I've explained part of it in my post# 73 , guess you don't bother reading what others write to you.
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Prayer clothes?
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I've explained part of it in my post# 73 , guess you don't bother reading what others write to you.
About those rosary beads,I am pretty sure that the prayers that Mary offers to Jesus on our behalf reach him with more effect than your own.
Why ask Mary to pray for us? For the same reason you would ask the person that goes to your church to pray for you.
Why ask the person that goes to your church to pray for you. if praying directly to Jesus does it all. Why ask another to pray for you period.
Did you read from the Bible those verses that I pointed out where God permits the use of religious statues and images , so long as we avoid idolatry ?
And by the way, I am a Catholic revert and I have studied the Bible religiously as a Baptist fundamentalist, now as a Catholic I read it dailey as it was intended to be interpreted , just the very same way as did those Catholic Bishops that interpreted all those many different canonical and non- canonical books that they had to seperate. In order to know which were Canonical, those bishops had to have known the correct" One True " interpretation. By saying that the Catholic Church has the wrong interpretation , how can you be sure that all the Books in your NT are the correct ones ? And don't give me some malarky story. the Holy Bible never had a 'Table of Contents ' to list which Books belonged in the completed Bible. It was the bishops and the bishops alone through the guidence of the HS that gave us the correct List of Canon. Can you imagine if one of the many thousands of other churches ,if one of them attempted at selecting the correct Books with their Johnny-come-lately man-made interpretation, our Holy Bible would most definitely be classified as an unholy bible book.
There only was and still only "One True Interpretation' and it belongs to Christs' Apostolic Church, [ Luke 10:16] that is the only Church that contains the 'Fullness of the Christian Faith".
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I think it is important that we not misrepresent what Catholics (and apparently other Christians) are doing and why they bow during the Stations of the Cross. Catholics, during each 'Station of the Cross', bow at the words 'we adore you O Christ and we praise You, for by Your cross You have redeemed the world'. I asked a Catholic if they are were 'bowing to' anything during the stations of the cross and they said 'absolutetly not' we are adoring Jesus the Lord.' My Catholic friend mentioned that 'Stations of the Cross' is a meditation that does not require pictures, statues, etc. He said, 'in fact, most people probably practice this meditation while only using a prayer book. A far cry from being guilty of idolotry if you ask me'.
Walter, I'm glad you brought that up because I have seen several churches where the stations were nothing more than Roman numerals on the wall. There is nothing to bow to.
Why? Because she can't hear them! Jesus hears our prayers because we have direct access to the Father through Jesus Christ. We have on intercessor - and it's not a human being.
Yes, I've heard this before and prayer is for God - not humans. Humans can't hear us when we're dead.
Yes, I looked at them. What is described is quite different than images of people that are prayed to, worshipped, adored and revered. Well, that is, of course except the New Testament passage which I can't believe that you included. That passage is speaking of Jesus Christ Himself - you think He's a statue? I'm floored.
The canon of Scripture was already firmly established MUCH earlier than the bishops worked on it. They just put a stamp on what was already known. The Catholic church has no claim to the Scriptures.
It belongs to the believers of Jesus Christ - and His church universal. Not one earthly organization. The Catholic church is certainly not the church that "contains the fullness of the Christian faith". Instead, it is a church filled with heresy.
Then why bow down?
Some years ago in northern India the extremist Hindus tore down an ancient Muslim Mosque because they said it was the birthplace of their "god" Ram. A statue was erected of Ram. They bow down and pray to Ram. Who are they praying to? The piece of wood and metal, or the god that it represents? If you want to insult the Hindu, tell them what you just explained to me. They are praying to the god that the statue represents just like you do, just like all pagans do. I can't believe the superstitions and paganism that the RCC so gullibly believes and practices!
Speaking of Himself in the Ten Commandments God said:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (Exodus 20:4-5)
Could anything be any plainer?
I don't misrepresent the Catholics at all. This is what they do; this is what the Bible calls idolatry. It is a flagrant transgression of the Ten Commandments. To say that you pray to the person whom it represents, well even witchdoctors do that. The most pagan of religions do the same. A Satanist can make an image and pray to the demon it represents. It is always what it represents.
Prove it....
This needs to be answered.
The Bible says:
"There is one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus."
--No one else can intercede on our behalf. Praying to any other person is idolatry and always has been. Christ alone is our intercessor.
1John 2:1 "Little children I right unto you that you sin not, but if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous.
--Our advocate (lawyer, go-between, mediator, intercessor) is Jesus Christ. He alone can do this for us. Mary cannot. Like all who have gone before us Mary has a place where she is buried. She is dead. Praying to the dead is wrong. I don't pray to my grand-parents and I would not, therefore pray to Mary. They are all dead!!!
I pray FOR my friends, and my friends pray FOR me;
I do not pray TO my friends, and my friends do not pray TO me.
There is a big difference. To pray TO someone is idolatry.
Praying FOR a person is very much different than praying TO a person.
The RCC prays TO Mary and all of its various saints, including the ones that don't really exist like St. Christopher.
If you came to that conclusion, then it is obvious that you rejected the one true message that salvation is by grace through faith and that not of yourself. That truly is sad. For both messages cannot be true. It is sad that you have chosen the way of error.
The apocrypha was not officially accepted until the Council of Trent.
The Jews never accepted them.
The Protestants never accepted them
Other versions don't have them.
The weight of history is against the RCC.
The contain false doctrine, and are not inspired.
The early church knew what books were inspired and which were not.
And it isn't the RCC who has a history of killing the true saints of God, spilling their blood in various Crusades, Inquisitions, etc.
David Lamb
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Not sure what you are asking here. Do you mean, "How many people pray at a time when their bible is physically in front of them?" or do you mean, "How many people address their prayers to a bible?" My personal answer to the first would be, "Sometimes". If, whether in a church service, or privately at home, I pray having just read the bible, I don't stop, put my bible away out of sight, and then pray. In that sense, I do sometimes pray while my bible is infront of me, but that certainly doesn't mean I am making an idol out of it. I never address prayer to my bible. If I did, I would be guilty of what you suggest.
I have no idea how many people do that. Again, if you are suggesting that people hold their bibles up and address prayers to them, that would of course be wrong. But it is not wrong (in my opinion) to pray while you have a bible in your hand.
I have never deliberately turned to the direction of where my bible happens to be before praying, nor have I ever seen anyone else do so. That sounds remarkably like the Roman Catholic and Anglican practice of facing Jerusalem when saying the Apostles' Creed, and bowing the head at the mention of the name "Jesus".
Sorry, but what is your basis for this idea? Both are important, and we are not told to time ourselves to work out how much time we are spending on each.
All of those except the last are in the Old Testament, when Christ was yet to come. And here is Colossians 1.15:
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Who is the "He"? Well, here is the same verse in its context, Colossians 1.13-18:
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
So the verse you quoted says absolutely nothing about us making images. Rather, it says that Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God.
I explained that in #83. They are not 'bowing TO' anything. They are bowing at the words 'We Adore You O Christ And We Praise You, For By Your Cross You have Redeemed The World'. I see nothing wrong with that.
When Catholics enter a Catholic Church they genuflect or bow before entering their pew. In this instance they would be 'bowing TO' something. They believe in the presence of Christ in the consecrated bread that is kept in the tabernacle and bow in reverence to that. Now, if they are wrong about the 'Real Presence' of Christ in the bread and wine, then I would say they are guilty of idolatry for the attention they give it. Make sense?
You may explain WHY they do what they do all day long but it does not change the fact that Scripture forbids WHAT they do and HOW they do it.
Ex. 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:
This commandment is broken by Catholics almost daily. They bow down before pictures on a wall, before statutes, before baked bread in a box and then give an explanation to avoid the obvious condemnation of scripture for WHAT they do and HOW they do it.
What they say is not the point! The point is what they are DOING and HOW they do it! Exodus 20:4-5 condemns certain things and ACTIONS toward images not just intent for those actions.
They will tell you that they don't worship the image itself, but what the image represents. For example if it is either an image of Jesus or Mary, then they will say they are praying to Jesus or Mary.
However a Hindu will say the same thing. If asked about the idols of Ganesh (elephant god) or Ram, they will say they are not praying to the idol but the god behind the idol, what the image represents. So what is the difference? There is none. Both are idolatry, and are condemned in the Bible as such.
Ann I realize you're using a little mild sarcasm here to make a point, but the word you're looking for is veneration. Look it up. It's a good word. You can use it.
THAT'S it!!!! No - seriously, I was posting as I was thinking.
I'm on flexoril for my migraines so bear with me for the next few weeks. I feel happy. LOLhttp://www.thefreedictionary.com/veneration
Veneration, reverence is all part of worship which is due only to God. Taking it away from God and giving it to another is nothing but idolatry.
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