This Do, and Thou Shalt Live

[Jerry Shugart]

I suppose he was not including women either huh????? The term translated "men" is anthopose and includes ALL that are human, infants, children, teenagers, young adults, men and women.

Let us look at the verse again:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Here Paul is saying that death passed upon all men because all have sinned. But since that proves you wrong you say:

All men have not sinned individually when Paul wrote this because there were infants alive when Paul wrote this who had not individually sinned.

So you are saying that the word "men" refers to all human beings and that incldes infants. You say that to try to prove that Paul is not speaking about anyone individually sinning at Romans 5:12.

However, verse 14 speaks of individual sins:

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come" (Ro.5:14).

Are you saying that the following verse means that "all" have sinned in Adam? According to your reasoning Paul cannot be speaking of individual sins because thetre were infants who had not yet sinned:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23).

 

[The Biblicist]

Let us look at the verse again:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Here Paul is saying that death passed upon all men because all have sinned. But since that proves you wrong you say:

So you are saying that the word "men" refers to all human beings and that incldes infants. You say that to try to prove that Paul is not speaking about anyone individually sinning at Romans 5:12.

It does not prove me wrong at all! The fact is your intended meaning makes the text read "all men SHALL sin as individuals some day" rather than "all men HAVE sinned."

Your theory demands the text to read in total:

"Whereas, by one man law entered into the world and death by law; and so law passed upon all men; for all men SHALL sin individually one day by breaking the law introduced by Adam's offence."

That is how you interpret it but it says no such thing.

However, verse 14 speaks of individual sins:

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come" (Ro.5:14).

Are you saying that the following verse means that "all" have sinned in Adam? According to your reasoning Paul cannot be speaking of individual sins because thetre were infants who had not yet sinned:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23).

Your translation of verse 14 makes the Aorist active participle a noun "sins" rather than a completed action "sinned." Your translation makes their sins a declaration of fact rather than a denial of fact "not sinned" like the similitude of Adam's sin.

Paul's argument from Romans 5:12-19 is that sin and death is restricted to "ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" and that is the offence in Genesis 2:16 by which "MANY WERE MADE SINNERS."

Verses 13-14 provide logical arguments to prove that the repeated thesis in verses 15-19 that BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS by nature instead of by MANY OFFENCES by ALL men.


1. There was no other REVEALED law to man by God than the law Adam broke in Genesis 2:16 (not Genesis 3:22) between Adam and Moses.

2. There are those who die between Adam and Moses who did not commit willful acts of sin as did Adam - infants and mentally incapable people die - and therefore the only cause must be when Adam willfully violate the Genesis 2:16 law. And the death of infants and mentally incapable is still proof that violation of Gen. 2:16 by Adam must be the cause of death in infants and not in personal violations of conscience or any other individual acts of sin by his posterity.

3. This is proven by verses 15-19 by the repeated "BY ONE MAN" as the cause for MANY to be dead, condemned, judged.

However, your theory and interpretation repudiates Paul's repeated cause "BY ONE MAN" from Romans 5:12 to 5:19.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul's argument from Romans 5:12-19 is that sin and death is restricted to "ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" and that is the offence in Genesis 2:16 by which "MANY WERE MADE SINNERS."

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).

Of course a person cannot be a "sinner" until he commits an individual sin just like a man cannot become a "killer" until he kills someone and he cannot become a "robber" until he robs someone.

So the following verse is speaking about men committing "individual" sins:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Death passed upon all men because all have sinned and as a result they become "sinners." You would have us believe that men become "sinners" without ever committing an individual sin!

When Paul preached to the people he "reasoned with them out of the Scriptures":

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures" (Acts 17:2).

In order to believe your ideas we must throw our reason to the wind!

 

[The Biblicist]

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).

Of course a person cannot be a "sinner" until he commits an individual sin just like a man cannot become a "killer" until he kills someone and he cannot become a "robber" until he robs someone.

Your problem is your failure to recognize that Adam consisted of the whole human nature when he sinned, thus all mankind sinned when he sinned. Just as Levi was in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchezidec:

Heb. 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

In order to believe your ideas we must throw our reason to the wind!

Well, it seems Paul reasons like I do! He says Levi paid tithes to Mechisedec when he was in the loins of his father when his father paid tithes. Hence, When Abraham acted so did Levi.

Likewise, when our father sinned "all men have sinned" because the whole human race was in the loins of Adam.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Well, it seems Paul reasons like I do!

Of course in order to assert that you have to ADD WORDS to what he said in the following manner:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

Anyone can make the Bible say anything which they want it to say by using your methods. Let us look at the unedited version of Pauls words:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Here Paul is saying that death passed upon all men because all have sinned. But since that proves you wrong you say:

All men have not sinned individually when Paul wrote this because there were infants alive when Paul wrote this who had not individually sinned.

Of course the following verse in the context proves that the subject is indeed individual sins:

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come" (Ro.5:14).

"those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam."

There is no doubt that this is speaking of people sinning individually because their sins are expressly contrasted to Adam's sin. And your answer does not address that fact:

Your translation of verse 14 makes the Aorist active participle a noun "sins" rather than a completed action "sinned." Your translation makes their sins a declaration of fact rather than a denial of fact "not sinned" like the similitude of Adam's sin.

Yes, Paul is speaking of their individual sins as being fact and he makes it plain that the sins of which he is speaking is NOT Adam's sin.

The following verse also indicates that Paul is speaking of those who had individually sinned:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).

A person cannot be a "sinner" until he commits an individual sin just like a man cannot become a "killer" until he kills someone and he cannot become a "robber" until he robs someone.

To this you said:

Your problem is your failure to recognize that Adam consisted of the whole human nature when he sinned, thus all mankind sinned when he sinned. Just as Levi was in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchezidec:

Heb. 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

First of all, if that is the meaning which Paul was attempting to place on his words at Romans 5:12 then why didn't he say that? If you are right he would have said, "We all sinned in Adam because we were all in his loins when he sinned." But of course Paul said no such thing.

Secondly, according to your idea Abel bore the iniquity of his father Adam despite the evidence to the contrary:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).

According to your reasoning and interpretation of Romans 5:12 Paul cannot possibly be speaking of individual sins in the following verse because at the time when Paul wrote those words there were infants who had not yet sinned:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23).

Is this verse speaking of people committing individual sins or not?

Thanks!

 

[The Biblicist]

Of course in order to assert that you have to ADD WORDS to what he said in the following manner:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

This is precisely what REPRESENTATION means or as Paul says it another way in 1 Cor. 15:22

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This is the same chapter that presents Christ as the Second Adam:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.....48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

This is the design in Romans 5:14 and spelled out in contrast of only TWO men in verses 15-19.

Anyone can make the Bible say anything which they want it to say by using your methods.

So my method is perfectly Biblical and contextually accurate:

Your problem is your failure to recognize that Adam consisted of the whole human nature when he sinned, thus all mankind sinned when he sinned. Just as Levi was in the loins of Abraham when Abraham paid tithes to Melchezidec:

Heb. 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Thus by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY "BE" DEAD spirituall

Thus by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS by nature

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is precisely what REPRESENTATION means or as Paul says it another way in 1 Cor. 15:22

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The fact of the matter is that man does something in order to be "in Christ" or to be indentified with Him, and that is to believe the gospel. The same principle applies to being "in Adam." A person is not identified with Adam until he sins.

Your problem is your failure to recognize that Adam consisted of the whole human nature when he sinned, thus all mankind sinned when he sinned.

First of all, if that is the meaning which Paul was attempting to place on his words at Romans 5:12 then why didn't he say that? If you are right he would have said, "We all sinned in Adam because we were all in his loins when he sinned." But of course Paul said no such thing.

Secondly, according to your idea Abel bore the iniquity of his father Adam despite the evidence to the contrary:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).

To make your theology fit what Paul said you are forced to add words to what he said (in bold):

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

Anyone can make the Bible say anything which they want it to say by using your methods. Let us look at the unedited version of Pauls words:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Here Paul is saying that death passed upon all men because all have sinned. But since that proves you wrong you say:

All men have not sinned individually when Paul wrote this because there were infants alive when Paul wrote this who had not individually sinned.

Of course the following verse in the context proves that the subject is indeed individual sins:

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come" (Ro.5:14).

"those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam."

There is no doubt that this is speaking of people sinning individually because their sins are expressly contrasted to Adam's sin. The following verse also indicates that Paul is speaking of those who had individually sinned:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).

A person cannot be a "sinner" until he commits an individual sin just like a man cannot become a "killer" until he kills someone and he cannot become a "robber" until he robs someone.

According to your reasoning and interpretation of Romans 5:12 Paul cannot possibly be speaking of individual sins in the following verse because at the time when Paul wrote those words there were infants who had not yet sinned:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23).

Is this verse speaking of people committing individual sins or not?

Thanks!

 

[savedbymercy]

jerry

The fact of the matter is that man does something in order to be "in Christ" or to be indentified with Him,

This is false teaching, man does absolutely nothing to be in Christ, no more than he did to be in Adam ! With both it was God's Sovereign prerogative !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

This is false teaching, man does absolutely nothing to be in Christ, no more than he did to be in Adam ! With both it was God's Sovereign prerogative !

So a person just wakes up one morning and all of a sudden he is saved? The Lord Jesus' disciples did not share your opinion because when they were asked what a person must do to be saved, they answered:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

Either you are not aware of these verses or you know more about this that did those who actually learned these things from the Lord Jesus. Here is what He said:

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

 

[The Biblicist]

So a person just wakes up one morning and all of a sudden he is saved? The Lord Jesus' disciples did not share your opinion because when they were asked what a person must do to be saved, they answered:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

Either you are not aware of these verses or you know more about this that did those who actually learned these things from the Lord Jesus. Here is what He said:

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

Where is your text that says man does something to be "in Christ"? Paul says we were "CHOSEN in him" before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). Paul says we were "His WORKmanship CREATED in him (Eph. 1:4). Paul says "But of him are ye in Christ" (1 Cor. 1:30).

But where is the scripture Jerry that says we did something that placed us "in" Christ for redemption?

 

[The Biblicist]

First of all, if that is the meaning which Paul was attempting to place on his words at Romans 5:12 then why didn't he say that? If you are right he would have said, "We all sinned in Adam because we were all in his loins when he sinned." But of course Paul said no such thing.

1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die,"

What happened to "all" in Adam? "by the offence of one many BE DEAD" - "by one man's offence many were MADE SINNERS."

Paul does not say by the OFFENCES PLURAL of MANY PLURAL many "BE DEAD" or many were MADE SINNERS - but that is what your false doctrine requires Paul to say to fit your interpretation of Romans 5:12.

Your interpretation of Romans 5:12 requires it to mean "by one man LAW entered into the world" but it does not say or mean that as the following context shows.

Secondly, according to your idea Abel bore the iniquity of his father Adam despite the evidence to the contrary:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).

You repeat this same vain foolish argument over and over in spite of the fact that Adam did not act in the capacity as a mere father but as a REPRESENTATIVE man and an REPRESENTATIVE act "by ONE man's offence".

To make your theology fit what Paul said you are forced to add words to what he said (in bold):

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die,"

What happened to "all" in Adam? "by the offence of one many BE DEAD" - "by one man's offence many were MADE SINNERS."

Paul does not say by the OFFENCES PLURAL of MANY PLURAL many "BE DEAD" or many were MADE SINNERS - but that is what your false doctrine requires Paul to say to fit your interpretation of Romans 5:12.

Anyone can make the Bible say anything which they want it to say by using your methods. Let us look at the unedited version of Pauls words:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

My interpretation fits the explanatory immediate and overall context PERFECTLY! However, yours makes Paul's words say:

"Wherefore, as by one man LAW entered into the world, and death by LAW; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12)

Of course the following verse in the context proves that the subject is indeed individual sins:

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come" (Ro.5:14).

"those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam."

There is no doubt that this is speaking of people sinning individually because their sins are expressly contrasted to Adam's sin.

You jerk this text out of context and make it fit your theory and then choose a translation to harmonize with your error. His argument is very simple and the over all context keeps on repeating the point of this argument - "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE" not by MANY MEN'S OFFENCE as you interpretation demands.

The only LAW revealed by God to man was Genesis 2:16 and only Adam violated that law and NTHER HUMAN BEING violated that law but Adam and it is through that ONE MAN and his ONE OFFENCE many "BE DEAD" many be "MADE SINNERS" and many were condemned and the proof is that NTHER LAW was revealed to men living between Adam and Moses and yet all living between Adam and Moses died and so death must be traced back to violation of that ONE REVEALED LAW by ONE MAN.

Secondly, since all die who are incapable of having sinned willfully and intentionally (infants and mentally handicapped) then the only cause of their death must be traced bact to ONE MAN'S OFFENCE of that ONE REALED LAW in Geneis 2:16.

You are a false teacher and you will not receive the truth because you have no spiritual capacity for truth and your responses prove it to me.

The following verse also indicates that Paul is speaking of those who had individually sinned:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).

A person cannot be a "sinner" until he commits an individual sin just like a man cannot become a "killer" until he kills someone and he cannot become a "robber" until he robs someone.

You repeat the same disproven arguments over and over and over again YET IGNORINING THE EVIDENCE THAT SUCH ARE ERRONEOUS and IRRATIONAL thinking! All humanity acted in Adam when Adam sinned and that is precisely why Paul keeps on repeating "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY" be dead, condemned, were made sinners. Adam acted as a REPRESENTATIVE MAN and thus when he acted he acted in behalf of all he represented and that is why all DIE and all are "condemned already" when the come into the world and the death of infants PROVE IT as infants die without any individual willful act of sin other than BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY BE DEAD!

According to your reasoning and interpretation of Romans 5:12 Paul cannot possibly be speaking of individual sins in the following verse because at the time when Paul wrote those words there were infants who had not yet sinned:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23).

Jerking texts out of context and jamming them together is you MO! We sin because we are SINNERS by nature and by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS by nature. We die because we are spiritual DEAD by nature because "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY BE DEAD" by nature.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Where is your text that says man does something to be "in Christ"?

Here are your own words from another thread:

There is no salvation OUTSIDE of Christ and there is no way to be placed "in" Christ but through special revelation of KNOWLEDGE of God through CHRIST:

I say that no one can be "in Christ" unless they are saved. Are you willing to argue that there are unsaved people "in Christ"?

Paul says we were "CHOSEN in him" before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).

Yes, but no one is chosen "in Him" before he believes. Here Paul tells us exactly how God choses men for salvation from the beginning:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

God choses for salvation those who believe, and this is done according to His foreknowledge. Here is another verse that teaches that truth:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "according" at 1 Peter 1:2 is "in consequence of" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So the saved are described as "elect" and their election is "in consequence of" God's foreknowledge.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1My interpretation fits the explanatory immediate and overall context PERFECTLY!

Sadly, you interpretation depends on adding words to what Paul said here:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Spiritual death comes as a result of a person's sin. But since that doesn't fit your mistaken view you simply add the following words in bold:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

Of course anyone can make the Bible say anything using that method.

 

[The Biblicist]

Sadly, you interpretation depends on adding words to what Paul said here:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Spiritual death comes as a result of a person's sin. But since that doesn't fit your mistaken view you simply add the following words in bold:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

Of course anyone can make the Bible say anything using that method.

You stray from the obvious and repeated theme of Paul "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY BE DEAD"

Note he did not say "shall be" dead. He is not talking about departed already in heaven! He is talking about the SPIRITUAL NATURE of all mankind! This is the "DEATH" that was PASSED DOWN generationally because of ONE MAN'S OFFENCE!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You stray from the obvious and repeated theme of Paul "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY BE DEAD"

No, I have never strayed away from that.

What I do not do is add words to what Paul said in order to make what he said fit my ideas. Spiritual death comes as a result of a person's own sin. But since that doesn't fit your mistaken view you simply add the following words in bold:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

Of course anyone can make the Bible say anything using that method. Here is another example where it is made plain that death results from one's own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:13-15).

A person does not become dead in Adam's sin but instead in his own sin:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).

If a person is born dead in Adam and Eve's sins then it is obvious that he cannot become dead as a result of his own sins. That is because a person must first be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually.

This is the "DEATH" that was PASSED DOWN generationally because of ONE MAN'S OFFENCE!

Of course you say that because that is the teaching of Calvinism:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith,(VI/3).

If that is right then there can be no doubt that Abel bore the iniquity of his father Adam. However, the Scriptures make it plain that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).

 

[The Biblicist]

No, I have never strayed away from that.

What I do not do is add words to what Paul said in order to make what he said fit my ideas. Spiritual death comes as a result of a person's own sin. But since that doesn't fit your mistaken view you simply add the following words in bold:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

Of course anyone can make the Bible say anything using that method. Here is another example where it is made plain that death results from one's own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:13-15).

A person does not become dead in Adam's sin but instead in his own sin:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).

If a person is born dead in Adam and Eve's sins then it is obvious that he cannot become dead as a result of his own sins. That is because a person must first be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually.

Of course you say that because that is the teaching of Calvinism:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith,(VI/3).

If that is right then there can be no doubt that Abel bore the iniquity of his father Adam. However, the Scriptures make it plain that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).

Just repeating the same thing over and over again while ignoring the evidence that shows your interpretation is false.

The words "BE DEAD" in verse 15 prove your position and interpretation are wrong!

It is an AORIST ACTIVE INDICATIVE and thus it is not BY OUR OFFENCES we died but BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY BE DEAD or more literally "DIED"! That death occurred when that offence occurred as it is by one man's "OFFENCE" we died.

Hence, this proves SPIRITUAL DEATH of the whole human race occurred when Adam Sinned and thus our sins are manifestations of that previous SPIRITUAL DEATH that occurred when Adam Sinned.

You can ignore it, you can cry about it, you can attempt to pervert it, but that is a grammatical fact that you cannot overthrow which demonstrates your whole interpretation scheme is false as well as your doctrine.

This proves that

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: Just repeating the same thing over and over again while ignoring the evidence that shows your interpretation is false.

The words "BE DEAD" in verse 15 prove your position and interpretation are wrong!

It is an AORIST ACTIVE INDICATIVE and thus it is not BY OUR OFFENCES we died but BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY BE DEAD or more literally "DIED"! That death occurred when that offence occurred as it is by one man's "OFFENCE" we died.

Hence, this proves SPIRITUAL DEATH of the whole human race occurred when Adam Sinned and thus our sins are manifestations of that previous SPIRITUAL DEATH that occurred when Adam Sinned.

You can ignore it, you can cry about it, you can attempt to pervert it, but that is a grammatical fact that you cannot overthrow which demonstrates your whole interpretation scheme is false as well as your doctrine.

This proves that

HP: Those 'many that be dead,' had to die 'in Adam' due to a verb tense. Amazing. Simply amazing. Language is not bound to the strict gramatical limitations you seem to indicate it is.

Have you ever heard of common parlance? Because of one mans offense, many be dead. Lets see. A man went out and removed a stop sign at night, and in doing so committed an offense. Consequently several motorist ended up dead not having the sign to warn them of the danger. They were dead due to the actions of another. According to you they would have all had to die at the very time the sign was removed, and spiritually so, correct?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sinners by nature...... Hmmmmmm.

How do some, grammatically of course, magically know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that if the word 'nature' is used in a sentence, it always refers to original sin and being born sinners? I certainly did not excel in English, but I certainly missed out on some of these absolute principles of grammar that some use so absolutely. I first think about natural physical things when nature is spoken of. Could it possibly be some verb tense I am missing out on that forces the word 'nature' to indicate a man is a sinner from birth?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

By the way, I need some help finding a text with 'sinful nature' in it. I want to check it for gramattical (sic) purposes.

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: Those 'many that be dead,' had to die 'in Adam' due to a verb tense. Amazing. Simply amazing. Language is not bound to the strict gramatical limitations you seem to indicate it is.

So, you simply change the Bible to fit your theory. Of course that is exactly what you have done all through this debate so no surprise. This means no matter what grammatical or contextual evidence presented you would simply dismiss it, ignore it or change it to fit your own belly (desires).

Have you ever heard of common parlance? Because of one mans offense, many be dead. Lets see. A man went out and removed a stop sign at night, and in doing so committed an offense. Consequently several motorist ended up dead not having the sign to warn them of the danger. They were dead due to the actions of another. According to you they would have all had to die at the very time the sign was removed, and spiritually so, correct?

Your illustration as well as your interpretation completely ignore that Adam and Christ are equally being used as REPRESENTATIVE MEN. If a man went out and removed a stop sign at night as REPRESENTATIVE for all other motorists then what he did REPRESENTED them WHEN he did it. Hence, when he removed the sign MANY removed the sign. When he sinned MANY SINNED. When he was condemned MANY were condemned and WHEN he died MANY DIED!

You have shown and do show that it does not matter what Biblical, logical or practical evidences expose your position as obvious error, you will dismiss them and keep on beleiving your error regardless.

The Aorist tense destroys your position - Grammar

The Representative capacity in this context destroys your position - Context

The fact that children NEVER have to be trained to do evil but it comes NATURAL from the womb destroys your position - Practical evidence