OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is a thought!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Romans 16:20 is a Strong Proof of Christ's 70 AD Return
- Thread starter Logos1
- Start date
That is a thought!
Is that a yes or a no or a dodge?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Neither! I am just suggesting to you as the Apostle Paul told Timothy:
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Finally got a minute for this Hank
Hank here is an answer to your question from post 52. Good questions.
1. Does this mean the Lord will return in literal physical form? No it is a reference to coming in the clouds with power and glory.
Glory as used in the Old Testament was a revealing of God’s presence to man. Remember the Glory Cloud for instance. People recognized the Lord’s presence was in an event just as glory often was used to describe God’s presence on the mountain for instance when dealing with Moses and around the temple with Aaron as well. Remember Isaiah 19:1 where God wrote a swift cloud, but no one actually saw the clouds roll back and God appearing in the sky. It’s people today who take this literally not the first century audience.
2. With a shout—does this mean a literal, audible shout will boom down from heaven. This is again understood by looking at similar verses in the OT. The real focus here should be on Trump
Isaiah 27:13
(ESV)
13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD on the holy mountain at Jerusalem.
Notice the use of trumpet here—no one hears a literal trumpet it is symbolic of restoration of Israel when they return from exile. The restoration of Israel (and the gentiles too) back into the presence of God (victory over sin death) is the imagery used to put it in terms the audience would understand—a return from man’s exile from God’s presence back to Him.
The archangel is a reference to Christ not an angel. See references to Michael in Daniel.
3. The dead who have accepted Christ (who are in Sheol) whatever holding tank one’s goes to before the atoning work of Christ. They are reconciled back into God’s presence.
4. Meet Him in the air—be reconciled to him in the spiritual realm where God resides. Exactly what point would there be in flying into the sky to float in the sky with Him. That is cartoonish.
Well that is kind of rushing through it (I probably could have worded it better), but I had to put it off several days and really wanted to give you an answer before the thread is closed.
(I can't let OR's best posts go to waste)
I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular
You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular
Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular
A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Hank here is an answer to your question from post 52. Good questions.
1. Does this mean the Lord will return in literal physical form? No it is a reference to coming in the clouds with power and glory.
Glory as used in the Old Testament was a revealing of God’s presence to man. Remember the Glory Cloud for instance. People recognized the Lord’s presence was in an event just as glory often was used to describe God’s presence on the mountain for instance when dealing with Moses and around the temple with Aaron as well. Remember Isaiah 19:1 where God wrote a swift cloud, but no one actually saw the clouds roll back and God appearing in the sky. It’s people today who take this literally not the first century audience.
2. With a shout—does this mean a literal, audible shout will boom down from heaven. This is again understood by looking at similar verses in the OT. The real focus here should be on Trump
Isaiah 27:13
(ESV)
13 And in that day a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD on the holy mountain at Jerusalem.
Notice the use of trumpet here—no one hears a literal trumpet it is symbolic of restoration of Israel when they return from exile. The restoration of Israel (and the gentiles too) back into the presence of God (victory over sin death) is the imagery used to put it in terms the audience would understand—a return from man’s exile from God’s presence back to Him.
The archangel is a reference to Christ not an angel. See references to Michael in Daniel.
3. The dead who have accepted Christ (who are in Sheol) whatever holding tank one’s goes to before the atoning work of Christ. They are reconciled back into God’s presence.
4. Meet Him in the air—be reconciled to him in the spiritual realm where God resides. Exactly what point would there be in flying into the sky to float in the sky with Him. That is cartoonish.
Well that is kind of rushing through it (I probably could have worded it better), but I had to put it off several days and really wanted to give you an answer before the thread is closed.
(I can't let OR's best posts go to waste)
I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular
You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular
Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular
A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Thanks for the response logos1. I'll rebut later. Right now my wife and I are chaperons on a retreat with our church teens.
No need to belittle yourself. In reality we agree in the fundamentals including the Second Coming, that is to say, that there is a second coming of Jesus Christ predicted in the NT. But concerning that point we disagree on the timing and details.
One very important detail is that futurists view the second coming as being globally visible with a bodily return which "every eye will see" and yet to come.
Basically I believe preterism goes overboard with re-assigning values or allegorization of what seems to be plain phrases in natural narratives in several places in the scripture to be taken at face value.
Ironically, this is what futurists are said to do (by preterists) with the phrase "shortly".
Admitedly there are problems in all futurists views, however they are relatively fewer by a long shot than preterist issues.
Thanks again
HankD
Last edited:
So your not going to give an answer? Is it because in answering you contradict your own view? You have been very free with answers up till now so I can only assume you cannot answer.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I am not contradicting myself because Scripture does not contradict itself.
Assume what you wish!
I am assuming that you are sufficiently mature to understand what the Apostle Paul meant!
I'll assume your directing that scripture at yourself and not me.
Last edited by a moderator:
Response to Logos1
Christ first appearance was literal and physical.
We are promised the same for His return.
Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
We are also told in a plain narrative that it will be visible and acknowledged even by the world:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
The NT has a better both literal and visible manifestation of His glory, The Incarnation:
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
On the contrary Israel did indeed hear the Trump of God:
Exodus 19
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
The purpose of meeting Him in the air is to remove His people from the final wrath of God upon the inhabited earth.
Noah and his family, Lot and His family are types of this “snatching away-harpazo” from God’s retribution.
We, NT believers will meet Him in the air, but our final destination, the hiding place for His children, is not revealed.
Many presume it to be heaven.
Psalm 91
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
Psalm 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Isaiah 26
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
HankD
Christ first appearance was literal and physical.
We are promised the same for His return.
Acts 1
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
We are also told in a plain narrative that it will be visible and acknowledged even by the world:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
The NT has a better both literal and visible manifestation of His glory, The Incarnation:
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
On the contrary Israel did indeed hear the Trump of God:
Exodus 19
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
The purpose of meeting Him in the air is to remove His people from the final wrath of God upon the inhabited earth.
Noah and his family, Lot and His family are types of this “snatching away-harpazo” from God’s retribution.
We, NT believers will meet Him in the air, but our final destination, the hiding place for His children, is not revealed.
Many presume it to be heaven.
Psalm 91
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
Psalm 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Isaiah 26
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
HankD
Well not actually now if you align your beliefs on that subject up with the bible. This merits a new thread. How fortuitous that this comes up on New Years which is a great analogy for what is happening. I'll answer in detail in a new thread