Born in Sins part2

[Jerry Shugart]

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Romans 2:7)
--The saved are those who do continue in well doing. They do seek for glory and honor and immortality. The do have eternal life. This is a description of the saved. This could never be descriptive of the unsaved.

You said nothing of the fact that this judgment is according to one's "deeds" or "works":

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds..."

That has nothing to do with obtaining eternal life by 'faith." And we can be sure that Paul is speaking of a man's "works" and not his deeds because later he says:

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).

Do you think that this verse is speaking about anyone receiving eternal life and a righteous standing before God as a result of 'faith"? Especially with the following verse in view:

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them" (Gal.3:11-12).

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (Romans 2:10)

Here we see that the reward comes to those who "worketh good" so Paul is not speaking about anyone receiving eternal life as a result of "faith."

In chapter three, Paul addresses both Jew and Gentile--the world, and their sinful condition--for their is none righteousness, no not one; there is none good, no not one.

In chapter three Paul is showing that no one obtains eternal life because of their deeds and not because they were born dead in sin:

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Ro.3:12).

There are none that are good and the reason is because there is none THAT DOETH GOOD!

That is not speaking of the condition of anyone at birth but instead about a person's "works" or "deeds."

All of this is so simple but it is all above your understanding because your mind is clouded by the false teachings of those who promote the idea of Original Sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: (Romans 2:10)


HP: Picture this. Frame one: Paul is shown standing repeating Romans 2:8 when he is attacked by one swinging a dead chicken beating him over the head screaming" You HERETIC! There is none good or that can do good!

2nd frame: Paul, as he ducks the blows says, "If you would just limit the 'none' to the likes of men like you, I would certainly believe it."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the jew first, and also to the gentile: (romans 2:10)


hp: Picture this. Frame one: Paul is shown standing repeating romans 2:8 when he is attacked by one swinging a dead chicken beating him over the head screaming" you heretic! There is none good or that can do good!

2nd frame: Paul, as he ducks the blows says, "if you would just limit the 'none' to the likes of men like you, i would certainly believe it."

Too funny!

 

[DHK]

You said nothing of the fact that this judgment is according to one's "deeds" or "works":

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds..."

That has nothing to do with obtaining eternal life by 'faith." And we can be sure that Paul is speaking of a man's "works" and not his deeds because later he says:

Read the first six verses. Are they talking about judgement or salvation? They are all about judgment. The very verse you quoted above is about judgment: "who will render to every man according to his deeds," (cf. Rev.20:12). At the Great White Throne Judgement God will judge according to their works just before he casts them all into the lake of fire! There is the context.

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified"

(Ro.2:13).

Do you think that this verse is speaking about anyone receiving eternal life and a righteous standing before God as a result of 'faith"? Especially with the following verse in view:

Paul is writing to the Jews, remember?
Context:
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Romans 2:17)
--In the OT their boast was in the law. They rested in the law of Moses. Following the law was their "salvation," though they found out that it, in reality could never save. It was their faith in God, faith in the sacrifices that they made, and that the High Priest made that would take away sin. All those typified the one great Sacrifice that Christ, in the future would make for them.
Evidence of being a true Jew was in keeping the law.
Evidence of being a true Christian was in keeping the commands of Christ.
Keeping the law does not make one a Christian, nor does it obtain eternal life.

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them"

(Gal.3:11-12).

Here we see that the reward comes to those who "worketh good" so Paul is not speaking about anyone receiving eternal life as a result of "faith."

What did you bold? "The law is not of faith."
What is written before that? The just shall live by faith.
What is written before that? No man is justified by the law in the sight of God.
Is that not clear enough? We are justified by faith.
We are not justified by the law.
The law is not of faith; it is impossible to be justified by the law.
The only thing that Paul is saying is that works comes as a result of the one who lives by faith. That is all.

In chapter three Paul is showing that no one obtains eternal life because of their deeds and not because they were born dead in sin:

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Ro.3:12).

There are none that are good and the reason is because there is none THAT DOETH GOOD!

That is not speaking of the condition of anyone at birth but instead about a person's "works" or "deeds."

All of this is so simple but it is all above your understanding because your mind is clouded by the false teachings of those who promote the idea of Original Sin.

You try to read into the Scripture your own ideas unsupported by the Scriptures. You can't support them. They are in contradiction to the Bible and the rest of orthodox Christianity. From the earliest of centuries this heresy was known as Pelagianism. It is not taught in the Bible but taught against in the Bible.

Jesus said:
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (Luke 19:10)
--In so doing he died for all "the world" which includes infants (part of the lost), meaning not innocent.

Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Timothy 1:15)
--Christ came to save sinners. Christ came to save the world. He made a propitiation for the sins of the world (1John 2:2). All in the world are sinners including infants.
Infants are sinners, children of wrath, as the Bible describes them in Ephesians 2:2,3.

This is not above my head. You have rejected the clear teaching of the Word of God and accepted the teaching of Pelagius, a heretic.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: You have rejected the clear teaching of the Word of God and accepted the teaching of Pelagius, a heretic.

HP: If Pelagius would not have been considered a heretic by the likes of Augustine and the puppet council he raised the third time around no less, Pelagius would have indeed been far from the truth.

When one calls another a heretic, check the source. :thumbs:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Read the first six verses. Are they talking about judgement or salvation? They are all about judgment. The very verse you quoted above is about judgment: "who will render to every man according to his deeds," (cf. Rev.20:12). At the Great White Throne Judgement God will judge according to their works just before he casts them all into the lake of fire! There is the context.

How can you say that since you said that the words "patient continuance in well doing" are referring to the saved?

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Romans 2:7)
--The saved are those who do continue in well doing. They do seek for glory and honor and immortality. The do have eternal life. This is a description of the saved. This could never be descriptive of the unsaved.

Again, this verse is not speaking of the saved because the saved become saved as a result of their 'faith" and not their "works."

You want it both ways!

You want the judgment spoken of by Paul as one where God "casts them ALL into the lake of fire" and then you say that this judgment is also in regard to the saved.

You are thoroughly confused.

 

[DHK]

HP: If Pelagius would not have been considered a heretic by the likes of Augustine and the puppet council he raised the third time around no less, Pelagius would have indeed been far from the truth.

When one calls another a heretic, check the source. :thumbs:

I am not a Calvinist, but recognize that Pelagianism is a heresy.
Catholics recognize that it is heretical.
So do Lutherans, Presbyterians, most Baptists, and most Protestant denominations. Both Original Sin and Depravity of Man has been taught from the apostles onward. Since you are the one believing in the heresy, you tell me which denominations you align yourself with? The Charismatics? Oneness? Mormons? Humanism?
You are outside of orthodox Christianity and have been in every century since the days of the apostles. So where does that leave you? In the arena of heresy.

 

[Moriah]

Read the first six verses. Are they talking about judgement or salvation? They are all about judgment. The very verse you quoted above is about judgment: "who will render to every man according to his deeds," (cf. Rev.20:12). At the Great White Throne Judgement God will judge according to their works just before he casts them all into the lake of fire! There is the context.

Paul is writing to the Jews, remember?
Context:
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Romans 2:17)
--In the OT their boast was in the law. They rested in the law of Moses. Following the law was their "salvation," though they found out that it, in reality could never save. It was their faith in God, faith in the sacrifices that they made, and that the High Priest made that would take away sin. All those typified the one great Sacrifice that Christ, in the future would make for them.
Evidence of being a true Jew was in keeping the law.
Evidence of being a true Christian was in keeping the commands of Christ.
Keeping the law does not make one a Christian, nor does it obtain eternal life.

What did you bold? "The law is not of faith."
What is written before that? The just shall live by faith.
What is written before that? No man is justified by the law in the sight of God.
Is that not clear enough? We are justified by faith.
We are not justified by the law.
The law is not of faith; it is impossible to be justified by the law.
The only thing that Paul is saying is that works comes as a result of the one who lives by faith. That is all.

You try to read into the Scripture your own ideas unsupported by the Scriptures. You can't support them. They are in contradiction to the Bible and the rest of orthodox Christianity. From the earliest of centuries this heresy was known as Pelagianism. It is not taught in the Bible but taught against in the Bible.

Jesus said:
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (Luke 19:10)
--In so doing he died for all "the world" which includes infants (part of the lost), meaning not innocent.

Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Timothy 1:15)
--Christ came to save sinners. Christ came to save the world. He made a propitiation for the sins of the world (1John 2:2). All in the world are sinners including infants.
Infants are sinners, children of wrath, as the Bible describes them in Ephesians 2:2,3.

This is not above my head. You have rejected the clear teaching of the Word of God and accepted the teaching of Pelagius, a heretic.

The lost sheep of Israel are those who loved God and wanted to obey, but could not stop sinning without the Savior and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. See Isaiah 64:5.

There is not one scripture in the Bible that says we cannot believe after learning of Jesus. In fact, the word of God says faith comes from hearing. See Romans 10:17.

The scriptures say we receive the Holy Spirit AFTER we believe and OBEY. See Acts 5:32.

On the Sabbath, it was UNLAWFUL to WORK. HOWEVER, Jesus tells us that it is LAWFUL to do good on the Sabbath and UNLAWFUL to do evil. See Luke 6:9.

Believing is the work God requires. See John 6:29.

Believing is like drinking water. See 1 Corinthians 12:13.


There is not one person in the Bible that Jesus saves and they did not want Him to save them, as those believe in total depravity teach. There is not one person in the Bible who hated God, yet God gives Him His Spirit, as those believing in total depravity claim.

We are saved by faith alone, faith in all of whom Jesus is and all that He says.

 

[DHK]

How can you say that since you said that the words "patient continuance in well doing" are referring to the saved?

Because the unsaved do not patiently continue in well doing (and don't stop there), seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.
--This is not characteristic of the unsaved. The unsaved does not seek after God.

Again, this verse is not speaking of the saved because the saved become saved as a result of their 'faith" and not their "works."

You want it both ways!

You want the judgment spoken of by Paul as one where God "casts them ALL into the lake of fire" and then you say that this judgment is also in regard to the saved.

You are thoroughly confused.

I am not confused.

Let me use a very simple version for you--the WEB:
There is a contrast here between the saved and the unsaved:

who "will pay back to everyone according to their works:"
--Everyone is involved. There are two judgments: one for saved, and one for unsaved.

For the saved:
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruptibility, eternal life;

For the unsaved:
but to those who are self-seeking, and don't obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath and indignation, oppression and anguish, on every soul of man who works evil, on the Jew first, and also on the Greek.

For the saved:
But glory and honor and peace to every man who works good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The reason:
For there is no partiality with God. (Romans 2:6-11)

The good works are the result of being saved or unsaved, never a requirement of salvation. The scene is either the Judgment Seat of Christ, or the Great White Throne Judgment. Whatever Judgment you will stand before you will be judged according to your works. At the former judgment you will be rewarded according to your works; in the latter judgment you will have simply treasured up wrath against the day of wrath.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Let me use a very simple version for you--the WEB:
There is a contrast here between the saved and the unsaved:

HP: How well the contrast is taught in so many circles. The difference taught in so many pulpits is that they are all still sinners. The only difference is that God is blind to the sins of some lucky ones.

 

[DHK]

HP: How well the contrast is taught in so many circles. The difference taught in so many pulpits is that they are all still sinners. The only difference is that God is blind to the sins of some lucky ones.

Calvinism may say that; but I don't teach that. I am not a Calvinist. You assume too much.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I am not confused.

Yes you are.

Paul is clearly stating what it is that brings either condemnation or eternal life, and it is a person's "deeds" or "works":

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-9).

The Greek word translated "render" means "to requite, recompense, in a good or bad sense...Ro. ii. 6" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So Paul is saying that the Lord will recompense every man according to his deeds. And that which is recompensed is either "tribulation and wrath" or "eternal life.'

Those who by patient continuance in well doing will be rewarded with eternal life.

You are so confused that you do not understand what Paul means when he says that God "will render to every man according to his deeds."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tell us DHK your teachings on how the sins of a believer affect ones eternal salvation, and how the sins of a believer affects ones standing before God.

 

[DHK]

Tell us DHK your teachings on how the sins of a believer affect ones eternal salvation, and how the sins of a believer affects ones standing before God.

The sin of rejecting Christ sends one to hell
That is all.
When one trusts Christ as Savior, all of his sins--past, present and future are forever forgiven.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

 

[DHK]

Yes you are.

Paul is clearly stating what it is that brings either condemnation or eternal life, and it is a person's "deeds" or "works":

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-9).

The Greek word translated "render" means "to requite, recompense, in a good or bad sense...Ro. ii. 6" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So Paul is saying that the Lord will recompense every man according to his deeds. And that which is recompensed is either "tribulation and wrath" or "eternal life.'

Those who by patient continuance in well doing will be rewarded with eternal life.

You are so confused that you do not understand what Paul means when he says that God "will render to every man according to his deeds."

There are two judgments being spoken of.
One for the redeemed; one for the unsaved.
God will reward eternal life to the redeemed.
God will reward eternal damnation to the unsaved.
When the saved stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ they will be rewarded according to their works.
When the unsaved stand before the White throne Judgement they will be judged according to their works. It is a message of judgment.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The sin of rejecting Christ sends one to hell
That is all.
When one trusts Christ as Savior, all of his sins--past, present and future are forever forgiven.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

HP: What was that comment about walking like a duck? There is not a Calvinist alive that could state the clear tenants of Calvinism on salvation differently or better than you have here. You nailed it. :thumbsup:

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: What was that comment about walking like a duck? There is not a Calvinist alive that could state the clear tenants of Calvinism on salvation differently or better than you have here. You nailed it. :thumbsup:

Everyone knows that DHK is not a Calvinist. DHK never quotes Calvin but simply quotes the scriptures.

When you cannot deal with the scriptures you just start name calling! That is the tactic of weak debaters who have no substance and so they stoop to name calling.

 

[DHK]

HP: What was that comment about walking like a duck? There is not a Calvinist alive that could state the clear tenants of Calvinism on salvation differently or better than you have here. You nailed it. :thumbsup:

My words that you referred to:

DHK: The sin of rejecting Christ sends one to hell
That is all.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

When one trusts Christ as Savior, all of his sins--past, present and future are forever forgiven.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." (Rom.8:1)

What did you say about Calvin?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There are two judgments being spoken of.

You just ignored what I said in regard to what Paul says in these verses about what "determines" the receiving of eternal life. Perhaps the following translation will help you understand what Paul is saying:

"who will render to each one according to his deeds: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath" (Ro.2:6-8).

The Lord will recompense each person according to his "deeds" or 'works." He will recompense "eternal life" to those who patiently continue in doing good.

This is not speaking about receiving eternal life by faith.

Besides that, the people spoken of here will not receive eternal life until after after a life of doing good works (theoretically speaking, of course) while Christians already possess it (1 Jn.5:11).

Also, these verses are speaking of a judgment that will take place on the same day (Ro.2:16). However, the "judgment seat of Christ" and the "Great White Throne judgment" happen at two different times.

 

[The Biblicist]

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-9).

You are so confused that you do not understand what Paul means when he says that God "will render to every man according to his deeds."

You are the one that is confused and completely ignorant of the preceding and following context and thus the immediate context of this statement.

Take note of the introduction - "the RIGHTEOUS judgment of God Who will render evry man according to his deeds."

This statement is said in response to what Paul has described in verses 1-5 as the hypocrit, who believes he is better than others, and beleives he will escape the judgement of God.

Verses 6-9 merely demonstrate ABSTRACTLY without application to anyone other than GENERIC Jews or Gentiles the principles of just judgment in order to prove that none will escape the judgement of God as defined and determined by the righteous standard of God's Law.

The Law requires continuance in well doing or as Paul says the same thing but in a negative form in Galatians 3:10 - Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

That is the righteous standard the Law demands to obtain "glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"

There is no suggestion that anyone will attain that by their works (v. 6) but rather Paul clearly sets forth the guidelines by which the Law demands in order to obtain it "according to....works" under the Law!