Born in Sins part2

[DHK]

HP: I am NOT directing this passage at anyone directly. I am posting it because we are justified in more than one manner.

Mat 12:34O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)

One is justified by faith and faith alone. That is the only way.
Christ is speaking to the nation of Israel here. He is speaking of Judgment. Their words will condemn them. This is judgment. Now look at verse 36 carefully. They shall give account of in the day of judgment. The day of judgment is coming. It will come. And on that day they will be judged according to what they have said.
This day of judgment no doubt, will be the Great White Throne Judgment. For Christ refers to these hypocrites as "vipers," not a choice word for believers. On that day he will judge them "according to their works as is indicated in Rev.20:12. Take what the Bible says in simple faith. Salvation is by grace through faith. (Eph.2:8), and it is not of works (verse 9).

 

[The Biblicist]

HP: I am NOT directing this passage at anyone directly. I am posting it because we are justified in more than one manner.

Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

The very same context as in Matthew 19:17-25 - hypocrits
The very same context as in Romans 2:1-28 - hypocrits
The very same context as in Luke 10 - hypocrits

Likewise here in Matthew 12 the preceding context refers to those who blasphemed the Holy Spirit and are identified as "being evil" (v. 24).

So, it is the judgment of the lost that is in view in all four cases as the saved "shall not come into condemnation" (Jn. 5:24).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: I personally would consider it wise to do everything in my power not to be in any group where words that are 'not so choice' is to be applied.

You know, I desire to do my dead level best to take the Word of God by faith, and then prove my faith by my works. What good is faith if it has not works consistent with it? Faith without works is DEAD being alone, and dead faith will save no one.

So often what I witness is great preaching but then something overcomes the finger of the preacher and twists it in the direction of everyone else but themselves. God will judge you and I as well DHK on that day. Drum up a half a dozen judgments if that is what your mind so desires, but you and I will be there for all of them and we will all give an account for every idle word spoken and the deeds done in the flesh. Don't be fooled into believing differently. The consequences will not be at all 'choice' either.

Personally I would rather heed some not so choice words while there is yet time, and escape the clearly 'possible' and 'not choice at all" eternal effects of the judgment we will both face. Oh yes, we'll all be there from the smallest to the greatest, to give an account, belief or no belief.

 

[DHK]

HP: I personally would consider it wise to do everything in my power not to be in any group where words that are 'not so choice' is to be applied.

You know, I desire to do my dead level best to take the Word of God by faith, and then prove my faith by my works. What good is faith if it has not works consistent with it? Faith without works is DEAD being alone, and dead faith will save no one.

What is faith? It seems that you don't know.
What is "dead" faith?
We all have faith. It is inherent in every man. Jesus taught that unless you have faith as a little child you cannot be saved. Children have faith. What is important is the object of the faith. Faith is confidence. The object of the faith of a child is the parent., The object of my faith (as per salvation) is Jesus Christ. He is the only one that can saved. Salvation comes only through him. Salvation is by faith in Christ and in Him alone. We are justified by faith.
The object of my faith is Christ and Christ alone.
If the object of your faith is in your works, you will not end up in heaven. Christ alone can save; not works.

So often what I witness is great preaching but then something overcomes the finger of the preacher and twists it in the direction of everyone else but themselves. God will judge you and I as well DHK on that day.

I don't know about you HP, but if you believe there is only one judgment, the one described in Rev.20:11-15, I feel sorry for you. But I won't be there. God will not judge me on that day. I will not stand before God and be judged by Him. He has already judged me. My sins are forgiven: past, present and future. My sins are under the blood, never to be remembered again. I will not be at that judgment. God will never judge me according to my evil deeds; never. I stand eternal secure in his hand. Hallelujah!

Drum up a half a dozen judgments if that is what your mind so desires, but you and I will be there for all of them and we will all give an account for every idle word spoken and the deeds done in the flesh. Don't be fooled into believing differently. The consequences will not be at all 'choice' either.

I will not be at that judgment HP. If Christ is speaking to unsaved hypocritical Pharisees, and the judgment that they were going to face, I will not be there. If you believe you will be there, you should examine your faith--seriously.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." (Rom.8:1)

Personally I would rather heed some not so choice words while there is yet time, and escape the clearly 'possible' and 'not choice at all" eternal effects of the judgment we will both face. Oh yes, we'll all be there from the smallest to the greatest, to give an account, belief or no belief.

You need to provide Scripture for your statements. I won't be there. You can't demonstrate through Scripture that I will be, can you?

 

[Moriah]

Hebrews 10

New King James Version (NKJV)

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


In a recent post, in an attempt to show that believers in Christ are judged, this verse was posted.

This is just a few thoughts for consideration.


First we see that our writer quoted the Law:



Deuteronomy 32

King James Version (KJV)

35To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.


How does that apply to the text at hand?

It might sound strange, but oftentimes we can trace back in our text and sometimes see things more clearly, which may sound a little backward (lol...pun intended), but is an evident truth illustrated with the words "therefore" and "wherefore." I think this is just a cultural issue and difference in teaching style that was held by those in this time.

So, lets back up:


29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Some that hold a legalistic theology, and those that promote loss of salvation for the believer (and thus demenaing the work of Christ making it or the believers standing before God not "perfect" as our admiral writer of Hebrews teaches clearly) will immediately point to this text as "proof" that believers must 1-obey the law to retain salvation; 2-can lose their salvation.

The question is, what does this passage teach? Does it teach that which is proposed above, or, can we reconcile with verity and integrity the "hard saying" found here and still keep the integrity of Paul's teaching that we are saved by grace through faith, and that...not of ourselves.

The answer is simply...yes. For it is not a hard saying when we understand that the writer does not speak about believers, but of those that, as it says here..."hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace."

In short, they have despised Christ's death, the very blood which He set apart, called it unholy, and done despite unto the Spirit of Grace.

They have done that which Israel herself did, and it is no wonder our writer uses terminology as he doees, or quotes an example from the Law...for he is speaking to Hebrews.

Can we see this in the text? Of course:


28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


The result for those that reject Christ will be far more severe than the physical death imposed under the witness of other men, for God Himself, the Spirit of Grace which seeks to convict these individuals will bear witness, and no man shall be held guiltless, but will suffer the vengeance of God, and be judged.

This is why our writer quotes Deuteronomy, to make this contrast between the two, not to imply that those who do such...are believers.


27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Believers could not be called adversaries, nor would call the work of Christ unholy, as the Pharisees did.


26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


The wilfull sin is...rejecting Christ. Rejecting the conviction that the Holy Spirit impresses upon the hearts of the unregenerate.

There remaineth no more sacrifice...because the sacrifice of Christ, as repeatedly emphasized in the book of Hebrews is the only sacrifice by which man can receive complete, or, perfect remission.

God's vengeance will be poured out on those who, here, are said to have received the knowledge of the truth. What is that knowledge? One need only keep backing up in this chapter alone to understand that it is the knowledge that the Law could not make perfect, and specifically, the sacrifices for sin that were given as the only means for forgiveness of sin under the Levitical Economy...could not take away sins.


25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


And those that forsake the "assembling of ourselves together" show the validity of their faith. One can be "associated" with the Church, but unless one is associated with Christ their worship is in vain.

So when we see this verse:


Hebrews 10

New King James Version (NKJV)

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


We can see that it is given by our writer to emphasize that those that reject Christ will suffer the vengeance of God and judgment.

Not that believers can lose their salvation.

Our writers intentions were never to give Judaizers ammunition to validate works-based religion, nor did he intend ti diminutize the work of Christ on the Cross, but as the entire chapter, and the entire book teaches...humanity's fate revolves around one afternoon, when the sky grew dark, and wicked men slew the Lord of Glory.

And He did that...willingly.

God bless.

You said a lot here, and even after everything, it is still about God's people.

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

 

[Moriah]

What is faith? It seems that you don't know.
What is "dead" faith?
We all have faith. It is inherent in every man. Jesus taught that unless you have faith as a little child you cannot be saved. Children have faith. What is important is the object of the faith. Faith is confidence. The object of the faith of a child is the parent., The object of my faith (as per salvation) is Jesus Christ. He is the only one that can saved. Salvation comes only through him. Salvation is by faith in Christ and in Him alone. We are justified by faith.
The object of my faith is Christ and Christ alone.
If the object of your faith is in your works, you will not end up in heaven. Christ alone can save; not works.

DHK,
Have you given up any sins since Jesus saved you? Have you changed at all? Do you turn your brother away if he comes to you hungry?
If you have given up sins, and if you have changed since Jesus saved you, and if you would feed your hungry brother who came to you for help, then why do you continue to speak against doing good as if it were wrong to teach this, the Word of God teaches this! If you had a Christian friend who was sinning, would you not try to talk to him about his sin, to help him stop sinning? The Bible says faith without deeds is dead, so why do you speak against anyone who repeats this?

 

[Darrell C]

You said a lot here, and even after everything, it is still about God's people.

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Actually, not that much. However, enough was said to point out that this is a quotation showing that those that reject God's will suffer not only judgment, but it is called vengeance.

In this passage, it is taught by legalists and those who teach that salvation can be lost due to personal sin that the writer is saying that born again believers, if they sin, will receive this veangance and judgment.

The truth is, the people that receive this are not God's people, though under the law it was God's people receiving this in a temporal death, but this refers to those that have knowledge of Christ, and return to Levitical practice.

In this chapter, the primary focus being the sacrifices of the Levitical Economy.

That this is not speaking of born again believers losing salvation and receiving eternal judgment can easily be seen, even within the chapter itself, but a desire to bring man into ondage under the First Covenant again blinds the heart of some of recognizing such a simple statement of truth in scripture.

Consider:


Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

38Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


As under the law, man was not justified, much less receive eternal life, by the law. Why? Because man cannot fulfill the law, as his nature will not permit the perfection required. He must have the life and nature of God to do this.

Here, the drawing back is from...faith. What faith? Faith in the sacrifice of Christ.


39But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


There is a belief to the saving of the soul. That is what keeps a man from drawing back and away from Christ. However, the wilfull sin of v.26 is not only a despising of Christ's sacrifice, but a return to the Levitical Economy.

It is just my opinion, but if Jews offered to sacrifice animals for sin, and allowed Gentiles to participate, many legalists would stand in line, just to "cover their bases." They would rationalize this action, even as they rationalize their diminutive view of the sacrifice of Christ by teaching works-based salvation, which helps insure that the dreadful sinners they are pointing their fingers at...don't fall away.

If you would like to look at Hebrews, or this chapter, let me know. There is a blessing to be found in Hebrews for those that are willing to set aside the teaching they have embraced, and expositionally explore this awesome book, called by some, the "Holy of Holies of the New Testament."

However, if you will not even consider what is said, that also will be evident. But, I want you to know, I do not look at it as "wasting my time on people like you," for this is why I am here: to talk to you.

God bless.

 

[The Biblicist]

DHK,
Have you given up any sins since Jesus saved you? Have you changed at all? Do you turn your brother away if he comes to you hungry?
If you have given up sins, and if you have changed since Jesus saved you, and if you would feed your hungry brother who came to you for help, then why do you continue to speak against doing good as if it were wrong to teach this, the Word of God teaches this! If you had a Christian friend who was sinning, would you not try to talk to him about his sin, to help him stop sinning? The Bible says faith without deeds is dead, so why do you speak against anyone who repeats this?

What exactly is your point? True born again persons ask forgiveness of sins daily and ask for grace to overcome them? So what is your point?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Here are a couple of quotes from a sermon by Scott Grant.

In the entire article granty says nothing specifically about the following verses:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" (Ro.2:5-7).

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).

How long did you have to search to find a commentary that failed to even address those two passages?

Consult a good commentary Jerry.

I did and the one from Dallas Theological Seminary supported my view while the one which you quoted did not even address the verses we are discussing.

Here is what David Guzik says:

"a. Will render to each one according to his deeds: This is an awesome and fearful thought, and it condemns the moralist as well as the obvious sinner.

b. Eternal life to those: If there was one who genuinely did good at all times, they could merit eternal life of their own accord - but there is none, because all, in some way or another are or have been or will be self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness."

http://www.blueletterbible.org/comm...ntID=7983&commInfo=31&topic=Romans&ar=Rom_2_7

So far I have provided two different commentaries and they both agree with my view. You have presented one which does not even discuss the verses which we are arguing about.

 

[Moriah]

Darrel C,

You said: Actually, not that much. However, enough was said to point out that this is a quotation showing that those that reject God's will suffer not only judgment, but it is called vengeance.
In this passage, it is taught by legalists and those who teach that salvation can be lost due to personal sin that the writer is saying that born again believers, if they sin, will receive this veangance and judgment.

My reply: Stop saying “legalists.” The way you use that word, it is evident that you do not know the full meaning of it. A legalist ADDS to God’s Word. Obeying God is not called a legalist. LOL Doing everything God says is called being a man after God's own heart!

You said: The truth is, the people that receive this are not God's people, though under the law it was God's people receiving this in a temporal death, but this refers to those that have knowledge of Christ, and return to Levitical practice.

My reply: The scripture says God will judge His people. In addition, if they were believers of Christ then turned back to belief against Christ, how does that change what the scripture says! Only you want it to say something else.

You said: There is a belief to the saving of the soul. That is what keeps a man from drawing back and away from Christ. However, the wilfull sin of v.26 is not only a despising of Christ's sacrifice, but a return to the Levitical Economy.

My reply: It is so wrong for people like you who resist God’s word and do all they can to support manufactured doctrine.

You said: It is just my opinion, but if Jews offered to sacrifice animals for sin, and allowed Gentiles to participate, many legalists would stand in line, just to "cover their bases." They would rationalize this action, even as they rationalize their diminutive view of the sacrifice of Christ by teaching works-based salvation, which helps insure that the dreadful sinners they are pointing their fingers at...don't fall away.

My reply: Again, you do not know the meaning of legalist. Nor do you seem to understand what to fall back means, something Calvinsts claim could never happen anways.

You said: If you would like to look at Hebrews, or this chapter, let me know. There is a blessing to be found in Hebrews for those that are willing to set aside the teaching they have embraced, and expositionally explore this awesome book, called by some, the "Holy of Holies of the New Testament."

My reply: Calvinists, with their books upon books, to keep near them many Calvinist teachers for their itching ears. The only way I would read what that books says would be to correct all the errors.

You said: However, if you will not even consider what is said, that also will be evident. But, I want you to know, I do not look at it as "wasting my time on people like you," for this is why I am here: to talk to you.

My reply: You do not like my saying to you “people like you.” Why does that bother you so much? I would not be so bothered for you to tell me “people like you.” Stop playing so innocent and sweet here, you know you have been rude and insulting to me. People like you keep trying to be snide to people like me, you use it as a debate tactic to try to impress your friends.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrel C,

You said:

Actually, not that much. However, enough was said to point out that this is a quotation showing that those that reject God's will suffer not only judgment, but it is called vengeance.

In this passage, it is taught by legalists and those who teach that salvation can be lost due to personal sin that the writer is saying that born again believers, if they sin, will receive this veangance and judgment.

My reply: Stop saying “legalists.” The way you use that word, it is evident that you do not know the full meaning of it.

Well, it is inevitable in the course of debate for ignorance to be revealed. The question is...who is ignorant.

I have commented on the verse in question, going through not just that verse, but the surrounding text. Re-examine your response: you will find nothing but what you think scripture teaches, nothing that could be called a serious treatment of the text at hand.

Concerning the term legalist, would it be preferred that I use the term Judaizer?

A legalist ADDS to God’s Word.

Not only that, they avoid what is in scripture.

If you seriously want to present a case that your commentary here has any validity, the proper course of action would be to take up the suggestion I gave, which is to look at the book of Hebrews itself.

It will show that not only is this particular verse not understood, but the chapter it is found in, and the book it has been found in...is not understood. But that is okay. That is understandable, because it is not, at first, a book easily understood.

I will again extend an offer to look at it with you. You will not, perhaps at first, want to hear what I have to say, but, if you look at it as it is written, I can assure you that there is a blessing in it for you that will absolutely change your life.

I do not mean that I have found some "hidden meaning" in scripture, but that by years of study, I have come to understand it...as it is written.

Again, look at your response to me: it is nothing but the words of a man...you. It is opinion, is is a reviling of me. But it does not examine scripture. Do you think that you will win people to Christ by giving them your word?

Obeying God is not called a legalist.

Judaizers believed they were obeying God, but they are convicted...their hearts were far from God, though they believed they did God service. All of us have to keep in mind the lesson that the law taught Israel, the ministry it performed in the redemptive plan of God, but...

We must go on to perfection.

This statement of Hebrews will, by one's understanding of it, will determine whether the heart is one of understanding, or if it is one of legalism.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

LOL

This is a step in the right direction.

Doing everything God says is called being a man after God's own heart!

And here it is evident that it is you...doing everything God says.

Self reliance, rather than the clear word of God:


Ezekiel 36

King James Version (KJV)

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


...go and learn what this meaneth.

You said: The truth is, the people that receive this are not God's people, though under the law it was God's people receiving this in a temporal death, but this refers to those that have knowledge of Christ, and return to Levitical practice.

My reply: The scripture says God will judge His people.

Yes, under the First Covenant.

It contrasts the First with the New. His point, as already pointed out, is like this: "If they were judged under the First Covenant severely, how much more will those that reject Christ be judged."


You do not want to see this as a possibility because it deflates the very basis of your faith, which is one that exacts judgment upon those that are not as holy as you.

But the legalist, the Judaizer, as is clearly shown in scripture...is blind to his own sin.

And if it is pointed out to him, he will inevitably respond in anger, and, like the Pharisees...err because they do not know the scriptures.

In addition, if they were believers of Christ then turned back to belief against Christ, how does that change what the scripture says!

Just is not in the text.

One cannot be perfected forever...and then turn back.

Created is contradiction for the benefit of teaching the traditions of man, which, by the way...is an ancient error.

Only you want it to say something else.

I have given the reasons why I see it to mean what I have presented, cn you also set aside opinion and comment on the text directly?



Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You said: There is a belief to the saving of the soul. That is what keeps a man from drawing back and away from Christ. However, the wilfull sin of v.26 is not only a despising of Christ's sacrifice, but a return to the Levitical Economy.

My reply: It is so wrong for people like you who resist God’s word and do all they can to support manufactured doctrine.

Exactly what "kind of people" am I?

Be careful how you answer, for your heart is already laid bare.

You said: It is just my opinion, but if Jews offered to sacrifice animals for sin, and allowed Gentiles to participate, many legalists would stand in line, just to "cover their bases." They would rationalize this action, even as they rationalize their diminutive view of the sacrifice of Christ by teaching works-based salvation, which helps insure that the dreadful sinners they are pointing their fingers at...don't fall away.

My reply: Again, you do not know the meaning of legalist.

At some point, you will have to address scripture, not just give opinion and focus on terms that describe biblical concepts.

For your sake, I will stop using the term legalist, and use the term Judaizer.

Now, is there scripture you would like to discuss?

Nor do you seem to understand what to fall back means, something Calvinsts claim could never happen anways.

And this is why I state that Calvinism can contribute to a sound theology.

The Calvinist that understands that salvation is a one-time event is correct.

The Judaizer that seeks to bring man under bondage to the law through false humility is in error.

But, again, this is your opportunity to dispense with opinion and deal with the text.

You will think that Hebrews supports the false and Christ diminutive doctrine of loss of salvation but if you spend enough time in Hebrews...your basis of belief will vanish.

I say that with all hope and confidence, for your benefit, not that I might prove myself right, and you wrong. But to prove Christ, and the everlasting life which He gives to those that believe on His name.


Continued...

 

[Moriah]

What exactly is your point? True born again persons ask forgiveness of sins daily and ask for grace to overcome them? So what is your point?

It does not surprise me that you do not get my point. You said true born again persons ask forgiveness of sins daily, I guess you do not overcome much sin if you have to keep asking for forgiveness for them daily. That is how it was when I was a Catholic, which is what Catholics do. Always feeling contrite for sins, but never really stopping any. This is what I want to know, why do people keep going against others for preaching obedience? We are only REPEATING God’s word!

 

[Darrell C]

You said: If you would like to look at Hebrews, or this chapter, let me know. There is a blessing to be found in Hebrews for those that are willing to set aside the teaching they have embraced, and expositionally explore this awesome book, called by some, the "Holy of Holies of the New Testament."

My reply: Calvinists, with their books upon books,

But...you're not talking to a Calvinist.

You're not talking to one that reads Calvinist books.

You're talking to someone that 95% of the time relies only on his keyboard, Strong's concordance, and biblegateway.

You are forced to render arguments like this, truly this is all the entire response was, because an examination of scripture would expose a lack of understanding.

I am not trying to offend you, but I can tell you, should you pursue a discussion of Hebrews, if you are honest, you will have a life changing, eye-opening understanding that escapes most due to false doctrine and lack of expository diligence.

You have my word on that, whatever that is worth.

to keep near them many Calvinist teachers for their itching ears.

My responses to you are from my own personal study.

Who teaches you, Moriah?

The only way I would read what that books says would be to correct all the errors.

You will correct the errors in Hebrews? lol...just kidding, I know what you mean, but, the depth of Hebrews is easily delved with an honest heart, apart from preconceived notions taught by tradition of men.

You said: However, if you will not even consider what is said, that also will be evident. But, I want you to know, I do not look at it as "wasting my time on people like you," for this is why I am here: to talk to you.

My reply: You do not like my saying to you “people like you.”

Doesn't bother me, as you might like it to. I merely pointed out how the abundance of the heart is exposed when we talk.

Why does that bother you so much?

lol

I would not be so bothered for you to tell me “people like you.”

Perhaps not, but you will be bothered by the Spirit of God when you actually study His word.

The word of God has always shown man his sin, and when people read the word of God and come away convinced of the opposite...

Stop playing so innocent and sweet here, you know you have been rude and insulting to me.

Perhaps...and that is my sin.

But at least I can admit that I do, at times, say things that are hurtful.

But lest you think that the offense is only from me, I would suggest that the offense of the Cross will enrage the Judaizer...more than anything.

People like you keep trying to be snide to people like me, you use it as a debate tactic to try to impress your friends.

Say of me what you will.

As far as my "friends," we are not called to make friends, we are called to make disciples.

For the Judaizer, a sound understanding of Hebrews is the best place to start, for most Judaizers can quote the commandments of the First Covenant, but fail to recognize that Hebrews is clear that the First Covenant could not make perfect, and that not only can the Cross make a believer perfect, it perfects the believer...forever.

Now your first thought will be perfection which the modern word will suggest, which is flawlessness.

However, when we read...



Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

We need only to look for the "therefore," that is, we need only back up:




Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


...Perfection means quite simply completion. The law can be seen to be incomplete, and fulfilled in Christ.

No more will one that is made complete in Christ through His offering have to offer up sacrifice, and that, Moriah, is the clear context of Hebrews 10.

Those that forsake the assembling of the brethren are not those who stop going to church, they are those that have come to the conclusion that the sacrifice of Christ, which is the primary topic of ch. 10, is not holy, but unholy.

This is why it is significant when the writer states that "there is no other sacrifice," because only Christ's sacrifice can complete, perfect...forever.

Those who return to the Levitical Economy show that they have rejected the ONE sacrifice that can save them from the judgment of God.

Spend some time in the book. Take your own advice...forego commentaries. Let God teach you.

 

[DHK]

In the entire article granty says nothing specifically about the following verses:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" (Ro.2:5-7).

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).

How long did you have to search to find a commentary that failed to even address those two passages?

It did, just not in the way you wanted it to. You want to ignore the gospel. You want to leave the gospel out. You seem to believe that you can make it to heaven without the gospel. If that is true, your religion is not better than that of Islam.

I did and the one from Dallas Theological Seminary supported my view while the one which you quoted did not even address the verses we are discussing.

Here is what David Guzik says:

Before looking at the subpoint, post the point under which these subpoints are given:
3. (6-10) God will judge the moralist because their works also fall short of God’s perfect standard.
--This puts things in their context doesn't it? The passage is about judgment according to Guzik. Their works fall short of God's perfect standard. Their works cannot save.

"a. Will render to each one according to his deeds: This is an awesome and fearful thought, and it condemns the moralist as well as the obvious sinner.

--A persons works condemns. They do not merit eternal life. Works can only condemn. Why do you think this supports your theology? It doesn't. A person's works can only condemn them. What does he say: It condemns the moralist as well as the obvious sinner. So much for a man's works.

b. Eternal life to those: If there was one who genuinely did good at all times, they could merit eternal life of their own accord - but there is none, because all, in some way or another are or have been or will be self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness."

Read again. If there was one....BUT there is none. Because all...do not obey the truth. This totally discredits what you believe. There is none that keep the law or can keep the law. That is not what you believe. It is what I believe. How do you think this supports your case?

http://www.blueletterbible.org/comm...ntID=7983&commInfo=31&topic=Romans&ar=Rom_2_7

So far I have provided two different commentaries and they both agree with my view. You have presented one which does not even discuss the verses which we are arguing about.

Guzik is the only one I have read. He may even be a Calvinist. I am sure that he doesn't support your case. He says the exact opposite of what you believe.

 

[DHK]

DHK,
Have you given up any sins since Jesus saved you? Have you changed at all? Do you turn your brother away if he comes to you hungry?
If you have given up sins, and if you have changed since Jesus saved you, and if you would feed your hungry brother who came to you for help, then why do you continue to speak against doing good as if it were wrong to teach this, the Word of God teaches this! If you had a Christian friend who was sinning, would you not try to talk to him about his sin, to help him stop sinning? The Bible says faith without deeds is dead, so why do you speak against anyone who repeats this?

Who am I speaking against?
I know beyond any shadow of a doubt, that if I were to die this day I would go straight to heaven to be with the Lord. My sins are all forgiven. They are covered by the blood. My eternity is in God's hands, not mine.
Do you have that assurance?
If not, why not?

My assurance does not rest on an unconfessed sin. I don't have to wait for a priest to come and give me last rites. (I used to be a Catholic). I have no fear of those things now. Whether sin in unconfessed or not, I will still go to heaven.

I know whom I have believed and ma persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It did, just not in the way you wanted it to.

It did not even mention those two verses in anyway except by quoting them.

You want to ignore the gospel. You want to leave the gospel out. You seem to believe that you can make it to heaven without the gospel.

I never said that and you know it. I have said many times that the possibility is true only in "theory."

Before looking at the subpoint, post the point under which these subpoints are given:
3. (6-10) God will judge the moralist because their works also fall short of God’s perfect standard.
--This puts things in their context doesn't it? The passage is about judgment according to Guzik. Their works fall short of God's perfect standard. Their works cannot save.

I have said that over and over. Evidently you have not yet learned what the word "theory" means.

A persons works condemns. They do not merit eternal life. Works can only condemn. Why do you think this supports your theology? It doesn't. A person's works can only condemn them. What does he say: It condemns the moralist as well as the obvious sinner. So much for a man's works.

Read again. If there was one....BUT there is none.

You build your little straw man so you can knock it over. Again, you obviously have no understanding of what the word "theoretical" means.

Guzik is the only one I have read. He may even be a Calvinist. I am sure that he doesn't support your case. He says the exact opposite of what you believe.

Let us look at what Guzil said here:

b. Eternal life to those: If there was one who genuinely did good at all times, they could merit eternal life of their own accord - but there is none, because all, in some way or another are or have been or will be self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness."

Guzik indeed speaks of the theoretical possibility that a person can receive eternal life by keeping the law because he says:

"If there was one who genuinely did good at all times, they could merit eternal life of their own accord..."

Here Guzik is speaking of the theoretical possibility that a person can indeed receive eternal life by his own works. According to him that would be theoretically possible if a person genuinely did good at all times.

This is way above your head because you cannot distinguish between what happens in reality and what is theoretical. You need to find a dictionary and try to understand the difference between the two because so far you evidently are not able to tell the difference.

You continue to misrepresent what I teach because of your inability to distinguish between the two.

 

[Amy.G]

DHK,
Have you given up any sins since Jesus saved you? Have you changed at all? Do you turn your brother away if he comes to you hungry?
If you have given up sins, and if you have changed since Jesus saved you, and if you would feed your hungry brother who came to you for help, then why do you continue to speak against doing good as if it were wrong to teach this, the Word of God teaches this! If you had a Christian friend who was sinning, would you not try to talk to him about his sin, to help him stop sinning? The Bible says faith without deeds is dead, so why do you speak against anyone who repeats this?

What are you? The salvation police? Examine yourself and leave others alone.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: What are you? The salvation police? Examine yourself and leave others alone.

HP: Try that one on your Pastor.​