This Do, and Thou Shalt Live

[Amy.G]

Could not the perfection, that God demands of us humans, be relative in many ways, such as knowledge, light. abilities, etc? Does an adult act on the same level of obedience as say a child? What do you think?

One thing I know for certain is, that God requires no impossibilities from man. God is Just.

God didn't say be perfect as a human can be. He said be perfect as HE is. God's standard is Himself.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tom, I have a direct word from the Lord to us concerning this matter.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Can anyone say "Praise the Lord!" Think about the testimony of God concerning His servant in the OT no less without the indwelling Spirit of God as we have available in our dispensation! Can you even imagine walking so close to God that God could say of you, " Have you considered my servant Tom, that there is none like him in the earth (the only one but still yet one!) a perfect and upright man, one that fearth God and escheweth evil?

Is there not even a 'little desire' to find such a walk even if it might seem somewhat distant to the walk one might have at the moment?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: God didn't say be perfect as a human can be. He said be perfect as HE is. God's standard is Himself.

HP: Whatever is the standard, if God demands it it is possible in this present world.
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

I have to trust the following verses.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
1Th 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.


I need this message. Sadly it is not one I hear in Churches very often.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

HP: I would say that is about as perfect as it gets in this world.:thumbsup:

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is hoe the Calvinists say that the guilt of sin was imputed to ALL of Adam's descendants, INCLUDING Abel:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith, VI./3).

According to this the guilt of Adam's sin was imputed to all of Adam's posterity, including his son Abel.

So in other words according to this Abel bore the iniquity of his father, Adam. But the following passage from the Scriptures declares in no uncertain terms that God will do no such thing:

"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him" (Ezek.18:20).

You still ignored the elephant in the room! Adam acted as a REPRESENTATIVE head of the human race when he sinned. He did not act simply as a father. If had simply acted as a father then neither Cain or Abel or any human descendant would have been born with a sin nature.

Therefore, your logic is irrational. Abel did not bare the sin of his father! He bore the sin Adam EXACTLY how every other human has - no difference.

"By ONE MAN'S OFFENCE many were MADE SINNERS."

The Fact that Christ says "there IS none good but ONE and that is God" demonstrates your position is erroneous. Jesus did not say "there IS none good but infants and God...."

 

[The Biblicist]

No one said that law did not exist before Adam sinned but the law of which I was speaking that resulted from Adam's sin is one which is universal in scope (death passed to all men):

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

The only universal law is the one written in the hearts of men, the one of which the "conscience" bears witness.

You are confusing cause with consequences. The sin was eating the fruit, the consequence was experientially receiving the knowledge of good and evil. You have reversed them. The sin is explicitly defined "in the day YOU EAT thereof, you shall surely die." He NEVER said anywhere "in the day you violate conscience...."

Conscience is defiled by sin not the cause of sin.

Men die spirtually as a result of their own sin

This is absolutely and totally false! Again, Jesus clearly said "there is NONE good but ONE...." (Mt. 19:17). Paul said "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" not "by the offences of many"!!

Infants come into this world and almost immediately demonstrate complete raw depravity. If they came into this world with a fully developed body they would kill and destroy everything about them. Nothing in the realm of humanity is more selfish, self-centered and demanding than infants.

Psa. 53:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

Ps 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Pr 22:15 ¶ Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God

Every parent knows from observational experience that children ALWAYS require discipline to restrain evil that naturally flows from their hearts as soon as they are able to express themselves.

Solomon says this is "bound in the heart" of a child and discipline is necessary to drive it from them. David says that they were conceived "in sin."

Why is it that children need to be trained to do what is right but naturally do what is evil without any training, if they are not evil by nature from birth?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

How were all men made sinners by the offense of Adam? Simple. If he would have remained in innocence then "law" would not have come into the world and sin is not imputed when there is no law:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).

How did "law" cme into the world by Adam that lead to all men being sinners? When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said:

"Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen.3:22).

Adam now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart. All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

The Calvinists cannot get anything right. They say that people are born dead in sin as a result of Adam's sin:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter VI., Number 3).

Paul says in no uncertain terms that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

A man is not dead spiritually as a result of Adam's sin but as a result of his own sins:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).

A person cannot die spiritually as a result of his own sin if he is born spiritually dead. That is because a person must first be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually.

Now let us return to the verse I quoted earlier:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

Of course if you are right that a man is made spiritually dead then that would mean that the Lord Jesus was also born that way because He was made like us in every way. But you say:

The reason you are wrong in regard to your application is that you fail to consider the EXCEPTIONS provided by other scriptures and some of those exceptions are quite obvious as those I pointed out in my previous post.

He was made the "second Adam" and thus like the "first Adam" without sin. No man took His life, He laid it down and had power to raise it back up.

Another point that he was not made like all other men is the way he came into the world - he had no human father and that is significant in our discussion.

The Greek word translated "to be made like" means "to make like; to become like one...took the likeness of one" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

This is not speaking of "how" one is made. So this has nothing to do with the virgin birth. But you must give some reason, no matter how irrational, as an excuse for not believing what is so plain in the Scriptures.

 

[The Biblicist]

How were all men made sinners by the offense of Adam? Simple. If he would have remained in innocence then "law" would not have come into the world and sin is not imputed when there is no law:

Romans 5:12 does not say "conscience" or "law" entered into the world by one man or by one man's sin but rather SIN entered into the world by one man. However, your interpetation is based upon this reversal of the Biblical cause and effect. You would not only have conscience entering into the world by one man's sin (reversal of cause and effect) but the violation of conscience by many to be the cause of their own condemnation and death. If that were the case Paul could have easily said,

"By one man's sin, conscience entered into the world and death by trangressing conscience, for all have sinned against conscience and therefore death by sin."

Adam is not charged with violating his conscience but with eating what was by Divine Law established in Genesis 2:16 as forbidden. Neither are his posterity condemned to death due to violation of their conscience but are condemned to death because of ONE MAN'S OFFENCE defined as violation of Genesis 2:16.

Nor does Romans 5:12-19 define the consequence (conscience) to be the cause of sin for many being made sinners, condemned or many being dead BUT rather the cause found in ONE MAN'S OFFENCE prior to the consequence of conscience established. Again, you reverse the Biblical order of cause and consequence and make the consequence (conscience) to be the cause of death and sin in many rather the consequence.

Romans 5:12-14 does not say that death reigned from Adam to Moses due to their own wilful violations of law of conscience , but rather death reigned over them in spite of the fact they did not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression (willful sin - 1 Tim. 2:12). Hence, death is not attributed to their own individual willful sin but to the singular sin of Adam. Hence, death is not attributed to violation of conscience/law but Adam's singular violation of EATING the tree. Conscience was the consequence not the cause of sin etering into the world. You have made it the cause thus reversing the Biblical order of cause and effect.

Hence, when every man enters the world by birth they are already subject to death prior to any violation of their own conscience as the CONSEQENCE of ONE MAN'S OFFENCE, and if subject to death, they are already subject to condemnation prior to any personal violation of conscience, because death is the condemnation that finds its cause in "ONE MAN'S OFFENCE." The death of infants proves death is not the consequence of personal sin.

Romans 5:15-19 does not say that by many offences many be dead, condemned, and made sinners but BY ONE MAN'S SINGULAR OFFENCE many be dead, condemned, judged and made sinners.

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).

If you would have continued to quote verse 14 it would have exposed your explanation as false! Verse 14 proves it was not the WILLFUL SINS by many that is the cause of their death but rather the singular transgression of Adam that is the cause of death reigning between Adam and Moses.


14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

How did "law" cme into the world by Adam that lead to all men being sinners? When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said:

"Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen.3:22).

Adam now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart. All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

God did not say when you violate conscience you will surely die but the precise law being violated is spelled out in Genesis 2:16 not Genesis 3:22. The former is the cause of sin (Gen. 2:16) while the latter is the consequence of sin. There are many consequences of sin (condemnation, death, future violation of conscience, booted from the garden, pain in child birth, etc.).

Adam's immediate and future offspring all were made subject to the CONSEQUENCES of his SINGULAR OFFENCE. But these CONSEQUENCES were not the CAUSE of their condemnation and death. They were born CONDEMNED ALREADY because infants die, and death is the condemnation brought into the world by ONE MAN'S SIN.

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Adam was NOT responsible for bringing Law into the world as God brought the law into the world in Genesis 2:16. It is violation BY ONE MAN of the Genesis 2:16 law that brought sin and death into the world not the violation by many men of the Genesis 3:22 consequence!!!!!

The Calvinists cannot get anything right. They say that people are born dead in sin as a result of Adam's sin:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter VI., Number 3).

Paul says in no uncertain terms that "death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

A man is not dead spiritually as a result of Adam's sin but as a result of his own sins:

Paul did not say death came into the world by Adam bringing law into the world but by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE!!! Paul did not say "For all SHALL sin" but rather "all have sinned."

Death is not the condemnation of personal violation of conscience because INFANTS DIE! Thus they are CONDEMNED ALREADY even before they are born. "All have sinned" because all sinned when Adam sinned. The whole human nature was contained in ONE MAN and BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS. All sinned when Adam sinned because all humanity was IN Adam and Adam represented ALL MEN when he sinned. Thus ALL MEN were condemned already PRIOR TO THEIR BIRTH and the proof is that INFANTS DIE and death is the CONDEMNATION for sin.

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).

A person cannot die spiritually as a result of his own sin if he is born spiritually dead. That is because a person must first be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually.

Paul did not say, "And you, BECAUSE OF your sins are dead" but rather "BEING dead in your sins." They were dead in sin when before they were born and the proof is the condemnation of that sin which is death and infants die. However, as soon as they are sinners by nature they committ sins. Thus, "BEING dead in your sins."

 

[The Biblicist]

Now let us return to the verse I quoted earlier:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

Of course if you are right that a man is made spiritually dead then that would mean that the Lord Jesus was also born that way because He was made like us in every way. But you say:

The Greek word translated "to be made like" means "to make like; to become like one...took the likeness of one" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

This is not speaking of "how" one is made. So this has nothing to do with the virgin birth. But you must give some reason, no matter how irrational, as an excuse for not believing what is so plain in the Scriptures.

Adam was made in the image of God but in the fall that image was perverted by sin. All of humanity are made in the image of Adam. However, we are made in the image of the fallen Adam not the prefallen Adam and in regeneration that image is restored:

Col. 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


The absolute proof of that we are not made in the image of the prefallen Adam is that we are born into this world already condemned by sin and death is the evidence as INFANTS DIE. There is no sin and no death in the Pre-fallen Adam only the fallen Adam.


Jesus was made "like" the prefallen Adam in the full image of God without condemnation and thus without sin.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Christ did not bear the FALLEN image of God found in his brethren. He was made in the image of God as was Adam. Just as Adam was "made" directly by God so Christ was directly "made" by God in the womb of Mary as He was conceived by the Holy Spirit:

Mt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


Adam FELL from that image by sin and all of Adam's posterity bore that FALLEN image which can only be restored by regeneration in spirit and progressive sanctification ultimately concluded in glorification.

1 Jn. 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 Cor. 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Hence, Christ was made like his brethren in every point except he did not come into this world bearing the FALLEN IMAGE of Adam, and therefore was not condemned already even as others and if not condemned, not subject to consequence of condemantion - death.

No man was able to take his life. He died because our sins were legally imputed to him as the Second Adam and on the cross gave up his spirit. No man could take his life, he willingly laid it down and he had power to take it back again.

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Lu 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

 

[savedbymercy]

This concept of do and live is a law / work salvation ! Also the same work salvation principle is in effect when we teach one must believe to live.

 

[The Biblicist]

This concept of do and live is a law / work salvation ! Also the same work salvation principle is in effect when we teach one must believe to live.

Because all of the scriptures you have abused have been placed back and context and the door shut, your only resort now is simply asserting your error as all your use of scriptures have been shown to be proof text perversions.

 

[savedbymercy]

Because all of the scriptures you have abused have been placed back and context and the door shut, your only resort now is simply asserting your error as all your use of scriptures have been shown to be proof text perversions.

Believing is something man must do ! 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

If man must do something to live, that is law, works, condemned by scripture and contradicts salvation by grace through faith..

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All sinned when Adam sinned because all humanity was IN Adam and Adam represented ALL MEN when he sinned.

Paul does NOT say that "all sinned when Adam sinned." That is a figment of your imagination. Here is what he actually said:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12; NIV).

Or if you do not like that translation try this one:

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (Ro.5:12;NIV).

The key to coming to a knowledge of the truth is to believe the Scriptures AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. No wonder you are so confused!

We can see that Paul recognized that his "spiritual" death was a result of his own "sin":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Of course when Paul said he "died" he was referring to spiritual death because he was still alive physically when he wrote those words. He knew that he died spiritually when he broke the law.

Let us look at some more verses which speak of the same law and the same death:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

Paul describes the Ten Commandments as being "the ministration of death"--"written and engraved in stone."

Of course the contrast which Paul made at 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 is between that which brings "spiritual" life versus that which brings "spiritual" death:

"...for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

With that in mind there can be absolutely no doubt to anyone with an open mind that Paul said that he died "spiritually" when he broke the law:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

There can be no doubt that it is a person's own sin which brings forth spiritual death and here Paul makes that fact plain:

"For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:20-23).

So there are numerous verses from the pen of Paul where he makes it plain that spiritual death comes as a result of a person's own sin and not the sin of Adam. And you will never come to the knowledge of what Paul is saying at Romans 5:12 until you cease from perverting what he said and accept the fact that a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Adam was made in the image of God but in the fall that image was perverted by sin. All of humanity are made in the image of Adam.

Of course you are once again wrong, as witnessed by James' words here:

"Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God" (James 3:9).

"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man" (1 Cor.11:7).

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man" (Gen.9:6).

However, we are made in the image of the fallen Adam not the prefallen Adam and in regeneration that image is restored.

Let us look at the following passage which speaks of "regeneration":

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Here Paul uses the word "regeneration" in regard to his salvation. This word is translated from the Greek word paliggenesia, which is the combination of palin and genesis.

Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Genesis means "used of birth, nativity" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

When we combine the meaning of the two words we have a "repetition of a birth."

It is obvious that the reference is not to a "physical" rebirth, or the repetition of one's physical birth. Paul could only be speaking of a repetition of a spiritual birth. And the words that follow make it certain that the "birth" of which Paul is referring to is a "spiritual" birth--"renewing of the Holy Spirit."

If a person is "regenerated" by the Holy Spirit then that means that one must have previously been born of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore we can be certain that the following words of Paul where he speaks of previously being "alive" that the reference was to being alive spiritually:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

The Law was "ordained to life" so how could that be possible if a man does not have the ability to obtain eternal life by keeping the law?

The absolute proof of that we are not made in the image of the prefallen Adam is that we are born into this world already condemned by sin and death is the evidence as INFANTS DIE. There is no sin and no death in the Pre-fallen Adam only the fallen Adam.

Adam was not created with an immortal body because his continuing to live physically depended on him eating of the "tree of life":

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" (Gen.3:22).

 

[The Biblicist]

Paul does NOT say that "all sinned when Adam sinned." That is a figment of your imagination.

No, it is the proper understanding by the developmental argument provided by Paul in verses 13-19 to explain it. They were "MADE SINNERS" by "ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" which is the conclusion of the explanation from verses 13-18.

In contrast, your explantion is due to [1] ignoring the explanatory context; [2]reversing the stated cause to be the effect; and [3] thus making Romans 5:12 in effect read:

"Wherefore, as by one man's sin law entered into the world, by death by law; so death passed upon all men, for that all have violated the law of their conscience."

However, the text neither means or says such a thing and so:



The key to coming to a knowledge of the truth is to believe the Scriptures AS THEY ARE WRITTEN. No wonder you are so confused! - JS

We can see that Paul recognized that his "spiritual" death was a result of his own "sin":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

Soooo, your interpretation demands that Paul was SPIRITUALLY ALIVE before he personally broke the law "alive without the law once"??????

He is teaching no such thing. He is talking from his own perspective as a former LOST self-righteous degenerate Pharisee who actually believed his law keeping works were being justified by the law thus obtaining LIFE by justification of the law. This was the mental delusion he was living under. However, when he came to understand the tenth commandment, which dealt with his HEART, then he DIED according to his own mental perspective and saw the law did not justifiy life for his works but condemned him to DEATH by his works.

Let us look at some more verses which speak of the same law and the same death:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

Paul describes the Ten Commandments as being "the ministration of death"--"written and engraved in stone."

Of course the contrast which Paul made at 2 Corinthians 3:6-8 is between that which brings "spiritual" life versus that which brings "spiritual" death:

"...for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."

Your mumbo jumbo of mixed contexts and invalidate proof texting does not justify your theory but condemns it. The law ministers death to all those under it even those who are DECEIVED into thinking it is ministering life to them instead of death BECAUSE OF THEIR GOOD WORKS! Paul was under that delusion and so are many on this forum.

There can be no doubt that it is a person's own sin which brings forth spiritual death and here Paul makes that fact plain:

"For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:20-23).

They formerly were not ashamed of "those things" because some formerly believed they were being approved by the law for LIFE when in fact the law never approved of their good works but such works were the basis for the law to condemn them to death. Others (Gentiles) were not ashamed of their ungodliness because they had no special revelation to condemn "those things" as ungodly. They came into the world CONDEMNED ALREADY but ignorant of their state due to "ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" but nevertheless the DEATH of infants proved it was not due to their own individual violations but the death of infants and their own individual sins were but just evidence of spiritual death that passed upon all men because of "ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, it is the proper understanding by the developmental argument provided by Paul in verses 13-19 to explain it. They were "MADE SINNERS" by "ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" which is the conclusion of the explanation from verses 13-18.

When you start perverting Scriptures you cannot understand what Paul is saying here:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

What this verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men. However, the verses which follow were written in order to explain how Adam's sin brought death to all men:

"For until law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come" (Ro.5:13-14).

These verses are speaking of "law" in a universal sense (death passed to all men), and the only universal law that has been in effect since Moses is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).

So that explains exactly how all were "MADE SINNERS" by "ONE MAN'S OFFENCE." If Adam would have remained in innocence then all men would not have received the law which is written in their hearts and therefore would not have been "sinners" because:

"sin is not imputed when there is no law."

Now let us see just how you pervert the next passage:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

You say:

This was the mental delusion he was living under. However, when he came to understand the tenth commandment, which dealt with his HEART, then he DIED according to his own mental perspective and saw the law did not justifiy life for his works but condemned him to DEATH by his works.

Paul says that he died and the commandment slew him. He did not say that he died "according to his own mental perspective." He did not say that the "law condemned him to death," as you imagine, but instead that it actually "slew" him. You refuse to believe what Paul says in regard to the fact that he died as a result of breaking the law even though you have been provided with the following passage:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

Paul describes the Ten Commandments as being "the ministration of death"--"written and engraved in stone."

Notice Paul did not say that the commandements kills people according to their mental perspective. But you say:

The law ministers death to all those under it even those who are DECEIVED into thinking it is ministering life to them instead of death BECAUSE OF THEIR GOOD WORKS!

You called what I said mumbo-jumbo but nothing you say here makes a lick of sense! why should anyone believe that the death spoken of here is anything other than "spiritual" death since Paul is contrasting that death to "spiritual" life:

"for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life..."

Of course the ministry of the Spirit brings "spiritual" life so common sense dictates that the law brings "spiritual" death. It is unimaginable that the "death" of which Paul speaks about is about anyone dying according to their mental perspective, as you imagine"

then he DIED according to his own mental perspective

Your answer to the following passage is equally ridiculous:

"For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:20-23).

Here is your interpretation (or perversion" of those words:

They formerly were not ashamed of "those things" because some formerly believed they were being approved by the law for LIFE when in fact the law never approved of their good works but such works were the basis for the law to condemn them to death.

How can anyone be condemned to death if they are already dead? Paul says that the end or result of the things of which they are now ashamed is "death." How can that be possible if they were already dead. Do you not realize that a person must first be alive before they can die?

Not only are you willing to pervert any Scriptures which contradict your false teaching but you are willing to throw your common sense to the wind in order to do so.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Here is the corrected definition of 'sola Biblicla'. : I am the sola person that can decide what the Biblica means. :saint:

 

[The Biblicist]

When you start perverting Scriptures you cannot understand what Paul is saying here:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

No, this is not the meaning and it is easy to prove it is not the meaning! All men have not sinned individually when Paul wrote this because there were infants alive when Paul wrote this who had not individually sinned. Not all men were yet born when Paul wrote this and yet the contrast between Christ and Adam MUST involve all humanity in some sense.

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world of ALL MANKIND when Adam sinned (because Satan had already introduced sin into heaven) and thus by one man's offence spiritual death was passed down to all mankind. (2) This spiritual death came to all men because all sinned in Adam as their representative just as all represented by Christ were justified by ONE MAN'S OBEDIENCE.

What this verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men.

What a joke! The text most certainly does tell us "how" Adam was response and the following context repeatedly tells us how "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" is how! By representation is "how" just as by representation is "how" Christ justified many.

However, the verses which follow were written in order to explain how Adam's sin brought death to all men:

"For until law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come" (Ro.5:13-14).

These verses are speaking of "law" in a universal sense (death passed to all men),

No it is not! It is proving that the violation of Genesis 2:16 is the only law that can be attributed to spiritual death being passed down to all men and any violation of the law of conscience merely is CONSEQUENTIAL and PROOF of all men born sinners by nature.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).

Paul is proving why Gentiles who do not have written revelation are still held accountable! Whatever the state of their conscience it provides "a law unto themselves" that they violate because they are sinners by nature and thus by choice.

"sin is not imputed when there is no law."

Now let us see just how you pervert the next passage:

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).

The only way you can defend your position is to put together a piece meal "Shugart" Bible version. Romans 7 deals with a completely different context and it is not dealing with infants but with adults who believe they are gaining eternal life by their works under the law. I have already dealt with your complete perversion of that text.

The argument here is very simple! All sinned when Adam sinned against the law in Genesis 2:16 becuase there was no other REVEALED law by God to man until Moses and yet death reigned over all men between Adam and Moses! Therefore, sin must be traced to "ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" against the only revealed law given to man by God in Genesis 2:16. Violation of their HIDDEN conscience merely demonstrated they were sinners by nature.

You say:

Paul says that he died and the commandment slew him. He did not say that he died "according to his own mental perspective." He did not say that the "law condemned him to death," as you imagine, but instead that it actually "slew" him.

In context he is showing that the law cannot sanctify a Christian (Rom. 7:1-5) any more than it could justify anyone by works of the law! He is not talking aboout infants or the age of accountability but he is talking about the false conception that one can be justified or sanctified by law keeping. You cannot be justified by law keeping (Rom. 7:6-13) and as a Christian you cannot be sanctified by law keeping (Rom. 7:14-25). The whole basis for attempting to be justified by the law (Rom. 7:6-13) is the false assumption that eternal life can be obtained by your works and thus life rather than death is the Law's view of your works. You don't understand the context so you cannot understand the text.

You refuse to believe what Paul says in regard to the fact that he died as a result of breaking the law even though you have been provided with the following passage:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones" (2 Cor.3:6-8).

Paul describes the Ten Commandments as being "the ministration of death"--"written and engraved in stone."

Notice Paul did not say that the commandements kills people according to their mental perspective.

The letter killeth because it is a "ministration of death." Only the naive and ignorant attempt to obtain eternal life by this ministration of the law and yet Paul had been that way and so had many of the readers of his epistles.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All men have not sinned individually when Paul wrote this because there were infants alive when Paul wrote this who had not individually sinned.

This demonstrates just how far your are willing to go to twist the Scriptures. Of course when Paul used the word "men" he was not including "infants" in that category.

I no longer have time for this type of exegesis.

I can see that there is nothing that could possibly convince you that you are wrong because you are somehow able to trick your mind into believing such nonsense.

 

[The Biblicist]

This demonstrates just how far your are willing to go to twist the Scriptures. Of course when Paul used the word "men" he was not including "infants" in that category.

I suppose he was not including women either huh????? The term translated "men" is anthopose and includes ALL that are human, infants, children, teenagers, young adults, men and women.

I no longer have time for this type of exegesis.

When you will start to present something exegetically based? You jerk one text from one context and marry it with another text from another context and then interpret them contrary to the context in which each are found. I have not found any serious exegesis yet on your part.

I can see that there is nothing that could possibly convince you that you are wrong because you are somehow able to trick your mind into believing such nonsense.

I have placed evidence before you that you have not yet been able to answer.

1. Biblical data that proves infants are born with a sin nature

2. Distinction between man created in the "image" of God and yet without a "moral" image like God.

3. Jesus denying that there "IS" anyone existent but "ONE" that is instrinsically "good" by nature.

4. Paul denying that there are any Gentiles or Jews that DO good or ARE good - NO, NOT ONE.

5. etc., etc., etc.
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