Born in Sins

[The Biblicist]

Please answer the questions I gave in the post you quoted me.

1. Did Adam die spiritually in the time frame of the day he committed his offence against God as revealed in Genesis 2:16? Yes or No

2. If yes, is Adam's spiritual death attributed to his own personal sin?

3. If yes, is Adam's physical death attributed to his own personal sin?

4. If no, is Adam's physical death attributed to being cut off from the tree of life?

5. Is the physical death of infants attributed to their own personal sin?

6. Is the physical death of infants attributed to the sin of Adam?

7. Is the physical death of infants attributed to being cut off from the tree of life?

8. Is death "passed" upon all men purely by following the wrong example of Adam in committing personal sin against God?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Please answer the questions I gave in the post you quoted me.

Your questions are all answered by what I said in my post. Either you can deal with that or you cannot.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Your explanations are quite confusing.

Nothing which I said is confusing to someone with an open mind. I will go through this again.

Our "physical" death was due to the sin of Adam because as a result of his sin man was denied the very thing which was provided to keep the mortal body living:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).

There is nothing confusuing about that. If I am wrong then tell me exactly what I said that is wrong. in regard to "spiritual" death, Paul says that spiritual death comes as a result of a man's own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

That is not complicated and I cannot see how it could possibly be confusing.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Christ was born with the same physically depraved body and natural propensities all men are born with. He was made like unto His brethren in every way. "IN A SENSE", this physical depravity of the sensibilities could be rightfully termed, a proclivity to sin or even a 'sinful nature.' Bear in mind that when I say a sinful nature, I am NOT saying Christ had sin, for there is a clear distinction between being born with a proclivity to sin, or a nature that provides great temptation to sin which serves as an influence to or a temptation to sin, and NOT sin itself. A 'sinful nature' as I have described it is again NOT sin in and of itself. It is merely the physical depravity in all humans subsequent to and as a result of the fall of man. Such a nature serves as a formidable influence to sin but is not sin until as James clearly points out, the will of man makes a choice to form intents with such depraved influences.

Such a depraved nature is indeed a primary source of all temptation. Scripture is clear that Christ was "tempted in ALL points as we are, yet without sin." If Christ was not born with a depraved physical propensities, such a clear statement as Scripture makes concerning the temptations of Christ being in 'every way' like His brethren, He simply could not have been tempted as we are.

Being born with a proclivity to sin, or even 'a sinful nature' in the sense I described, does NOT necessitate sin in anyone, especially Christ. Depraved sensibilities, again, serve only as a formidable influence to sin, and does NOT necessitate sin itself.

 

[The Biblicist]

All you do is to deny that He was made like us in every way!

You pretend that you believe the Scriptures but every time you must chose between what the Bible teaches and what Calvinism teach you chose the teaching of Calvinism every single time!

We at least include your interpretation as an option for consideration. Indeed, our responses are based upon that very option!

However, you do not even include our interpretation as an option for consideration. Your arguments are based upon completely ignoring that option. You argue as though no other alternative option even exists. That is how closed minded you are - no objectivity.

Just look at the conclusion you drew in the post that I began this comment with?

You will not even consider the virgin birth as a possible option that may prove your intepretation is incorrect!

You reveal no reasonableness in your interpretation of Hebrews 2:17 but insist upon absolute drastic applicatons that even common sense would reject. DHK has pointed out the common sense application problems with your absolute interpretative theory. You simply are closed minded and blinded by dogma regardless of contrary evidence even though the evidence is common sense and obvious.

 

[The Biblicist]

Christ was born with the same physically depraved body and natural propensities all men are born with. He was made like unto His brethren in every way. "IN A SENSE", this physical depravity of the sensibilities could be rightfully termed, a proclivity to sin or even a 'sinful nature.' ]

You also, are driven by blind dogma without any objectivity! You won't even consider the virigin birth as a viable alternative option that contradicts your conclusions!

Just common sense would dictate to any rational and reasonable person that Christ was not "made" like his "brethren" in every detail.

We are "made" in the womb but Christ was not "made" in the womb like his brethren in every detail.

His brethren were "made" out of an earthly father's sperm joined with a mother's egg in the womb. Jesus was not made that way. He was concieved without the "seed" of a physical "father" but directly by the Holy Spirit.

Hence, it is a lie to say Christ was made like his brethren in every way!

It is this very DIFFERENCE that divides our interpretations and for you to deny that difference, ignore that differnce, demonstrates blind dogma, no objectivity whatsoever.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Christ was born with the same physically depraved body and natural propensities all men are born with. He was made like unto His brethren in every way. "IN A SENSE", this physical depravity of the sensibilities could be rightfully termed, a proclivity to sin or even a 'sinful nature.'

The word "proclivity" means "natural or habitual inclination or tendency."

I do not believe that Christ possessed a "natural" tendency to sin and certainly not a "habitual" tendency to sin.

Scripture is clear that Christ was "tempted in ALL points as we are, yet without sin." If Christ was not born with a depraved physical propensities, such a clear statement as Scripture makes concerning the temptations of Christ being in 'every way' like His brethren, He simply could not have been tempted as we are.

Look at how Christ was tempted in the wilderness by Satan (Mt.4:11) and nothing about those temptations had anything at all to do with any so-called "depraved physical propensities" in Him.

Depraved sensibilities, again, serve only as a formidable influence to sin, and does NOT necessitate sin itself.

The word "depraved" means "corrupt or perverted, esp. morally; wicked."

I do not believe that a man, much less jesus Christ, is born with corrupt or perverted sensibilities.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We at least include your interpretation as an option for consideration. Indeed, our responses are based upon that very option!

However, you do not even include our interpretation as an option for consideration.

Why should I since your interpretation is a denial of what is said here:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

 

[The Biblicist]

The word "proclivity" means "natural or habitual inclination or tendency."

I do not believe that Christ possessed a "natural" tendency to sin and certainly not a "habitual" tendency to sin.

If you believe that Christ was "made" like unto his brethren in every detail then that is precisely what you believe because it is self-evident in all infants. They need no instruction, no training, no example to express evil attitudes, words or actions. PARENTS MUST RESTRAIN THIS PROPENCITY TO EVIL.

If your theory were correct infants would not have to be trained, disciplined to express the fruits of the Spirit but they would have a "proclivity" and natural inclination to be good, godly, and righteous!! BUT THEY CLEARLY ARE NOT INCLINED THAT WAY!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

It's OK Jerry. I believe in time you will see differently on the issue of depraved sensibilities. :thumbs:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

We are "made" in the womb but Christ was not "made" in the womb like his brethren in every detail.

His brethren were "made" out of an earthly father's sperm joined with a mother's egg in the womb. Jesus was not made that way. He was concieved without the "seed" of a physical "father" but directly by the Holy Spirit.

Hence, it is a lie to say Christ was made like his brethren in every way!

The Greek word translated "to be made like" is not speaking of how anyone is conceived. Instead, it means "to make like: 'to be' or 'to become like' to one...Heb.ii. 17" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The Lord Jesus became like His brothers in every way:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

It is a lie to say that He became like His brothers in only some ways.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Greek word translated "to be made like" is not speaking of how anyone is conceived. Instead, it means "to make like: 'to be' or 'to become like' to one...Heb.ii. 17" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Either Christ was "made like" his brethen IN BIRTH or AFTER birth? Which is it? You cannot have your cake and eat it too!

No lexicon says that this word cannot be applied to birth! Isn't your whole theory dependent upon such likeness IN BIRTH? If not then WHEN? When are brethren "made"? Inside the womb or outside the womb?

 

[DHK]

Yes, but according to you not only Abrahm but his seed possess a sin nature. And you affirmed that the "brothers in the following verse have a sin nature:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

Yes, Abraham, you and I, and all mankind have sin natures. We inherited them from Adam.

If you are right then we must believe that the Lord Jesus was made with a sin nature since He was made like them IN EVERY WAY.

That is your fallacious interpretation. It is not what Jesus meant. If that is what Jesus meant, then you should have been born of a virgin. Were you born of a virgin Jerry, that Christ could have been made like you in every way?
I leave you with that one question.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That is your fallacious interpretation. It is not what Jesus meant. If that is what Jesus meant, then you should have been born of a virgin. Were you born of a virgin Jerry, that Christ could have been made like you in every way?
I leave you with that one question.

Of course I have answered that before and when I did you said nothing. I will repeat what I said in the hope that you will actually respond:

The Greek word translated "to be made like" is not speaking of how anyone is conceived. Instead, it means "to make like: 'to be' or 'to become like' to one...Heb.ii. 17" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The Lord Jesus became like His brothers in every way:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

 

[The Biblicist]

Either Christ was "made like" his brethen IN BIRTH or AFTER birth? Which is it? You cannot have your cake and eat it too!

No lexicon says that this word cannot be applied to birth! Isn't your whole theory dependent upon such likeness IN BIRTH? If not then WHEN? When are brethren "made"? Inside the womb or outside the womb?

Your interpretation of Hebrews 2:17 not only ignores the virgin birth of Christ but totally invalidates any practical purpose for it!

According to your theory Joseph could have been used as the father of Jesus and the Divine Word could have simply taken up residence when Jesus was conceived or while in the womb.

 

[DHK]

Of course I have answered that before and when I did you said nothing. I will repeat what I said in the hope that you will actually respond:

The Greek word translated "to be made like" is not speaking of how anyone is conceived. Instead, it means "to make like: 'to be' or 'to become like' to one...Heb.ii. 17" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The Lord Jesus became like His brothers in every way:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

Alright then, the implication of the literalness of your view of Scripture excludes all mankind except for the Jews. He came to die for the Jewish race only for he was born of the Jews. His hair color, eye color, skin color, nose formation, etc. was all Jewish in traits and characteristics. In no way did he look like you. "Like his brothers in every way," could only refer to Jewish people," not you. You do not look like a Jew. Therefore Christ did not die for you. That is the only conclusion one can come to, if you take this verse to the extreme literal conclusion as you do.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Either Christ was "made like" his brethen IN BIRTH or AFTER birth? Which is it? You cannot have your cake and eat it too!

No lexicon says that this word cannot be applied to birth!

I did not say that the word does not refer to what happened at birth. What I said instead that the word is not in reference to the way that anyone is conceived at birth.

Isn't your whole theory dependent upon such likeness IN BIRTH? If not then WHEN? When are brethren "made"? Inside the womb or outside the womb?

What are your credentials in the Greek language? Do you think that you know more that the recognized reek expert Joseph Henry Thayer, whose definition of the Greek word translated "to be made like" is "to make like: 'to be' or 'to become like' to one...Heb.ii. 17" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

That has nothing at all to do with how a person is conceived.

 

[The Biblicist]

Of course I have answered that before and when I did you said nothing. I will repeat what I said in the hope that you will actually respond:

The Greek word translated "to be made like" is not speaking of how anyone is conceived. Instead, it means "to make like: 'to be' or 'to become like' to one...Heb.ii. 17" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The Lord Jesus became like His brothers in every way:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

Again, when and where was Christ "made" like his brethren in every way? In the womb or outside the womb?

Again, there is not Greek Lexicon that denies this term can be applied to the womb!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Alright then, the implication of the literalness of your view of Scripture excludes all mankind except for the Jews. He came to die for the Jewish race only for he was born of the Jews.

So e only came to die for the Jews":

"I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world"</I> (Jn.6:51).

His hair color, eye color, skin color, nose formation, etc. was all Jewish in traits and characteristics. In no way did he look like you. "Like his brothers in every way," could only refer to Jewish people," not you. You do not look like a Jew. Therefore Christ did not die for you. That is the only conclusion one can come to, if you take this verse to the extreme literal conclusion as you do.

Here Paul speaks of bodies in a sense of something which we are "clothed" with:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked" (2 Cor.5:1-3).

The Scriptures do not say that his body is made like us in every way. You are just looking for things to try to defend your belief that the lord esus was not made like us in every way:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Again, when and where was Christ "made" like his brethren in every way? In the womb or outside the womb?

Again, there is not Greek Lexicon that denies this term can be applied to the womb!

Please read what I said again. I said that the verse is not referring to "how" anyone is conceived.

The subject is not how" He was conceived but the fact that He took on the likeness of men in every way. Again, the Greek word translated "to be made like" is not speaking of how anyone is conceived. Instead, it means "to make like: 'to be' or 'to become like' to one...Heb.ii. 17" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

That happened when He was made a little lower than the angels:

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone" (Heb.2:9).