Born in Sins part2

DHK,

Are not all these scriptures to those who claim to be Christians?

James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

Hebrews 3:13 tells us that we too can be hardened! Hebrews 3:13, we are told to exhort one another daily lest any of you be hardened.

Exodus 32:32-33 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

They WERE IN GOD"S BOOK.

Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

THEY WERE IN THE BOOK OF THE LIVING.

Isaiah 1:2 Hear, O heavens! Listen, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen." See the parable about the Wedding Banquet.

2 Peter 1:10. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,

Why are we told what to do to not fall, if we cannot fall?

Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4. Here Paul tells us we could fall from grace.

We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. Hebrews 2:1. Here Paul tells us how to not drift away.

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. Hebrews 10:38. Here Jesus talks about not to draw back.

Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Hebrews 12:15. Here Paul warns that one can cause trouble and cause many to be defiled.

My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, Galatians 4:19. The Galatians needed Paul to go through again what he had already done with them before, and that is to form Christ in them again.

Read 2 Peter 2:18, wicked men can even mouth empty, boastful words, and, by appealings to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they can even entice people who are just escaping living in error.

Hebrews 10:30, 31 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Did you read that? God will judge HIS PEOPLE. Why is God judging His people? Could it be that they did not obey?

 

You make my point.

Paul is saying that if a person continues in well doing then he will obtain eternal life.

That is the righteous standard the law demands to obtain "eternal life."

Since there is a righteous standard set in order to obtain eternal life then that means that in theory eternal life can be obtained by meeting that righteous standard. that can only mean that theoretically one can obtain eternal life by keeping the law.

If a man is born dead in Adam's sin then no law-keeping can bring him righteousness or eternal life. If he is ever going to be justified then it must be by the pentalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

Therefore if a person is born dead in sin then it is not theoretically possible that anyone can gain eternal life and be justified before God by his own works or deeds as judged by law. However, Paul makes it plain that at least in theory a person can indeed be justified before God by law-keeping:

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).

If a person cannot at least theoretically be justified by doing the law then it would make absolutely no sense for Paul to write those words.

 

Try to follow me in what I am going to say.

Note the repeated "if" in your statements above. IF Paul had explicitly said it is theoretically possible for man to obtain eternal life by the law we would not be reading this repeated "if.....if....therefore if....if" by you.

Hence, Paul does not explicitly state that it is theoretically possible - YOU HAVE TO INFER IT!


Second, YOUR INFERENCE is wholly based upon the doctrinal presumption that man is by nature born into this world INTRINSICALLY GOOD and so nothing but His own free will prevents him from theoretically keeping the law!

Third, this doctrinal assumption that is required to make your inference theoretically possible is precisely what Jesus, Paul and John explicitly repudiate thus making it theoretically impossible for man to obtain eternal life by law keeping!

"There IS NONE good, no, NOT ONE"
There is "NO FLESH" that can be justifed
The law shuts "EVERY MOUTH" from that possibility
"ALL THE WORLD" is condemned under law
"There IS NONE that doeth good, no, NOT ONE"
"There is NONE good but ONE"
"With men this is IMPOSSBLE"

If humans came into the world INTRINSICALLY GOOD by nature there would be MILLIONS that are "good" instead of NONE but ONE!

CONCLUSION: The very basis for your inference to be theoretically possible is completely and wholly repudiated by Scripture.

Romans 2:6-16 presents an OBJECTIVE but ABSTRACT characterization of why the judgement of God will be righteous in order to prove that hypocrits (vv. 1-5; vv. 17-28) will not escape the judgement of God under Law. Romans 3:9-21 makes the application to all the world inclusive of Jews and Gentiles declaring NONE righteous and ALL condemned under God's Law.

 

I did follow you and obviously you cannot even understand my argument. If a person is born dead in sin then there would be no 'righteous standard" which "the Law demands to obtain eternal life."

That is because if a man is born dead in Adam's sin then no law-keeping can bring him righteousness or eternal life. If he is ever going to be justified if he is born dead in sin then it must be by the pentalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

However, even you recognize that there is indeed a righteous standard which the Law demamds to obtain eternal life:

If it was not even theoretically possible to obtain eternal life or to be justified by the Law then Paul would not speak of such things. But he does, proving that it is at least theoretically possible to be justified by keping the Law:

""For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).

Contrary to your blind eyes which cannot see the truth Paul does in fact explicitly states that the "the doers of the law shall be justified."!

The words which I quoted are not merely an inference, as you would have others believe, but instead is an EXPLICIT statement.

You teach that a person comes out of the womb dead spiritually but the Scriptures make it [plain that no one is blotted out of the book of liofe until he sins:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book" (Ex.32:33).

That completely contradicts your idea that a person comes out of the womb dead spiritually as a result of Adam's sin.

That is right. Paul's argument is not that men come out of the womb unrighteous but instead that men become unrighjteous because there are none that "doeth" good.

 

Who ignored who, Jerry?
I gave you a verse by verse commentary of the entire passage showing you what each verse means. I gave the entire context. Then you go back and pick out one verse and stick to your convoluted meaning even when you are shown the correct meaning. Are you totally unteachable?

 

I never said that God doesn't judge his people. Read Hebrews 12 how God chastises his own people, and sometimes very severely. There is a sin unto death. The Corinthian believers abused the Lord's Table. For this reason some were sick, some were weak, and some were killed. That is judgment. God killed Annanias and Sapphira. That is judgment. God certainly judges his people, and sometimes very severely. The most miserable person on the face of this world is a Christian outside of the will of God. Why? Because he faces the discipline of God. God will discipline his own children until they come back to the road that he wants them to walk. There are great examples of that in the OT, given also in 1Cor.10.

But judgment of God's people never results in loss of salvation.

 

I was correcting the verses which you perverted about what Paul said in regard to what determines how a person receives either "tribulation and anguish" or "eternal life."

Let us look at exactly what Paul says about this:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-9).

Paul is clearly stating what it is that brings either condemnation or eternal life, and it is a person's "deeds" or "works." The Greek word translated "render" means "to requite, recompense, in a good or bad sense...Ro. ii. 6" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

In the case of those who theoretically continue in well doing the word "recompense" means "reward" (The American College Dictionary). Therefore the Lord "rewards" according to one's works and the reward is "eternal life."

So Paul is saying that the Lord will recompense every man according to his deeds. And that which is recompensed is either "tribulation and wrath" or "eternal life."

Of course this directly contradicts your ideas and you do not even attempt to prove that what I say is in error.

This is not speaking of anyone receiving eternal life as a result of faith and since you have no answer you say that you have already addressed this even though you have not.

These verses are speaking of a judgment that will take place on the same day (Ro.2:16). However, the "judgment seat of Christ" and the "Great White Throne judgment" happen at two different times.

 

Are "God's People" in view?

Hebrews 10

New King James Version (NKJV)

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


In a recent post, in an attempt to show that believers in Christ are judged, this verse was posted.

This is just a few thoughts for consideration.


First we see that our writer quoted the Law:



Deuteronomy 32

King James Version (KJV)

35To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

36For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.


How does that apply to the text at hand?

It might sound strange, but oftentimes we can trace back in our text and sometimes see things more clearly, which may sound a little backward (lol...pun intended), but is an evident truth illustrated with the words "therefore" and "wherefore." I think this is just a cultural issue and difference in teaching style that was held by those in this time.

So, lets back up:


29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Some that hold a legalistic theology, and those that promote loss of salvation for the believer (and thus demenaing the work of Christ making it or the believers standing before God not "perfect" as our admiral writer of Hebrews teaches clearly) will immediately point to this text as "proof" that believers must 1-obey the law to retain salvation; 2-can lose their salvation.

The question is, what does this passage teach? Does it teach that which is proposed above, or, can we reconcile with verity and integrity the "hard saying" found here and still keep the integrity of Paul's teaching that we are saved by grace through faith, and that...not of ourselves.

The answer is simply...yes. For it is not a hard saying when we understand that the writer does not speak about believers, but of those that, as it says here..."hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace."

In short, they have despised Christ's death, the very blood which He set apart, called it unholy, and done despite unto the Spirit of Grace.

They have done that which Israel herself did, and it is no wonder our writer uses terminology as he doees, or quotes an example from the Law...for he is speaking to Hebrews.

Can we see this in the text? Of course:


28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


The result for those that reject Christ will be far more severe than the physical death imposed under the witness of other men, for God Himself, the Spirit of Grace which seeks to convict these individuals will bear witness, and no man shall be held guiltless, but will suffer the vengeance of God, and be judged.

This is why our writer quotes Deuteronomy, to make this contrast between the two, not to imply that those who do such...are believers.


27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.


Believers could not be called adversaries, nor would call the work of Christ unholy, as the Pharisees did.


26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


The wilfull sin is...rejecting Christ. Rejecting the conviction that the Holy Spirit impresses upon the hearts of the unregenerate.

There remaineth no more sacrifice...because the sacrifice of Christ, as repeatedly emphasized in the book of Hebrews is the only sacrifice by which man can receive complete, or, perfect remission.

God's vengeance will be poured out on those who, here, are said to have received the knowledge of the truth. What is that knowledge? One need only keep backing up in this chapter alone to understand that it is the knowledge that the Law could not make perfect, and specifically, the sacrifices for sin that were given as the only means for forgiveness of sin under the Levitical Economy...could not take away sins.


25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


And those that forsake the "assembling of ourselves together" show the validity of their faith. One can be "associated" with the Church, but unless one is associated with Christ their worship is in vain.

So when we see this verse:


Hebrews 10

New King James Version (NKJV)

30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.


We can see that it is given by our writer to emphasize that those that reject Christ will suffer the vengeance of God and judgment.

Not that believers can lose their salvation.

Our writers intentions were never to give Judaizers ammunition to validate works-based religion, nor did he intend ti diminutize the work of Christ on the Cross, but as the entire chapter, and the entire book teaches...humanity's fate revolves around one afternoon, when the sky grew dark, and wicked men slew the Lord of Glory.

And He did that...willingly.

God bless.

 

Not really.

six short lines in this box constitutes five entire verses?? I think not! You left a lot out didn't you?
There are two judgments in view. Paul is contrasting throughout the passage one judgement; one group to another. You do realize that don't you? Thus he will render every man according to his deeds.

There are two judgments. Not one judgment--two judgments. One for believers; one for unbelievers. Can we agree on that?
One is found in 1Cor.3:11-15; the other is found in Rev.20:11-15 (two judgments)

At the first judgment stand believers only. They are already there by the blood of Christ. They cannot lose their salvation. They are there by faith. For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God not of works. Salvation is not of works. This truth is written over and over again throughout Scripture. Salvation is not of works.
They are at the Judgment Seat of Christ because of their faith in Christ.
What is "rendered according to their works"? It is reward or loss of reward. Look at what it says in 1Cor.3:12ff.

Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (1 Corinthians 3:12)
--Two groups of reward for the believer: gold, silver, precious stones.
Or, wood, hay and stubble. Which kind of reward will you receive is dependent upon your works. You are judged here according to your works, but you will not lose your salvation.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. (1 Corinthians 3:13)
--Every man's work shall be made manifest. It shall be revealed by fire.

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15)
--Wood, hay and stubble burn. Some will lose their reward. But they will not lose their salvation.

--Now the rest of the verse that you quoted: "now unto them that are contentious..."
Who is contentious? The unsaved! What is the result of the unsaved?
They will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment. Why? Because they rejected Christ. What will happen? Before they will be cast into the Lake of Fire they will be judged according to their works.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Revelation 20:12)
--The dead are the unsaved. They will be judged according to their works, but they still will be cast into the lake of fire. Perhaps their judgment according to their works will indicate the severity of judgement they will receive in the Lake of fire. Perhaps it indicates that there will be degrees of torment in the Lake of Fire. I am not sure. Either way, they are judged according to their and their final destiny is the lake of fire.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14-15)

No he doesn't. What brings condemnation is faith in Christ or rejection of Christ. Their works is a result of that. A believer has eternal life. Paul says that in verse seven. The characteristic of the life of that believer is described thusly: "patient continuance in well doing seek for
glory and honour and immortality."
This is not characteristic of an unbeliever. Unbelievers do the opposite.

The passage is talking about judgement. And the reward for the saved is eternal life. The reward for the unsaved is eternal condemnation.

John 3:36 says about the unbeliever that the "wrath of God abides or remains upon him."
John 5:24 speaks about the believer, and says that he already has eternal life.

No, my explanation correlates with the rest of Scripture; yours does not. It contradicts the rest of Scripture, so you know it is wrong. Scripture interprets itself.

Only those who live by faith can be characterized as those who continue in well doing seeking after glory and immortality. The unsaved are characterized as "there is none righteous; there is none that doeth good, no not one." You have a contradiction.

And there are two judgements spoken of here. But if your going to deliberately remain blind to the truth, what can I do?

 

You refuse to even deal with what I said about your assertion that two judgments are in view. If that is true then they are both on the same day:

"This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares" (Ro.2:16).

Those who receive eternal life as a result of believing will not be judged in regard to whether or not they will receive eternal life:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (Jn.5:24).

The only "judgment" which the believer will come into is only in regard to His "works," and even if his works come up short he will be saved nonetheless:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1 Cor.3:15).

However, the following verses are speaking of a judgment which will result in either comdemnation or eternal life:

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile" (Ro.2:5-9).

In these verses what is rendered, according to the deed of "continuance in well doing," is eternal life:

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life."

For some reason you cannot grasp the simple fact that Paul is speaking about the results of a person's deeds or works. Those who continue in well doing will receive eternal life.

Those who sin, according to one's own works or deeds, will perish:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law" (Ro.2:12).

Those who can keep the law will, according to their deeds, be justified by the law:

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).

Those who comtinue in well doing, according to their deeds or works, will receive eternal life:

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life."

If your ideas are right then Paul would have said, "Who will render to everyone according to his FAITH...eternal life"

But that is not what he said.

 

Consult a good commentary Jerry.
You don't seem to want to listen to me. There are two judgments, not one. You seem to be unable to keep these judgments straight in your mind, even when the context is very clear. Let me give you an example.

You pull a verse right out of context:
in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ. (Romans 2:16)
--Now you loudly proclaim: "See there is only one judgment! I am right and you are wrong." This is so wrong Jerry. You haven't even considered the context in which it is written.
Go back and see.

For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law--to themselves are a law; who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending, (Romans 2:14-15)
--For when the nations which have not the law...
It is written here about the Gentile nations--the unsaved Gentile nations that have not trusted Christ as Savior. They have the law of God written in their hearts, know about God by their own consciences, and by nature, their own depravity and sinful hearts reject the little light that the do have.
Judgment will come upon them and they will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment. That is the context. But you have yanked a verse from its context and proudly proclaimed an opposite meaning. I can't help you when you do that. You are simply being obstinate to the truth of God's Word.

 

No, you did not follow me and that is obivous and yes I understand your presumptuous argument clearly.

Since persons are indeed born in sin, born spiritually dead, therefore they cannot be justified by the law because of the standard of the law is sinlessness.

However, since sinners are BLIND to their own sinfulness, and IGNORANT of the righteousness God demands, God "ADDED" the law to expose their sinfulness and show them their need of a sinless Savior, so that self-righteous hypocrits like Saul of Tarsus who perceived himself "blameless" would be brought to conviction by the Spirit of God using the law of God to see his "blamelessness" is but "DUNG"!

So simple, so clear to those who have eyes to see

 

I give you scripture; I give you context; I give you exposition of said Scripture. You give me opinion and denial. What more can I say?

 

Do you have one?

I am sure that it does not say that those who receive eternal life in this passage receive it by "faith":

"the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" (Ro.2:5-7).

Does any commentary which you have agree with you and say this is speaking about some people obtaining eternal life by "faith"? And does that commentary say that the following verse is speaking about people being justified because they believe?:

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).

If it says that I would suggest you throw it in the trash because that is where it belongs.

The following commentary written by faculty of the Dallas Theological Seminary agrees with my view and contradicts yours:

"In this section (2:1-16) God is seen as the Creator-Sovereign of the universe conducting the moral government of His human creatures. God's absolute standards are known. God punishes the wicked and rewards the righteous impartially according to their works, which reveal their hearts. Since no human being--Jesus Christ excepted--can be declared rightous (justified) by God on the basis of his own merit, everyone is condemned by God. At this point in Paul's argument the way a person can secure a righteous standing before God has not yet been presented. Here the emphasis is on the justice of God's judgment, leading to the conclusion that nobody on his own can be declared righteous by God" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, ed. Walvoord & Zuck [Colorado Springs: ChariotVictor, 1983], 446).

You say that these verses are speaking of those who have already received eternal life by faith but this commentary says that at this point in Paul's argument the way a person can secure a righteous standing before God has not yet been presented.

You say that these verses are not speaking of anyone potentially receiving "eternal life" as a result of their works but this commentary says, "God punishes the wicked and rewards the righteous impartially according to their works, which reveal their hearts."

Now you can go about perverting what is said here just as you did Paul's words at Romans 2:5-7.

Frankly, it is beyond me how anyone can say that the following passage is speaking about obtaining eternal life by faith:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life" (Ro.2:5-7).

The Bible Knowledge Commentary got it right when it says:

"God's absolute standards are known. God punishes the wicked and rewards the righteous impartially according to their works, which reveal their hearts.

According to your twisted view the verses in question are showing that God punishes the wicked according to their works and He rewards the righteous according to their "faith."

 

Hello DHK, in a situation where one will not address the detailed exposition of scripture as you have consistently provided on these issues, there is really nothing more you can do.

That you continue to seek to address the same points (I think they have what, three, that they feel are "proofs?") shows that you feel there is hope, and that is always an admiral quality.

Just for the record, your efforts do not go unnoticed.

Good night, and God bless.

 

Here are a couple of quotes from a sermon by Scott Grant.

You can find the entire sermon here:



http://www.pbc.org/system/message_files/22808/22808_4951.pdf

Note: The gospel is always received by faith.
And, the law never justifies anyone.

 

Sin originates from a sinful heart just as fruit is the product of the tree. Man is born a sinner by nature and that is proven by the book of Job (Job 14:1,4; 15:14; 25:3). Jesus was born sinless and that is proven by the virgin birth.