Born in Sins

[The Biblicist]

To backtrack to show you I am not ignoring your questions. When God made Adam, it was from pre-cursed ground. It was a lifeless lupm of clay, so to speak. After Gid cursed the ground because of Adam's sin, we are created in a cursed body.

Adam was created from the ground but none of his posterity come into existence from the ground but instead are concevied in the womb of a mother not the ground! So what basis has the idea of "pre-cursed" versus "cursed" ground have anything to do with my body or your body?

Life has never been in the flesh, but the soul. Adam was lifeless until God breathed the soul(life) into him. He came alive then. Because of Adam, we have a sin cursed body made from God cursed ground. The soul comes from God, which makes the inamimate body alive. When the soul leaves the body, the body will become lifeless then.

Our body does not come from the ground whether viewed as pre-cursed or cursed! So your whole rational basis is wrong.

The soul was breathed into Adam, the same way we get our soul. God gives life to the body that comes from the union of sperm-egg. No soul=no life. The soul that comes from God is not created sinful, but when it willingly and knowingly sins, then God imputes sin unto that soul.

So does God breath life into every animal, ant, plant and living thing on planet earth when they are in the womb, egg or seed?

So the command to reproduce after your own kind really means reproduce lifeless forms after their own kind??

Our bodies are the "offspring" of Adam, being made from the same substance, the ground., Adam's body was made sinless, and would have lived until this day if he had not have sinned in the Garden. Sin bringeth forth sin. We are made in the likeness of Adam, though our bodies are formed from the God cursed ground.

Where do you get the idea that your body came from the ground?

Correct! Adam's sin brought forth death. He died spiritually but not physically. You do you that he lived to be 930, so he lived for probably 900+ years after God told him he would die if he ate of that tree. We die spiritually when we knowingly and willingly sin, and God accounts/imputes sin unto us.

You are not making sense here! Adam did eventually die physically just like we eventually die physically - no difference except what age people die which always varies.

I see you are attempting to make spiritual death due to personal sins but physical death due to originating from the "ground" instead of from Adam by reproduction.

Once you realize that the soul comes from God, then you'll see where I am coming from. If the soul comes from God in an already fallen/deads state, then God is what placed sin in us. Not so. We die when we sin, and not before.

So you believe that every human is directly created by God just as Adam was?? So much for "reproduce after your own kind"!!!! According to this line of logic humans and animals, plants and herbs merely reproduce lifeless dead material matter instead of living beings and plants. Hence, no seed has life in it by virture of being a seed but must be infused with life by God,, etc.

This does not explain HUMAN NATURE in regard to the soul within infants who very soon after birth express attitudes, words and actions that cannot be attributed to the fruit of the Spirit or to training or to rational willful decisions but are clearly what the Bible defines as fruit of the flesh!

 

[DHK]

DHK, when Paul says people are 'dead in trepasses and sins' - Eph. 2:1;

a. do you believe he means 'spiritually' dead?

b. do you believe 'dead' means dead? (equating spiritual death with physical death? Hint: Who raised Lazuras from the dead, himself or Jesus?)

c. and if you believe dead means dead, from where does spiritual life come?

Thanks!

In the Bible death means "separation."
In Genesis God told Adam: "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die."
Adam died.
But Adam, though dead, still talked with God. God still tried to woo Adam back to a place of repentance with every question he posed to him. How then was Adam dead?
He was spiritually separated from God. Sin separates us from God. Not until God himself provided a blood sacrifice (when he provided coats of skins) was Adam and Eve reconciled to God.

In Eph.2:1 "You who were dead in trespasses in sin..." They were separated from God. They were not lifeless, not corpses, not annihilated, etc. They were separated from God spiritually, and separated by sin. It goes on and tells us that they were "by nature children of wrath." Their very nature was sinful from birth. They were not children of God, but rather of the devil. They needed a new birth.

If we are not born with a depraved nature, why hasn't anyone lived a sinless life? Why the necessity of a Saviour--for all mankind?
Surely there must be someone in all the billions of mankind that should have lived a sinless life by now if we were not born sinners???
We sin because we are born sinners. I never had to teach my children how to lie; but I did have to teach them to tell the truth. It is in their nature to tell lies. They are born with a depraved nature.

Spiritual life comes from God. It comes when a sinner trusts the Lord as his Savior. At that time the Holy Spirit indwells him and gives him eternal life. I am not a Calvinist. I don't believe in regeneration and then salvation. I believe both take place at the same time. Both the Word and the work of the Spirit are necessary. The Spirit's work is to convict of sin as the Bible teaches in John 16. Jesus is life. He gives life and life more abundantly. He is the Saviour. The Holy Spirit in some inexplicable way, at the time of conversion, unites with our spirit, and we become the children of God. We are made spiritually alive.

1Pet.1:23 Being born again, not with corruptible things...but with the word of God which abideth forever.

 

[DHK]

What sins did we commit to make us sinners? Carl Lewis was an olympian, so I guess he was born an olympian? I agree that we all will sin, but to be born sinners, means we had to have sinned to begin with. One doesn't become a criminal until they break the law. One doesn't become a murderer until they kill. One doesn't become a theif until they sin. One doesn't become a liar until they lie.

Why did Jesus say you must be born again? Why weren't you born in his family to begin with?

Why did Jesus say to the Pharisees: "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do."

We were born into Satan's family. When Adam sinned he put this entire world, mankind included under a curse. Everyman inherited that curse via a sin nature. Unless you are born again you cannot enter into God's family. That is clear, not only from John 3, but also from John 1

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)
--If you want to be a child of God you must receive him and believe on his name. Why? Because you were not born into his family.
What family were you born into then?
Satan's family--a family having a sin nature.

Your illustrations are wrong.
An infant doesn't have to work at lying to become a liar. He is a liar by nature. Instead of using humanistic illustrations, use Biblical ones:

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. (Jeremiah 13:23)
--An Ethiopian is born with black skin. He cannot change that color. That is his nature, a nature which cannot be changed.
--A leopard is born with spots. That is his nature, a nature which cannot be changed.
--A man is born evil. That is his nature, a nature which cannot be changed without the intervention of God.
This is the clear teaching of this verse. Man is born with a sin nature, an evil nature that is accustomed to doing evil.

 

[Pastor David]

"Spiritual life comes from God." - DHK

I think to most Calvinists, this would make you one.

 

[DHK]

"Spiritual life comes from God." - DHK

I think to most Calvinists, this would make you one.

I don't know of any Christians who would disagree with that statement.
Who else would spiritual life come from?

 

[The Biblicist]

"Spiritual life comes from God." - DHK

I think to most Calvinists, this would make you one.

DHK calls me a Calvinist but I disclaim that title as much as he does. However, it is not an issue that spiritual life comes from God but rather how does it come from God that divides theological Calvnists from theological Arminians.

 

[Pastor David]

I don't know of any Christians who would disagree with that statement.
Who else would spiritual life come from?

I don't know. And I don't understand why Christians have such trouble with saying that if God does not choose to impart spiritual life to the sinner, then the sinner remains dead in trespasses and sins. As I understand it, this is the meat of Calvinistic doctrine. If Jesus had not raised Lazuras from the dead, he'd stayed dead. If God does not move upon the spirit of man, he remains dead, spiritually. This is Calvinism.

 

[Pastor David]

DHK calls me a Calvinist but I disclaim that title as much as he does. However, it is not an issue that spiritual life comes from God but rather how does it come from God that divides theological Calvnists from theological Arminians.

If spiritual life is anything less than being born again (i.e. a new life), and bringing the sinner into a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, it is hardly decent to call it spiritual life don't you think?

 

[DHK]

I don't know. And I don't understand why Christians have such trouble with saying that if God does not choose to impart spiritual life to the sinner, then the sinner remains dead in trespasses and sins. As I understand it, this is the meat of Calvinistic doctrine. If Jesus had not raised Lazuras from the dead, he'd stayed dead. If God does not move upon the spirit of man, he remains dead, spiritually. This is Calvinism.

Here is what I believe. I will try to differentiate my beliefs from what I have learned from the debates on the Baptist Theology forum where Calvinism is a favorite topic for discussion/debate.

I believe that a man has a sin nature from birth, and yet at the same time he is responsible for his sins (when he comes to an age that he realizes that).
There is only one way to heaven; one way for forgiveness of sins, and that is through Christ.
When one recognizes his sinfulness, he must come through Christ to obtain salvation. There is no other way.
I believe that "Whosoever shall call upon the name shall be saved."
When presented with the gospel man has a choice whether to believe or not to believe.
What is essential is the Word of God--the gospel, and the Holy Spirit. But the part of the Holy Spirit is simply that of convicting the sinner of sin. Salvation is by faith. One must call upon Christ by faith; trust him as Savior.

The Calvinist believes that all of this is foreordained before the foundation of the world, and man doesn't have a choice in the matter. He believes that regeneration must precede salvation, and it could be up to days--an indefinite period of time. He believes that the faith to believe the gospel is a gift from God (which the Bible does not teach). Thus he explains it this way:
The Holy Spirit in some inexplicable, undefinable way (that not even the Calvinist can explain) regenerates the elect.
At that point God gives him the faith that enables him to believe the gospel.
Then he can call upon the name of the Lord. Then he can be saved.

Salvation to them is a process. Salvation to me is a one-time act. Regeneration and salvation take place at the same time. Faith is inherent in the believer. God has given faith from birth--the ability to believe. It is not a special gift. He does not give spiritual gifts to the unsaved, if it be considered one.

He does not elect some to heaven and some to hell.
There are different forms of Calvinism. To some, God becomes the author of evil. Not all believe this. I am only following the debates in the theology forum and the logical conclusion of many is that God must be the author of evil.

I don't agree with any of the five points of Calvinism as Calvin taught them.

 

[Amy.G]

I believe that a man has a sin nature from birth, and yet at the same time he is responsible for his sins (when he comes to an age that he realizes that).
There is only one way to heaven; one way for forgiveness of sins, and that is through Christ.

I agree, but it brings up the question, what happens to infants that die? Is there any way we can know?

If we are born separated from God, how do infants get to heaven?

 

[The Biblicist]

I am not trying to start a debate with DHK or anyone else on this issue but because DHK and others call me a Calvinist, let me make plain what I do and don't believe in regard to the definition of Calvinism provided by DHK.

Here is what I believe. I will try to differentiate my beliefs from what I have learned from the debates on the Baptist Theology forum where Calvinism is a favorite topic for discussion/debate.

I believe that a man has a sin nature from birth, and yet at the same time he is responsible for his sins (when he comes to an age that he realizes that).
There is only one way to heaven; one way for forgiveness of sins, and that is through Christ.
When one recognizes his sinfulness, he must come through Christ to obtain salvation. There is no other way.
I believe that "Whosoever shall call upon the name shall be saved."
When presented with the gospel man has a choice whether to believe or not to believe.
What is essential is the Word of God--the gospel, and the Holy Spirit. But the part of the Holy Spirit is simply that of convicting the sinner of sin. Salvation is by faith. One must call upon Christ by faith; trust him as Savior.

Well, I agree with all the above.

The Calvinist believes that all of this is foreordained before the foundation of the world,

Yes, that is right

and man doesn't have a choice in the matter.

Well, if that is so, then I am not a Calvinist because I don't beleive that. I believe that man's free choice is no different before the fall than after the fall. I don't believe the problem is the will but with the heart.

He believes that regeneration must precede salvation, and it could be up to days--an indefinite period of time.

If that is a Calvinist then I am not one, because I dont' believe that! I believe that regeneration and gospel conversion are simeltaneous with only a logical order where regeneration precedes conversion or the divine side precedes the human side. In the prophets words "Turn us and we shall be turned." God does the turning (regeneration) but the person is turning (conversion).

He believes that the faith to believe the gospel is a gift from God (which the Bible does not teach).

The bible most certainly does teach that faith in Christ is a gift of God and of grace (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 4:16; Acts 13:48).

Thus he explains it this way:
The Holy Spirit in some inexplicable, undefinable way (that not even the Calvinist can explain) regenerates the elect.
At that point God gives him the faith that enables him to believe the gospel.
Then he can call upon the name of the Lord. Then he can be saved.

If that is the explanation of a Calvinist then I am not one! The preaching of the gospel when it is empowered by the Holy Spirit speaks into existence a new creature exactly as God spoke light into existence in Genesis 1:3 and that is how Paul explains it in 2 Cor. 4:6 - that is the effectual call in contrast to the gospel coming in word only (1 Thes. 1:5).

Salvation to them is a process.

If that is Calvinism then I am not a Calvinist because I do not believe it is a process but regeneration and conversion are as inseperable as repentance and faith but according to a clear logical order.

Faith is inherent in the believer. God has given faith from birth--the ability to believe. It is not a special gift. He does not give spiritual gifts to the unsaved, if it be considered one.

"some have not faith" - 2 Thes. 3:3

He does not elect some to heaven and some to hell.

If that is Calvinism then I am not one. Election is always unto salvation and never unto hell.

I am not trying to enter into a debate with DHK. I am simply distinguishing what he calls Calvinism from what I believe because he calls me a Calvinist.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
I would fully agree that a man is not a sinner until he sins, but could not his nature from birth natural to Him as a being born a human, with the clear natural propensities via depraved sensibilities, be rightfully called a 'sin nature?'

Jerry: I do not think so. I believe that man was created in a state described as "good" and he has a "will" that is free so there is nothing that compels him to sin.

HP: Man in his originally created state was indeed good, and declared so by God. Man was created with perfect natural propensities. Sin, via Gods condemnation, clearly corrupted the physical propensities. One only have to go into a children's ward to see the direct results of sin upon the human flesh. Humans subsequent to the fall have unnatural tendencies or propensities, being born physically depraved form the original state Adam enjoyed at his entrance into this world. Such depraved physical propensities serve as formidable influences to selfishness but cannot coerce owns will unless such a one has no capacity for moral agency. We would pity such an infant in that condition but certainly not blame it for coercion beyond its control even as it develops if in fact it cannot do anything other than to follow the impulses of its propensities due to the utter depravity of the physical propensities.

Even in the best state, infants still suffer under depraved sensibilities. If in fact they are going to mature into moral beings, the influence wielded by the depraved sensibilities can indeed be resisted and it is not of such degree that it simply coerces and forces the direction of the intents of the will. If morality is to be predicated of the individual at any point, one must indeed have the possibility of contrary choice and the requisite abilities to do something other than what it does under the very same set of circumstances.

Have I made myself clear so far or simply confused you more?

 

[convicted1]

Adam was created from the ground but none of his posterity come into existence from the ground but instead are concevied in the womb of a mother not the ground! So what basis has the idea of "pre-cursed" versus "cursed" ground have anything to do with my body or your body?

I have no clue what you are trying to convey here Brother.

Our body does not come from the ground whether viewed as pre-cursed or cursed! So your whole rational basis is wrong.

Our body doesn't come from the ground? Really? Wow. So much for this verse then, huh?


Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


The dust is our bodies that came from the ground, and the spirit is our soul.

And how about these?

2 Cor. 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.


Right here, the "earthen vessel" is our physical body. The soul is inside of this body, and the Spirit dwells inside the soul, therefore making it the Treasure in earthen vessels.

So does God breathe life into every animal, ant, plant and living thing on planet earth when they are in the womb, egg or seed?

So the command to reproduce after your own kind really means reproduce lifeless forms after their own kind??

Never said this, you just added words to my post....a major no no. Look, God gave life to Adam by breathing into his nostrils the breath of life, and he became a living soul. God is Who gives life, not man. The physical body is formed by the union of sperm-egg, but God imparts life to that physical body.

Where do you get the idea that your body came from the ground?

It's called the Holy bible. When I was in college, I took animal biology. In it, there were some scientists who did some searching, and found trace elements of clay in the human body. Wow, imagine that.

You are not making sense here! Adam did eventually die physically just like we eventually die physically - no difference except what age people die which always varies.

Well, God told Adam that when/if he ate of that tree he would die. Now, correct he died spiritually. It was his sin that caused his seperation from God Almighty. It is our sin that seperates us from God. You have us dead from conception. If we are conceived dead, then we are guilty of someone else's sin. The bible does not support this. It says that your sins/iniquities have seperated you from God. If we are conceived dead/seperated, then what did we do to bring about this seperation?

I see you are attempting to make spiritual death due to personal sins but physical death due to originating from the "ground" instead of from Adam by reproduction.

Look, the remedy for sin is for the soul only. No matter how close we live to God, we will die the physical death. The stain of sin is still in the flesh, because the blood only cleanses the soul and not the body. God's wrath is upon the flesh due to it being still "at odds", but the soul is clothed in Jesus' righteousness via His shed blood having cleansed it from all unrighteousness.

So you believe that every human is directly created by God just as Adam was?? So much for "reproduce after your own kind"!!!! According to this line of logic humans and animals, plants and herbs merely reproduce lifeless dead material matter instead of living beings and plants. Hence, no seed has life in it by virture of being a seed but must be infused with life by God,, etc.

Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.


Well, God stated here that He formed Jeremiah in his mother's belly.





Here is another one to support me in Job:

Job 10:8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.

9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?



Dust again. If Job didn't come from the dust, he couldn't go to the dust again.
Plus, this also shows that God formed Job.

This does not explain HUMAN NATURE in regard to the soul within infants who very soon after birth express attitudes, words and actions that cannot be attributed to the fruit of the Spirit or to training or to rational willful decisions but are clearly what the Bible defines as fruit of the flesh!

Infants sin at an early age, is correct. But, do they realize they transgressed God's Laws? When I was little, if I did something wrong, I was afraid of mom and dad, and was afraid of them swatting my butt. I did not have the knowledge to know that I was transgressing God's Laws. Major difference. And God does not hold little children/infants/new born babies accountable of these because of their lack of understanding. Here are some scriptures to support this:

Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.


Listen Brother, I have truly enjoyed this and it has caused me to think and study hard, and that is always good. If I have said anything out of line, please forgive me. I am bowing out of this for the time being. I know that we will just go around in circles, and will never come to a concensus on this. I pray that God blesses you and your whole family through this CHRISTmas Holyday. Take care, may God bless, and I love you!!

i am I AM'S!!

Willis

 

[The Biblicist]

Our body doesn't come from the ground? Really? Wow. So much for this verse then, huh?


Ecc. 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The writer is referring to the original source of man in the garden of Eden when God created Adam from the dust of the earth from pre-cursed soil.

No human being from that point forward has ever been taken from the ground and formed but we all humans now come by way of reproduction after thier own kind from the womb of their mothers.

So as to the original source in this reproductive cycle man comes from the pre-cursed ground but no man after Adam was ever formed from the dust of the cursed ground because no man after Adam comes from the ground at all!

We are "earthen" vessels in regard to our Genesis origin with Adam and from pre-cursed soil.

God is Who gives life, not man. The physical body is formed by the union of sperm-egg, but God imparts life to that physical body.

God already implanted life in the seed at the beginning of the reproductive cycle of plants, animals and man - life begets life by divine design. Life is already in the seed but union between seed and egg is God's immediate control over the process of life begetting life - a process begun by God and called "after its own kind."

It's called the Holy bible. When I was in college, I took animal biology. In it, there were some scientists who did some searching, and found trace elements of clay in the human body. Wow, imagine that.

You are confusing ORIGINAL SOURCE of the body with Adam from pre-cursed clay with individual source which is "after its own kind" through generation.

Well, God told Adam that when/if he ate of that tree he would die. Now, correct he died spiritually. It was his sin that caused his seperation from God Almighty. It is our sin that seperates us from God. You have us dead from conception. If we are conceived dead, then we are guilty of someone else's sin. The bible does not support this. It says that your sins/iniquities have seperated you from God. If we are conceived dead/seperated, then what did we do to bring about this seperation?

Just as you are confused about the original source of the human body from the one time event of formation from clay but then reproduction of like kind or life begetting life, you are also confused about original sin wherein Adam the whole human nature consisted "in Adam" and acted with Adam so that when he sinned all have sinned. The absolute proof is that infants suffer the condemnation of sin and that would be unjust since they did not individually commit sin or violate any law EXCEPT in Adam "IN Adam all die" (1 Cor. 15:22).

Look, the remedy for sin is for the soul only. No matter how close we live to God, we will die the physical death. The stain of sin is still in the flesh, because the blood only cleanses the soul and not the body. God's wrath is upon the flesh due to it being still "at odds", but the soul is clothed in Jesus' righteousness via His shed blood having cleansed it from all unrighteousness.

Wrong! Just as there a time for salvation of the soul, there is a time for salvation of the body. Both will be redeemed from death and both were under the reign of death and the body is for the present under the reign of death. Salvation is a process in regard to its entirety.

Jeremiah 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.


Well, God stated here that He formed Jeremiah in his mother's belly.

Death is at work in this world. Infants die in their mother's womb. Those who do not, are preserved by God. The whole reproductive processs "after its own kind" was God's design and God determines whether we live or die and at what time we live or die and thus God designed the process and oversees it according to His eternal purpose in Christ Jesus.

Hence, God worked through his own ordained process of life begetting life and preserved jeremiah in the womb to carry out His own purpose according to election in Christ.

Here is another one to support me in Job:

Job 10:8 Thine hands have made me and fashioned me together round about; yet thou dost destroy me.

9 Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?



Dust again. If Job didn't come from the dust, he couldn't go to the dust again.
Plus, this also shows that God formed Job.

The human body which had its original source with pre-cursed clay in Adam always returns to dust but no other human body originates with clay but originates "after its own kind" through generation.

Infants sin at an early age, is correct. But, do they realize they transgressed God's Laws?

That is both proof and admission of a sinful nature given through birth regardless if you are held responsible for it or not!

Here are some scriptures to support this:

Psalm 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

These texts have nothing to do with infants in regard to their context or application. Christ redeems dying infants exactly as Adam cursed them - without their individual choice. Where sin abounded in Adam grace does much more abound in Christ.

Listen Brother, I have truly enjoyed this and it has caused me to think and study hard, and that is always good. If I have said anything out of line, please forgive me. I am bowing out of this for the time being. I know that we will just go around in circles, and will never come to a concensus on this. I pray that God blesses you and your whole family through this CHRISTmas Holyday. Take care, may God bless, and I love you!!

i am I AM'S!!

Willis

You are a fine fella and I have enjoyed our discussion also. I hope you will consider my responses and perhaps some time in the future we can pick it back up. Happy holidays!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Absolutely. Look at the context. He took upon himself human nature. It was the same nature as Abraham (vs.16).

Yes, but according to you not only Abrahm but his seed possess a sin nature. And you affirmed that the "brothers in the following verse have a sin nature:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

If you are right then we must believe that the Lord Jesus was made with a sin nature since He was made like them IN EVERY WAY.

But we both know that that is not possible so in order to try to cover your blunder you say:

He is not identifying with our sin nature.

All you are doing is denying the statement that He was made like His brothers IN EVERY WAY!

According to you He was made like His brothers in only some ways because His very nature was different than his brothers' nature!

When Paul preached he "reasoned out of the Scriptures":

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures" (Acts 17:2).

You throw your reason to the wind and say that He was made like us in every way but at the same time He has an entirely different nature than we do!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your explanations are quite confusing.

Nothing which I said is confusing to someone with an open mind. I will go through this again.

Our "physical" death was due to the sin of Adam because as a result of his sin man was denied the very thing which was provided to keep the mortal body living:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

There is nothing confusuing about that. If I am wrong then tell me exactly what I said that is wrong. in regard to "spiritual" death, Paul says that spiritual death comes as a result of a man's own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

That is not complicated and I cannot see how it could possibly be confusing.

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes, but according to you not only Abrahm but his seed possess a sin nature. And you affirmed that the "brothers in the following verse have a sin nature:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

If you are right then we must believe that the Lord Jesus was made with a sin nature since He was made like them IN EVERY WAY.

You give solid proof that you have absolutely no objectivity in this discussion whatsoever!

When DHK and I deal with your position, we at least deal with it objectively! We consider your position in our arguments and conclusions. However, you refuse to even consider the options we bring to the table but draw your conclusion based upon pure blind dogma!

This is your logical conclusion because YOU REFUSE to even recognize another alternative due to virigin birth! hence, you pretend there is no other option because you refuse to beleive it! So you conclusion is not objective because you refuse to even consider objectively any other option.

When a person reasons like you do, there is no possible basis for discussion as you have already eliminated any and all objectivity and this post proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

However, you have no objectivity whatsoever but pure blind dogma!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I would fully agree that a man is not a sinner until he sins, but could not his nature from birth natural to Him as a being born a human, with the clear natural propensities via depraved sensibilities, be rightfully called a 'sin nature?'

I do not think so. I believe that man was created in a state described as "good" and he has a "will" that is free so there is nothing that compels him to sin.

All human babies have a human nature, do they not? Certainly God does not impute sin for any such nature, but it is clear that via the depraved physical propensities we are born with subsequent to the fall, that there is a clear tendency to selfishness which when yielded to subsequent to moral agency is indeed sin and as such judged justly as being blameworthy.

I would say that a man has an knowledge of what is right and wrong (the conscience) and he is also given a free will that enables him to always do the right thing. So I really do not know what you are referring to when you speak of "depraved physical propensities" which we are born with.

Are you saying that these depraved physical propensities compel us to sin? Could you please go into more details about these propensities?

Thanks!

That is why I believe Christ was created in like manner to man just as Scripture states. His possessed the same natural depraved natural propensities as we do at birth, for he was indeed a human with a human body subject to physical depravity as are all humans subsequent to the fall.

I believe that He was made just like we are and he too possessed a "free will." He made choices throughout His life and He always yielded His will to the Father's will. On the eve of the Cross He made the following prayer to the Father:

"Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done" (Lk.22:42).

 

[The Biblicist]

Nothing which I said is confusing to someone with an open mind. I will go through this again.

Our "physical" death was due to the sin of Adam because as a result of his sin man was denied the very thing which was provided to keep the mortal body living:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

There is nothing confusuing about that. If I am wrong then tell me exactly what I said that is wrong. in regard to "spiritual" death, Paul says that spiritual death comes as a result of a man's own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

That is not complicated and I cannot see how it could possibly be confusing.

Please answer the questions I gave in the post you quoted me.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When DHK and I deal with your position, we at least deal with it objectively!

All you do is to deny that He was made like us in every way!

You pretend that you believe the Scriptures but every time you must chose between what the Bible teaches and what Calvinism teach you chose the teaching of Calvinism every single time!