What is Sin?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

HP: How about saying Adam and Eve were born of Christ? Life was not, and could not have been, created apart from Him. Christ was and is the light of men.

Biblicist: Wrong! The singular term "man" is used for both Adam and Eve together as one. The term "men" is used for the whole human race including male and females.

HP: Here are two passages that use the word 'man.'

Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.




HP: Shall we assume from the comment of Biblicist the at the word 'man' is limited to speaking of Adam and Eve, and if the authors of the above Scriptures really intended to speak of the whole human race they would have used the word 'men' instead of 'man'?

Has anyone but myself heard of common parlance?

 

[The Biblicist]

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.





HP: Here are two passages that use the word 'man.'

Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Our dispute is over the plural "men" not the singular "man"! The use of "man" in the above two verses is simply generic and is applicable to each and every individual person.

However, John does not use the generic singular "man" and neither does Moses use the plural "men" in regard to Adam and Eve.

Will you agree that the preceding immediate context has natural creation in view (Jn. 1:1-3) rather than spiritual life or created spiritual life as in Ephesians 2:10 in view???

In contexts where natural life is in view, the term "light" is a synonym for the immaterial aspect of man where the life principle exists and when his physical life is taken his "light" is put out!

2Sa 21:17 But Abishai the son of Zeruiah succoured him, and smote the Philistine, and killed him. Then the men of David sware unto him, saying, Thou shalt go no more out with us to battle, that thou quench not the light of Israel.

1Ki 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.

Job 18:6 The light shall be dark in his tabernacle, and his candle shall be put out with him.

Job 21:17 How oft is the candle of the wicked put out! and how oft cometh their destruction upon them! God distributeth sorrows in his anger.

Pr 13:9 The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.

Pr 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Of course, Christ is not only the source and sustainer of phyisical life but spiritual life as well. However, in this context we are talking about PHYSICAL CREATION (Jn. 1:1-3) and Christ as the CREATOR and sustainer of physical life of all "men."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Biblicist: Of course, Christ is not only the source and sustainer of phyisical life but spiritual life as well. However, in this context we are talking about PHYSICAL CREATION (Jn. 1:1-3) and Christ as the CREATOR and sustainer of physical life of all "men."

HP: Why of course you would desire to draw rigid lines around the text so that it could only be used in a manner consistent with what Biblicist desires it to say. You have absolutely no justification, contextually or otherwise, to limit this verse to physical life alone. Are you suggesting that Christ only was a creator of physical life?


Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Physical creation alone is being addressed in this first part of this chapter? You are only fooling yourself Biblicist.

 

[The Biblicist]

Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Physical creation alone is being addressed in this first part of this chapter? You are only fooling yourself Biblicist.

Of course Christ is the author of both physical and spiritual life but how can you deny that all three preceding verses deal with NATURAL CREATION (vv. 1-3) rather than NEW CREATON or SPIRITUAL??? John knows the difference between "children" and "men" but he says "men" or mankind in general. Mankind in general possess physical life from God but not spiritual life because the text immediately denies that! The text states that Christ as light came into a DARK world that could not comprehend the light:

5 ¶ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Hence, this world of mankind "men" is DARKNESS not SPIRITUAL LIFE. However, your position demands all mankind is born with spiritual light/life and thus it is not a world of darkness! However, this world is one of darkness and rejection of the light = spiritual life:

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.


This is not a world where all mankind enter with both physical and spiritual light but only where all mankind enter with physical life but are in spiritual darkness and reject the light!

The point is that these scriptures do not provide any clear basis to justify your point! You have to infer too much.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Physical creation alone is being addressed in this first part of this chapter? You are only fooling yourself Biblicist.

Biblicist: Of course Christ is the author of both physical and spiritual life but how can you deny that all three preceding verses deal with NATURAL CREATION (vv. 1-3) rather than NEW CREATON or SPIRITUAL???

HP: Man is by virtue of his birth a physical and spiritual being. We have discussed the many verses from Psalms to Romans that tell us that all men are in possession of spiritual life. The spirits of all men will live eternally in some abode. Spiritual life is not only evident in those that have been redeemed. All men are spiritual in a sense. They all are simply not directing their spirit in a manner consistent with the plan and conditions of salvation. You cannot separate the fact of all men receive spiritual life via Christ in creation than you could deny we receive our physical life through Christ by creation. All men are spiritual me in the sense that they are spiritual beings. The most remote hot-n-tot in the world is a spiritual being Biblicist. That by no means suggests they are saved or are spiritually alive 'in Christ.' The verses here simply state that the spirits and bodies of all men were created by God nad they receive the 'light' or existence of both via Christ, saved or not saved.

Biblicist: John knows the difference between "children" and "men" but he says "men" or mankind in general. Mankind in general possess physical life from God but not spiritual life because the text immediately denies that! The text states that Christ as light came into a DARK world that could not comprehend the light:

5 ¶ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

HP: All men are children of God in the sense of their Creator granting to them physical and spiritual existence. All men are not children of God in the sense of salvation and spiritual life 'IN CHRIST." When will we start realizing that the words 'in a sense' need to qualify so many of our remarks?

Well I thank God for my Godly parents that from the first day I came into this world till the day they passed, they prayed over me and faithfully taught me the Word of God, both by the Word and example. Oh yes I comprehended the light that shone into my heart even as a child, and though I willingly turned form that light for several years, God allowed me to return to enjoy His salvation once again. This poor man cried in the midst of the darkness of my life and God heard me! Thank the Lord He did! One of these days he is going to even tell Ruiz, HP had every right to call himself a Christian! He is MY child!

Oh the blessed day that we as believers have to look forward to! Not on the account of, and not for the sake of, anything we have said or done, but by His mercy He has saved us! Can anyone say Praise the Lord?

"My Faith has found a resting place, Not in device or creed; I trust the Ever-Living One, His wounds for me I plead. I need no other argument, I need no other plea, It is enough that Jesus died, And that He Died for me.": "My Faith Has Found A Resting Place" by Lidie H. Edmunds

 

[The Biblicist]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Physical creation alone is being addressed in this first part of this chapter? You are only fooling yourself Biblicist.

To the Reader: Anyone can see plainly that John 1:1-3 is speaking about the NATURAL creation. In addition, this refers to the PRE-fallen condition of creation as God did not create the world and man in fallen sinful condition.

The natural creation includes the material and immaterial aspects of human nature but that is not an assertion that post-fallen creation is sinless or that humans are spiritually alive = eternal life by birth.

In contrast verses 5-12 refer to a FALLEN world that is in a state of DARKNESS and the DARKNESS does not simply fail to comprehend the light but resists and rejects the light.

This text does not provide any clear or explicit evidence to support his view but must he must make unnecessary INFERENCES to make it usable for him.

The position that infants come into the world morally upright - spirituall alive = eternal life - union with God is based upon INFERENCES of all their proof texts while demanding they EXPLAIN AWAY clear and explicit texts that clearly deal with birth as sinful creature -unclean.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: The position that infants come into the world morally upright - spirituall alive = eternal life - union with God is based upon INFERENCES of all their proof texts while demanding they EXPLAIN AWAY clear and explicit texts that clearly deal with birth as sinful creature -unclean.

HP: If anyone on this list wants to see a shining example of a straw man, that does not contain truth in it by any stretch of the imagination, look no further than this comment of Biblicist. All he shows is ignorance of everything that has been stated or implied.

Biblicist, show us one single instance where anyone has stated or implied that some believe infants are born 'morally upright.' I would like to see that quote.

The only thing that I can remember reading that could possibly be understood in that manner is one Scripture :
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

 

[Pastor David]

Sin is any want of conformity to, or trangression of, the law of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: If anyone on this list wants to see a shining example of a straw man, that does not contain truth in it by any stretch of the imagination, look no further than this comment of Biblicist. All he shows is ignorance of everything that has been stated or implied.

Biblicist, show us one single instance where anyone has stated or implied that some believe infants are born 'morally upright.' I would like to see that quote.

The only thing that I can remember reading that could possibly be understood in that manner is one Scripture :
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Have you been reading your partner's posts???????? Apparently not!

Spiritual life by defintion in Scripture is ETERNAL life! Spiritual life by definition in Scripture is UNION with God the HOLY Spirit as the opposite is spiritual DEATH or separation from God (Eph. 4:18).

Spiritual life by definition is MORAL RIGHTEOUSNESS because it is impossible to be in UNION with God apart from MORAL righteousness and it is equally impossible to be spiriually alive and not be MORALLY RIGHTEOUS as spiritual death is the lack of moral righteousness!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor David: Sin is any want of conformity to, or trangression of, the law of God.

HP: Pastor David, we always are looking for Scriptural reference to support what we mean.

A rock may lack or have a 'want of conformity' to Gods law, but that does not make the rock sin or sinful.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicst: Have you been reading your partner's posts???????? Apparently not!

HP: My partner? I do not know, nor have I ever met him in any way before reading his posts on this list. I have certainly gained from reading his posts. :thumbs:

Quote him if he said what you say he did. I have not read any such thing as you indicate coming from him. I want to see the quote or you need to retract your strawman argument.:thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Just so no one has to look back to see what Biblicist straw man was, here it is again.

Biblicist: The position that infants come into the world morally upright - spirituall alive = eternal life - union with God is based upon INFERENCES of all their proof texts while demanding they EXPLAIN AWAY clear and explicit texts that clearly deal with birth as sinful creature -unclean.

 

[The Biblicist]

Just so no one has to look back to see what Biblicist straw man was, here it is again.

Are you actually and seriously denying that "spiritual life" or as your side has previously defined as being "born again" (re-generation) can exist outside of SPIRITUAL UNION with God according to Biblical definition?

Are you actually and seriously denying that "spiritual life" or as your side has previously defined as being "born again" (re-generation) is not the opposte of SPIRITUAL DEATH according to Biblical definition?

Are you actually and seriously denying that "spiritual life" or as your side has previously defined as being "born again" (re-generation) is not ETERNAL LIFE according to Biblical definition???

My statement is only a STRAW MAN if all the above is not Biblically accurate in defining "spiritual life" or "re-generation" which your side claims to be the condition of children from birth!!!!

If you don't know that Jerry as argued over and over and over again that "re-generation" demands that children come into this world spiritually alive than you need to read more of the posts of your fellow helpers.

No, I will not withdraw a thing and everyone who has followed this discussion know that such things have been said repeatedly by your side! Spiritual life from the Biblical definition = regeneration = union with God = new birth = created in the image of God morally = eternal life and any sunday school child know it.

 

[Pastor David]

HP: Pastor David, we always are looking for Scriptural reference to support what we mean.

A rock may lack or have a 'want of conformity' to Gods law, but that does not make the rock sin or sinful.

How would a rock lack conformity to God's law?

1 John 3:4 - "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor David: How would a rock lack conformity to God's law?

HP: The law is holy and His commandments just. A rock simply does not conform to being holy or just for obvious reasons.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Pastor, show us where sin is defined simply by a 'want of conformity' to God's law? Sin is a 'willful' want of conformity to God's law, not just a want of conformity to God's law. Note again the clear progression that occurs involving sin in James.

That was my only point to be made by my comment. Sin is not an 'it' or anything physical, nor something in the flesh. Sin is a judgment of God against the willful transgression of a known commandment of God.

 

[Pastor David]

HP: The law is holy and His commandments just. A rock simply does not conform to being holy or just for obvious reasons.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Pastor, show us where sin is defined simply by a 'want of conformity' to God's law? Sin is a 'willful' want of conformity to God's law, not just a want of conformity to God's law. Note again the clear progression that occurs involving sin in James.

That was my only point to be made by my comment. Sin is not an 'it' or anything physical, nor something in the flesh. Sin is a judgment of God against the willful transgression of a known commandment of God.

We find two kinds of sin in the Bible, sin of omission and sins of comission. Examples of each would be as follows:

Sin of omission - Failing to keep God's command to honor your father and mother. Ommitting a positive command.

Sin of comission - Taking the Lord's name in vain. Transgression a negative (don't not) command.

So that fallen man either fails to comform (example 1) or transgresess (example 2) the law of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

What ever it is, if it is sin, is the willful disobedience to a known commandment of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Have to run again, but I should have prefaced my remark with these words: "Strictly speaking, nothing is sin...." I have adressed this before but may need to do it again. More later.

 

[Pastor David]

What ever it is, if it is sin, is the willful disobedience to a known commandment of God.

:thumbsup:

 

[Pastor David]

Have to run again, but I should have prefaced my remark with these words: "Strictly speaking, nothing is sin...." I have adressed this before but may need to do it again. More later.

No-thing is sin? So there is no such thing as sin?