Born in Sins

[DHK]

The verse says that the Lord Jesus was made like his brothers in every way. Here is the "condition" of his "brothers" as defined by the Calvinist's themselves:

I am not a Calvinist, so your point is moot.

According to this the "condition" of the brothers" of Hebrews 2:17 is one deprived of original righteousness. So if you are right that a human is made deprived of original righteousness then we must throw our reason to the wind and believe that the Lord Jesus was likewise made deprived of human righteousness because the Scriptures state in no uncertain terms that He is made like us IN ALL THINGS:

That is the logical conclusion that you must come to.
The virgin birth was all in vain. It had no purpose. Jesus was born a sinner like us.

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people"

(Heb.2:17).

Then why are you a sinner, and Christ was not?
Why are you not able to live a sinless life, and Christ was able to live a sinless life?

Go back and answer my previous post, point by point.

 

[convicted1]

Tell me, isn't it just as unjust according to your line of logic for his posterity to have death "passed" to them as it would to have his sin "passed" to them???

God creates us with the cursed ground, and that being "in Adam", means we get the same punishment, death. The soul comes from Him, do you not agre?

Death is a consequence of sin (Rom. 3:23) if you did no personal sin then why personal death? Why do infants die?

Infants die due to their bodies being "in Adam". That is why they have sicknesses.

Your argument backfires on you!

Nope.

 

[DHK]

I know no such thing. his comments about Original Sin matches the views held by the Calvinists.

The Calvinist believes in Total Inability. I don't
I believe that man is born with a sin nature, a depraved nature. But I don't believe in Total Inability. Once you find out the difference between the two, you will come closer in knowing what I believe.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe that man is born with a sin nature, a depraved nature.

If that is true then the "brothers" spoken of in the following verse were also born with a sin nature:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

Do you affirm that according to your view the "brothers" spoken of in that verse were made with with a sin nature?

 

[convicted1]

The Calvinist believes in Total Inability. I don't
I believe that man is born with a sin nature, a depraved nature. But I don't believe in Total Inability. Once you find out the difference between the two, you will come closer in knowing what I believe.

But don't you believe we are born sinners? I am not trying to put words in your posts, but that's akin to what the Calvinists believe.

 

[The Biblicist]

God creates us with the cursed ground, and that being "in Adam", means we get the same punishment, death. The soul comes from Him, do you not agre?




Infants die due to their bodies being "in Adam". That is why they have sicknesses.



Nope.

Condemnation of sin is death! Agree! However, if Adam did not represent anyone but himself by his act of sin, then his sin should not be imparted or imputed to anyone but himself and therefore neither should the consequence of sin be imputed or imputed to anyone but himself as it is equally unjust to impute or impart either sin or its consequences to anyone but the one sinning IF they do not represent anyone but themselves in that act of sin!


However, if death is "passed" down becuase of Adam's sin then the only just conclusion is that his sin is equally being passed down or else there is no just grounds for infants to die IF Adam did not represent them in his sin. IF Adam did not represent them in his sin then they cannot be the object of his condemnation!

If the soul of the infant can be born pure without sin and IF God is the one who creates the body of the infant in the womb then there is no LOGICAL CAUSE for the death of infants at all IF Adam did not represent them by his sin!

 

[DHK]

But don't you believe we are born sinners? I am not trying to put words in your posts, but that's akin to what the Calvinists believe.

Yes, we are born in sin; born sinners; born with a depraved nature. I believe all of that.
The Calvinist believes in Total Inability; that man has no ability to come to Christ unless he is first regenerated by God. God must regenerate him first. God must give to him faith in order to believe. That is why it is more accurately called "inability." He is unable to believe. I don't believe that. I believe that "whosoever will may come," at any time; that regeneration happens at the same time that salvation does. I don't believe that God must give faith to man in order to believe. The Bible does not teach that. He gives man the opportunity to believe.

Yet we are born sinners, born in sin, with the ability to believe.

 

[convicted1]

Condemnation of sin is death! Agree! However, if Adam did not represent anyone but himself by his act of sin, then his sin should not be imparted or imputed to anyone but himself and therefore neither should the consequence of sin be imputed or imputed to anyone but himself as it is equally unjust to impute or impart either sin or its consequences to anyone but the one sinning IF they do not represent anyone but themselves in that act of sin!


However, if death is "passed" down becuase of Adam's sin then the only just conclusion is that his sin is equally being passed down or else there is no just grounds for infants to die IF Adam did not represent them in his sin. IF Adam did not represent them in his sin then they cannot be the object of his condemnation!

If the soul of the infant can be born pure without sin and IF God is the one who creates the body of the infant in the womb then there is no LOGICAL CAUSE for the death of infants at all IF Adam did not represent them by his sin!

Look, the physical body is made "in Adam" and when God sees it, He sees sin, and His wrath is upon it. Now, when the soul comes from Him, it is not guilty. When they willfully, and knowingly sin, God accounts/imputes sin unto the soul, and then the state of condemnation takes place. Then God's wrath is upon the soul due to the soul sinning. It is then, that in His mercy, He calls for the soul to be brought back to Himself. Reconciliation takes place upon those who accept His offer. To be reconciled means to be brought back, correct? How can anything be brought back, without having been there to start with? How can anyone be redeemed(bought back) w/o being owned to begin with? Read Hosea's story. He bought Gomer back becasue she belonged to him through marraige. If he wasn't with her, he couldn't have bought her back with the 1.5 homers of barley and 15 pieces of silver. You can't buy back what was yours to begin with.

Jesus redeemed us by His death, burial, and resurrection. How could we be redeemed if we weren't His to begin with?

 

[convicted1]

Yes, we are born in sin; born sinners; born with a depraved nature. I believe all of that.
The Calvinist believes in Total Inability; that man has no ability to come to Christ unless he is first regenerated by God. God must regenerate him first. God must give to him faith in order to believe. That is why it is more accurately called "inability." He is unable to believe. I don't believe that. I believe that "whosoever will may come," at any time; that regeneration happens at the same time that salvation does. I don't believe that God must give faith to man in order to believe. The Bible does not teach that. He gives man the opportunity to believe.

Yet we are born sinners, born in sin, with the ability to believe.

What sins did we commit to make us sinners? Carl Lewis was an olympian, so I guess he was born an olympian? I agree that we all will sin, but to be born sinners, means we had to have sinned to begin with. One doesn't become a criminal until they break the law. One doesn't become a murderer until they kill. One doesn't become a theif until they sin. One doesn't become a liar until they lie.

 

[Pastor David]

Yes, we are born in sin; born sinners; born with a depraved nature. I believe all of that.
The Calvinist believes in Total Inability; that man has no ability to come to Christ unless he is first regenerated by God. God must regenerate him first. God must give to him faith in order to believe. That is why it is more accurately called "inability." He is unable to believe. I don't believe that. I believe that "whosoever will may come," at any time; that regeneration happens at the same time that salvation does. I don't believe that God must give faith to man in order to believe. The Bible does not teach that. He gives man the opportunity to believe.

Yet we are born sinners, born in sin, with the ability to believe.

DHK, when Paul says people are 'dead in trepasses and sins' - Eph. 2:1;

a. do you believe he means 'spiritually' dead?

b. do you believe 'dead' means dead? (equating spiritual death with physical death? Hint: Who raised Lazuras from the dead, himself or Jesus?)

c. and if you believe dead means dead, from where does spiritual life come?

Thanks!

 

[billwald]

What does "in" mean? I hate two letter words because they have so many different meanings. For example, "Greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world." "in" seems to have two different meanings in one sentence.

 

[The Biblicist]

Look, the physical body is made "in Adam"

Did God make the human body sinful? IF Adam never represented anyone but himself by his sin then why should the body of anyone else suffer the consequence except the body of Adam?

Look, the physical body is made "in Adam"

Wasn't the human soul and spirit made "in Adam" as well? Did God create it sinful?

If Adam simply represented Adam by his sin then only the soul and body of Adam should suffer the consequence of his own sin.

The only way that infants can suffer death is for Adam to have represented them in his act of sin! If the body of infants suffer the consequences of Adam's sin so should the souls of infants suffer the consequences of Adam's sin because both were equally made GOOD in Adam.

There is no just basis to pass "death" down to anyone body or soul if no one else was reprsented by Adam's offence!

 

[convicted1]

Did God make the human body sinful? IF Adam never represented anyone but himself by his sin then why should the body of anyone else suffer the consequence except the body of Adam?



Wasn't the human soul and spirit made "in Adam" as well? Did God create it sinful?

If Adam simply represented Adam by his sin then only the soul and body of Adam should suffer the consequence of his own sin.

The only way that infants can suffer death is for Adam to have represented them in his act of sin! If the body of infants suffer the consequences of Adam's sin so should the souls of infants suffer the consequences of Adam's sin because both were equally made GOOD in Adam.

There is no just basis to pass "death" down to anyone body or soul if no one else was reprsented by Adam's offence!

Again, Christ was born of a woman, born under the Law, to "re"deem them that were under the Law. How could Christ possibly redeem something that wasn't His to begin with?

John 15 NIV
The Vine and the Branches
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.


Here, Jesus is talking about the Jews who were cut off due to their continual rebellion and unbelief. They were cut out, considering they were God's chosen people to begin with. So the Jews belonged to God, but were cut off due to their failure to believe what God told them through the Prophets.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again, Christ was born of a woman, born under the Law, to "re"deem them that were under the Law. How could Christ possibly redeem something that wasn't His to begin with?

Why are you ignoring my questions? We would not even have to talk about redemption if death was not "passed" from Adam to infants would we???

What is the just basis for passing death to infants and we all enter the world as infants do we not?

There is no just basis for passing death to infants UNLESS infants were represented by Adam in his sin! Isn't that exactly what Paul says when he said:

"BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE many BE DEAD"!

Why are MANY "dead"? Because of "one man's offence"!

Harmonize that with "death passed upon all men, for all have sinned"

Are these two passages giving TWO different reasons why people die or saying the same thing?

Are many "dead" because of "one man's offence" OR are "all men" dead because "all have sinned" as individuals???

I submit to you that Romans 5:12 is merely claiming that all men "sinned" (Aorist tense punctillar) when Adam sinned because Adam sinned as their representative and so "BY one man's offence MANY be dead"

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Did God make the human body sinful?

Of course not!

IF Adam never represented anyone but himself by his sin then why should the body of anyone else suffer the consequence except the body of Adam?

The reason that Adam died physically is the same reason that we do not live forever in our mortal bodies. We do not have access to the very thing which keeps our mortal bodies alive:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

 

[The Biblicist]

Of course not!

The reason that Adam died physically is the same reason that we do not live forever in our mortal bodies. We do not have access to the very thing which keeps our mortal bodies alive:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

So death was not passed down due to sin but due to the way we are naturally made???????? Nice try but no prize! Paul says, "death BY sin" and "BY one man's offence many be dead"

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So death was not passed down due to sin but due to the way we are naturally made????????

That is not what I said.

Our "physical" death was due to the sin of Adam because as a result of his sin man was denied the very thing which was provided to keep the mortal body living:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

Of course you just ignored what was said there and revert to your same old same old:

Nice try but no prize! Paul says, "death BY sin" and "BY one man's offence many be dead"

Yes, and there Paul is speaking about spiritual death. And he says that spiritual death comes as a result of a man's own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

 

[The Biblicist]

That is not what I said.

Our "physical" death was due to the sin of Adam because as a result of his sin man was denied the very thing which was provided to keep the mortal body living:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

Of course you just ignored what was said there and revert to your same old same old:

Yes, and there Paul is speaking about spiritual death. And he says that spiritual death comes as a result of a man's own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Your explanations are quite confusing. Let me give you the opportunity to make clear what you are saying.

1. Did Adam die spiritually in the time frame of the day he committed his offence against God as revealed in Genesis 2:16? Yes or No

2. If yes, is Adam's spiritual death attributed to his own personal sin?

3. If yes, is Adam's physical death attributed to his own personal sin?

4. If no, is Adam's physical death attributed to being cut off from the tree of life?

5. Is the physical death of infants attributed to their own personal sin?

6. Is the physical death of infants attributed to the sin of Adam?

7. Is the physical death of infants attributed to being cut off from the tree of life?

8. Is death "passed" upon all men purely by following the wrong example of Adam in committing personal sin against God?

 

[convicted1]

Did God make the human body sinful? IF Adam never represented anyone but himself by his sin then why should the body of anyone else suffer the consequence except the body of Adam?

To backtrack to show you I am not ignoring your questions. When God made Adam, it was from pre-cursed ground. It was a lifeless lump of clay, so to speak. After God cursed the ground because of Adam's sin, we are created in a cursed body. Life has never been in the flesh, but the soul. Adam was lifeless until God breathed the soul(life) into him. He came alive then. Because of Adam, we have a sin cursed body made from God cursed ground. The soul comes from God, which makes the inamimate body alive. When the soul leaves the body, the body will become lifeless then.

Wasn't the human soul and spirit made "in Adam" as well? Did God create it sinful?

The soul was breathed into Adam, the same way we get our soul. God gives life to the body that comes from the union of sperm-egg. No soul=no life. The soul that comes from God is not created sinful, but when it willingly and knowingly sins, then God imputes sin unto that soul.

If Adam simply represented Adam by his sin then only the soul and body of Adam should suffer the consequence of his own sin.

Our bodies are the "offspring" of Adam, being made from the same substance, the ground., Adam's body was made sinless, and would have lived until this day if he had not have sinned in the Garden. Sin bringeth forth death. We are made in the likeness of Adam, though our bodies are formed from the God cursed ground.

The only way that infants can suffer death is for Adam to have represented them in his act of sin! If the body of infants suffer the consequences of Adam's sin so should the souls of infants suffer the consequences of Adam's sin because both were equally made GOOD in Adam.

Correct! Adam's sin brought forth death. He died spiritually but not physically. You do know that he lived to be 930, so he lived for probably 900+ years after God told him he would die if he ate of that tree. We die spiritually when we knowingly and willingly sin, and God accounts/imputes sin unto us.

There is no just basis to pass "death" down to anyone body or soul if no one else was reprsented by Adam's offence!

Once you realize that the soul comes from God, then you'll see where I am coming from. If the soul comes from God in an already fallen/deads state, then God is what placed sin in us. Not so. We die when we sin, and not before.

 

[DHK]

If that is true then the "brothers" spoken of in the following verse were also born with a sin nature:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

Do you affirm that according to your view the "brothers" spoken of in that verse were made with with a sin nature?

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:17-18)

Absolutely. Look at the context. He took upon himself human nature. It was the same nature as Abraham (vs.16). It was human nature, nature that could be tempted, could suffer, thirst, hunger, could be tried in all ways such as we are.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (Hebrews 4:15)

He was touched with the feeling of our infirmities in all points like we are, and yet without sin. He had a human nature, not a sin nature. He was able to be tempted but did not yield to temptation. In that way he was qualified to be our Great High Priest. He did not have to come to the Holy of Holies and make a sacrifice for himself first. He made a sacrifice for all, for the sins of the whole world, and it was once for all. He didn't have to make an offering for himself, for his own sin, before making an atonement for the sins of the people. And he didn't have to do it every year. It was one time forever.

He identifies with our humanity. He is not identifying with our sin nature. He was born without sin--the very reason for the virgin birth.