust it what it will do. It will grow to be huge. The seed is the faith.

We can have great faith in many things that we never see, but we trust that it will do what we are told it will do.

The object our faith is Jesus for salvation without Him you have no faith to believe in, you have no muster seed.

I agree completely that Jesus must be the object of our faith to be saved.

What I am saying is that faith is not some sort of supernatural gift. Go back and read the Spurgeon quotes you posted, even Spurgeon compared saving faith to normal faith as when we believe our earthy father or one of our friends.

What makes saving faith is placing faith in Jesus alone. But a man does not have to be regenerated to have the ability to have faith, that is a God-given ability all men have, even animals have faith, any pet owner will tell you that.

 

[psalms109:31]

I agree completely that Jesus must be the object of our faith to be saved.

What I am saying is that faith is not some sort of supernatural gift. Go back and read the Spurgeon quotes you posted, even Spurgeon compared saving faith to normal faith as when we believe our earthy father or one of our friends.

What makes saving faith is placing faith in Jesus alone. But a man does not have to be regenerated to have the ability to have faith, that is a God-given ability all men have, even animals have faith, any pet owner will tell you that.

I am not saying it is, what I am saying is faith is not a verb, saving faith is in Jesus Christ, we hear about Him through Jesus words and even words about Him.

John 4:
Many Samaritans Believe
39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

 

[Winman]

I am not saying it is, what I am saying is faith is not a verb, saving faith is in Jesus Christ, we hear about Him through Jesus words and even words about Him.

John 4:
Many Samaritans Believe
39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

I believe we might be saying the same thing. Yes "faith" is a noun, but there is no such thing as faith without there being an exercise of faith. It is like the word "hunger", that is also a noun, but hunger doesn't exist unless one is hungry.

Does that make sense?

So, you can't simply possess faith unless you are exercising faith, just as you can't possess hunger without being hungry.

 

[Winman]

Of course, it makes a big difference to you. And it's not inconsequential to me. But to a lost man or woman, what we believe about regeneration makes no difference whatsoever.

If you and I were sitting down with a lost man to present the gospel to him, there will be little difference in my witness to him and yours. That's my point. I can't envision your saying, "Tom and I have differences whether regeneration precedes or follows faith. He's wrong. Here's the right answer." Nope, this won't come up at all.

The Lord has placed a number of people in my path to witness to, and not once have I ever discussed brought up the subject of which comes first, regeneration or faith. I'll bet you haven't, either. Nor did Peter, Paul, Stephen or Jesus himself. Our plea is the same: Repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I strongly disagee. If I believed in TULIP and someone asked me what they must do to be saved as the Philipian jailer did, I would have to answer, NOTHING. I can't tell you how to be saved because I don't know if you are elect, I don't know if Jesus died for you. And I couldn't honestly tell them to believe if it was very possible they could not believe. That would be like telling someone to flap their arms and fly to heaven. It is mockery to tell someone to do what is impossible to do.

The only thing I could tell them is wait and hope, and perhaps God has chosen to regenerate them someday and they will be saved.

No, I can look a person in the eye and tell them to believe, because I know they are able. And if they do, Jesus will regenerate them and they will become a son of God.

But that is me. It would bother me to give a person false hope.

 

[Tom Butler]

I strongly disagee. If I believed in TULIP and someone asked me what they must do to be saved as the Philipian jailer did, I would have to answer, NOTHING. I can't tell you how to be saved because I don't know if you are elect, I don't know if Jesus died for you. And I couldn't honestly tell them to believe if it was very possible they could not believe. That would be like telling someone to flap their arms and fly to heaven. It is mockery to tell someone to do what is impossible to do.

The only thing I could tell them is wait and hope, and perhaps God has chosen to regenerate them someday and they will be saved.

No, I can look a person in the eye and tell them to believe, because I know they are able. And if they do, Jesus will regenerate them and they will become a son of God.

But that is me. It would bother me to give a person false hope.

Well, then, I'm a rogue Calvinist because my answer would be the same as Paul's. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The same as Paul's on Mars Hill. Repent. The same as Peter's on Pentecost Day. Repent.

I don't believe my answers conflict with Calvinism. My marching orders are not to seek out the elect. They are to declare the terms of entry into the kingdom. As Jesus said, "my sheep hear my voice." Those whom the Father has given to the Son will come to Him.

God does not save independently of the gospel.

If this puts me at odds with Calvinism, so be it. I don't think it does.