Born in Sins part2

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)

One is justified by faith and faith alone. That is the only way.
Christ is speaking to the nation of Israel here. He is speaking of Judgment. Their words will condemn them. This is judgment. Now look at verse 36 carefully. They shall give account of in the day of judgment. The day of judgment is coming. It will come. And on that day they will be judged according to what they have said.
This day of judgment no doubt, will be the Great White Throne Judgment. For Christ refers to these hypocrites as "vipers," not a choice word for believers. On that day he will judge them "according to their works as is indicated in Rev.20:12. Take what the Bible says in simple faith. Salvation is by grace through faith. (Eph.2:8), and it is not of works (verse 9).

 

The very same context as in Matthew 19:17-25 - hypocrits
The very same context as in Romans 2:1-28 - hypocrits
The very same context as in Luke 10 - hypocrits

Likewise here in Matthew 12 the preceding context refers to those who blasphemed the Holy Spirit and are identified as "being evil" (v. 24).

So, it is the judgment of the lost that is in view in all four cases as the saved "shall not come into condemnation" (Jn. 5:24).

 

What is faith? It seems that you don't know.
What is "dead" faith?
We all have faith. It is inherent in every man. Jesus taught that unless you have faith as a little child you cannot be saved. Children have faith. What is important is the object of the faith. Faith is confidence. The object of the faith of a child is the parent., The object of my faith (as per salvation) is Jesus Christ. He is the only one that can saved. Salvation comes only through him. Salvation is by faith in Christ and in Him alone. We are justified by faith.
The object of my faith is Christ and Christ alone.
If the object of your faith is in your works, you will not end up in heaven. Christ alone can save; not works.

I don't know about you HP, but if you believe there is only one judgment, the one described in Rev.20:11-15, I feel sorry for you. But I won't be there. God will not judge me on that day. I will not stand before God and be judged by Him. He has already judged me. My sins are forgiven: past, present and future. My sins are under the blood, never to be remembered again. I will not be at that judgment. God will never judge me according to my evil deeds; never. I stand eternal secure in his hand. Hallelujah!

I will not be at that judgment HP. If Christ is speaking to unsaved hypocritical Pharisees, and the judgment that they were going to face, I will not be there. If you believe you will be there, you should examine your faith--seriously.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." (Rom.8:1)

You need to provide Scripture for your statements. I won't be there. You can't demonstrate through Scripture that I will be, can you?

 

You said a lot here, and even after everything, it is still about God's people.

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

 

DHK,
Have you given up any sins since Jesus saved you? Have you changed at all? Do you turn your brother away if he comes to you hungry?
If you have given up sins, and if you have changed since Jesus saved you, and if you would feed your hungry brother who came to you for help, then why do you continue to speak against doing good as if it were wrong to teach this, the Word of God teaches this! If you had a Christian friend who was sinning, would you not try to talk to him about his sin, to help him stop sinning? The Bible says faith without deeds is dead, so why do you speak against anyone who repeats this?

 

Actually, not that much. However, enough was said to point out that this is a quotation showing that those that reject God's will suffer not only judgment, but it is called vengeance.

In this passage, it is taught by legalists and those who teach that salvation can be lost due to personal sin that the writer is saying that born again believers, if they sin, will receive this veangance and judgment.

The truth is, the people that receive this are not God's people, though under the law it was God's people receiving this in a temporal death, but this refers to those that have knowledge of Christ, and return to Levitical practice.

In this chapter, the primary focus being the sacrifices of the Levitical Economy.

That this is not speaking of born again believers losing salvation and receiving eternal judgment can easily be seen, even within the chapter itself, but a desire to bring man into ondage under the First Covenant again blinds the heart of some of recognizing such a simple statement of truth in scripture.

Consider:


Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


As under the law, man was not justified, much less receive eternal life, by the law. Why? Because man cannot fulfill the law, as his nature will not permit the perfection required. He must have the life and nature of God to do this.

Here, the drawing back is from...faith. What faith? Faith in the sacrifice of Christ.


39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


There is a belief to the saving of the soul. That is what keeps a man from drawing back and away from Christ. However, the wilfull sin of v.26 is not only a despising of Christ's sacrifice, but a return to the Levitical Economy.

It is just my opinion, but if Jews offered to sacrifice animals for sin, and allowed Gentiles to participate, many legalists would stand in line, just to "cover their bases." They would rationalize this action, even as they rationalize their diminutive view of the sacrifice of Christ by teaching works-based salvation, which helps insure that the dreadful sinners they are pointing their fingers at...don't fall away.

If you would like to look at Hebrews, or this chapter, let me know. There is a blessing to be found in Hebrews for those that are willing to set aside the teaching they have embraced, and expositionally explore this awesome book, called by some, the "Holy of Holies of the New Testament."

However, if you will not even consider what is said, that also will be evident. But, I want you to know, I do not look at it as "wasting my time on people like you," for this is why I am here: to talk to you.

God bless.

 

What exactly is your point? True born again persons ask forgiveness of sins daily and ask for grace to overcome them? So what is your point?

 

In the entire article granty says nothing specifically about the following verses:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" (Ro.2:5-7).

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).

How long did you have to search to find a commentary that failed to even address those two passages?

I did and the one from Dallas Theological Seminary supported my view while the one which you quoted did not even address the verses we are discussing.

Here is what David Guzik says:

"a. Will render to each one according to his deeds: This is an awesome and fearful thought, and it condemns the moralist as well as the obvious sinner.

b. Eternal life to those: If there was one who genuinely did good at all times, they could merit eternal life of their own accord - but there is none, because all, in some way or another are or have been or will be self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness."

http://www.blueletterbible.org/comm...ntID=7983&commInfo=31&topic=Romans&ar=Rom_2_7

So far I have provided two different commentaries and they both agree with my view. You have presented one which does not even discuss the verses which we are arguing about.

 

Darrel C,

You said: Actually, not that much. However, enough was said to point out that this is a quotation showing that those that reject God's will suffer not only judgment, but it is called vengeance.
In this passage, it is taught by legalists and those who teach that salvation can be lost due to personal sin that the writer is saying that born again believers, if they sin, will receive this veangance and judgment.

My reply: Stop saying “legalists.” The way you use that word, it is evident that you do not know the full meaning of it. A legalist ADDS to God’s Word. Obeying God is not called a legalist. LOL Doing everything God says is called being a man after God's own heart!

You said: The truth is, the people that receive this are not God's people, though under the law it was God's people receiving this in a temporal death, but this refers to those that have knowledge of Christ, and return to Levitical practice.

My reply: The scripture says God will judge His people. In addition, if they were believers of Christ then turned back to belief against Christ, how does that change what the scripture says! Only you want it to say something else.

You said: There is a belief to the saving of the soul. That is what keeps a man from drawing back and away from Christ. However, the wilfull sin of v.26 is not only a despising of Christ's sacrifice, but a return to the Levitical Economy.

My reply: It is so wrong for people like you who resist God’s word and do all they can to support manufactured doctrine.

You said: It is just my opinion, but if Jews offered to sacrifice animals for sin, and allowed Gentiles to participate, many legalists would stand in line, just to "cover their bases." They would rationalize this action, even as they rationalize their diminutive view of the sacrifice of Christ by teaching works-based salvation, which helps insure that the dreadful sinners they are pointing their fingers at...don't fall away.

My reply: Again, you do not know the meaning of legalist. Nor do you seem to understand what to fall back means, something Calvinsts claim could never happen anways.

You said: If you would like to look at Hebrews, or this chapter, let me know. There is a blessing to be found in Hebrews for those that are willing to set aside the teaching they have embraced, and expositionally explore this awesome book, called by some, the "Holy of Holies of the New Testament."

My reply: Calvinists, with their books upon books, to keep near them many Calvinist teachers for their itching ears. The only way I would read what that books says would be to correct all the errors.

You said: However, if you will not even consider what is said, that also will be evident. But, I want you to know, I do not look at it as "wasting my time on people like you," for this is why I am here: to talk to you.

My reply: You do not like my saying to you “people like you.” Why does that bother you so much? I would not be so bothered for you to tell me “people like you.” Stop playing so innocent and sweet here, you know you have been rude and insulting to me. People like you keep trying to be snide to people like me, you use it as a debate tactic to try to impress your friends.

 

Well, it is inevitable in the course of debate for ignorance to be revealed. The question is...who is ignorant.

I have commented on the verse in question, going through not just that verse, but the surrounding text. Re-examine your response: you will find nothing but what you think scripture teaches, nothing that could be called a serious treatment of the text at hand.

Concerning the term legalist, would it be preferred that I use the term Judaizer?

Not only that, they avoid what is in scripture.

If you seriously want to present a case that your commentary here has any validity, the proper course of action would be to take up the suggestion I gave, which is to look at the book of Hebrews itself.

It will show that not only is this particular verse not understood, but the chapter it is found in, and the book it has been found in...is not understood. But that is okay. That is understandable, because it is not, at first, a book easily understood.

I will again extend an offer to look at it with you. You will not, perhaps at first, want to hear what I have to say, but, if you look at it as it is written, I can assure you that there is a blessing in it for you that will absolutely change your life.

I do not mean that I have found some "hidden meaning" in scripture, but that by years of study, I have come to understand it...as it is written.

Again, look at your response to me: it is nothing but the words of a man...you. It is opinion, is is a reviling of me. But it does not examine scripture. Do you think that you will win people to Christ by giving them your word?

Judaizers believed they were obeying God, but they are convicted...their hearts were far from God, though they believed they did God service. All of us have to keep in mind the lesson that the law taught Israel, the ministry it performed in the redemptive plan of God, but...

We must go on to perfection.

This statement of Hebrews will, by one's understanding of it, will determine whether the heart is one of understanding, or if it is one of legalism.


Continued...

 

This is a step in the right direction.

And here it is evident that it is you...doing everything God says.

Self reliance, rather than the clear word of God:


Ezekiel 36

King James Version (KJV)

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


...go and learn what this meaneth.

Yes, under the First Covenant.

It contrasts the First with the New. His point, as already pointed out, is like this: "If they were judged under the First Covenant severely, how much more will those that reject Christ be judged."


You do not want to see this as a possibility because it deflates the very basis of your faith, which is one that exacts judgment upon those that are not as holy as you.

But the legalist, the Judaizer, as is clearly shown in scripture...is blind to his own sin.

And if it is pointed out to him, he will inevitably respond in anger, and, like the Pharisees...err because they do not know the scriptures.

Just is not in the text.

One cannot be perfected forever...and then turn back.

Created is contradiction for the benefit of teaching the traditions of man, which, by the way...is an ancient error.

I have given the reasons why I see it to mean what I have presented, cn you also set aside opinion and comment on the text directly?



Continued...

 

Exactly what "kind of people" am I?

Be careful how you answer, for your heart is already laid bare.

At some point, you will have to address scripture, not just give opinion and focus on terms that describe biblical concepts.

For your sake, I will stop using the term legalist, and use the term Judaizer.

Now, is there scripture you would like to discuss?

And this is why I state that Calvinism can contribute to a sound theology.

The Calvinist that understands that salvation is a one-time event is correct.

The Judaizer that seeks to bring man under bondage to the law through false humility is in error.

But, again, this is your opportunity to dispense with opinion and deal with the text.

You will think that Hebrews supports the false and Christ diminutive doctrine of loss of salvation but if you spend enough time in Hebrews...your basis of belief will vanish.

I say that with all hope and confidence, for your benefit, not that I might prove myself right, and you wrong. But to prove Christ, and the everlasting life which He gives to those that believe on His name.


Continued...

 

It does not surprise me that you do not get my point. You said true born again persons ask forgiveness of sins daily, I guess you do not overcome much sin if you have to keep asking for forgiveness for them daily. That is how it was when I was a Catholic, which is what Catholics do. Always feeling contrite for sins, but never really stopping any. This is what I want to know, why do people keep going against others for preaching obedience? We are only REPEATING God’s word!

 

But...you're not talking to a Calvinist.

You're not talking to one that reads Calvinist books.

You're talking to someone that 95% of the time relies only on his keyboard, Strong's concordance, and biblegateway.

You are forced to render arguments like this, truly this is all the entire response was, because an examination of scripture would expose a lack of understanding.

I am not trying to offend you, but I can tell you, should you pursue a discussion of Hebrews, if you are honest, you will have a life changing, eye-opening understanding that escapes most due to false doctrine and lack of expository diligence.

You have my word on that, whatever that is worth.

My responses to you are from my own personal study.

Who teaches you, Moriah?

You will correct the errors in Hebrews? lol...just kidding, I know what you mean, but, the depth of Hebrews is easily delved with an honest heart, apart from preconceived notions taught by tradition of men.

Doesn't bother me, as you might like it to. I merely pointed out how the abundance of the heart is exposed when we talk.

lol

Perhaps not, but you will be bothered by the Spirit of God when you actually study His word.

The word of God has always shown man his sin, and when people read the word of God and come away convinced of the opposite...

Perhaps...and that is my sin.

But at least I can admit that I do, at times, say things that are hurtful.

But lest you think that the offense is only from me, I would suggest that the offense of the Cross will enrage the Judaizer...more than anything.

Say of me what you will.

As far as my "friends," we are not called to make friends, we are called to make disciples.

For the Judaizer, a sound understanding of Hebrews is the best place to start, for most Judaizers can quote the commandments of the First Covenant, but fail to recognize that Hebrews is clear that the First Covenant could not make perfect, and that not only can the Cross make a believer perfect, it perfects the believer...forever.

Now your first thought will be perfection which the modern word will suggest, which is flawlessness.

However, when we read...



Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

We need only to look for the "therefore," that is, we need only back up:




Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


...Perfection means quite simply completion. The law can be seen to be incomplete, and fulfilled in Christ.

No more will one that is made complete in Christ through His offering have to offer up sacrifice, and that, Moriah, is the clear context of Hebrews 10.

Those that forsake the assembling of the brethren are not those who stop going to church, they are those that have come to the conclusion that the sacrifice of Christ, which is the primary topic of ch. 10, is not holy, but unholy.

This is why it is significant when the writer states that "there is no other sacrifice," because only Christ's sacrifice can complete, perfect...forever.

Those who return to the Levitical Economy show that they have rejected the ONE sacrifice that can save them from the judgment of God.

Spend some time in the book. Take your own advice...forego commentaries. Let God teach you.

 

It did, just not in the way you wanted it to. You want to ignore the gospel. You want to leave the gospel out. You seem to believe that you can make it to heaven without the gospel. If that is true, your religion is not better than that of Islam.

Before looking at the subpoint, post the point under which these subpoints are given:
3. (6-10) God will judge the moralist because their works also fall short of God’s perfect standard.
--This puts things in their context doesn't it? The passage is about judgment according to Guzik. Their works fall short of God's perfect standard. Their works cannot save.

--A persons works condemns. They do not merit eternal life. Works can only condemn. Why do you think this supports your theology? It doesn't. A person's works can only condemn them. What does he say: It condemns the moralist as well as the obvious sinner. So much for a man's works.

Read again. If there was one....BUT there is none. Because all...do not obey the truth. This totally discredits what you believe. There is none that keep the law or can keep the law. That is not what you believe. It is what I believe. How do you think this supports your case?

http://www.blueletterbible.org/comm...ntID=7983&commInfo=31&topic=Romans&ar=Rom_2_7

Guzik is the only one I have read. He may even be a Calvinist. I am sure that he doesn't support your case. He says the exact opposite of what you believe.

 

Who am I speaking against?
I know beyond any shadow of a doubt, that if I were to die this day I would go straight to heaven to be with the Lord. My sins are all forgiven. They are covered by the blood. My eternity is in God's hands, not mine.
Do you have that assurance?
If not, why not?

My assurance does not rest on an unconfessed sin. I don't have to wait for a priest to come and give me last rites. (I used to be a Catholic). I have no fear of those things now. Whether sin in unconfessed or not, I will still go to heaven.

I know whom I have believed and ma persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

It did not even mention those two verses in anyway except by quoting them.

I never said that and you know it. I have said many times that the possibility is true only in "theory."

I have said that over and over. Evidently you have not yet learned what the word "theory" means.

You build your little straw man so you can knock it over. Again, you obviously have no understanding of what the word "theoretical" means.

Let us look at what Guzil said here:

b. Eternal life to those: If there was one who genuinely did good at all times, they could merit eternal life of their own accord - but there is none, because all, in some way or another are or have been or will be self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness."

Guzik indeed speaks of the theoretical possibility that a person can receive eternal life by keeping the law because he says:

"If there was one who genuinely did good at all times, they could merit eternal life of their own accord..."

Here Guzik is speaking of the theoretical possibility that a person can indeed receive eternal life by his own works. According to him that would be theoretically possible if a person genuinely did good at all times.

This is way above your head because you cannot distinguish between what happens in reality and what is theoretical. You need to find a dictionary and try to understand the difference between the two because so far you evidently are not able to tell the difference.

You continue to misrepresent what I teach because of your inability to distinguish between the two.

 

What are you? The salvation police? Examine yourself and leave others alone.