Born in Sins part2

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: No.
You can be sincere, but sincerely wrong.
The Muslims say that they believe the Bible.
Their understanding of the Bible is the version of the Bible contained in the Koran. Their understanding is completely different than ours.

The J.W. and the Mormon have a completely different understanding of the Bible than we do. They may be sincere, but they are sincerely wrong.

HP: That is too strong for me DHK. I would never associate a brother in the Lord with cults and those outside of the faith. I will pray that what you say is truely in ignorance and pray for God to give you new light. I am trying to be kind. I hope I come across that way. :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

HP: That is too strong for me DHK. I would never associate a brother in the Lord with cults and those outside of the faith. I will pray that what you say is truely in ignorance and pray for God to give you new light. I am trying to be kind. I hope I come across that way. :thumbsup:

You asked a question unrelated to our discussion. It was a simple question that required a simple answer. I in no way related it to a brother in Christ. Perhaps you need to rephrase your question better.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, that is evidence that Jesus did not have a depraved heart; that he was born of a virgin to escape the curse of Adam; that he was completely sinless and a perfect man in every way. He was God; the God-Man. You are not.

So once again you deny what is so clearly stated here:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

You are doing nothing but using as your "proof" the very thing which you are trying to prove.

Since the Lord of Glory is the only one that could live sinless that proves your entire theory wrong. No human could do it, not even Adam. All men since Adam have a sin nature. You are making a stronger and stronger case for the depravity of man with your comments.

Again, you are using as your "proof" the very thing which you have not yet proved.

As long as you keep saying that it is possible for you to go to heaven simply by works or keeping the law, I will assume that is what you believe.

I have always said that no one lives a sinless life so all are in need of grace and you know it. Once again you are misrepresenting my beliefs. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Otherwise why would you be here arguing such a position?

I have already said that this is in regard to "theory" and if the Scriptures teach that a person can theoretically obtain eternal life by keeping the law then it is impossible that men are born dead in Adam's sin.

If a man is born dead in Adam's sin then no law-keeping can bring him righteousness or eternal life. If he is ever going to be justified then it must be by the pentalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

Therefore if a person is born dead in sin then it is not theoretically possible that anyone can gain eternal life and be justified before God by his own works or deeds as judged by law.

If you really believe that you can get to heaven by keeping the law, then you don't need a Savior, you need a law.

You know that I have already said that I have sinned and I am not trying to get to heaven by law keeping. I said that I believed the gospel and am saved by grace.

You KNOW all of this but you continue to sling mud by saying things which you KNOW are not true.

Why would you say the following since I have made it plain that what you say is NOT true:

If you really believe that you can get to heaven by keeping the law, then you don't need a Savior, you need a law.

I do not REALLY believe that and you know it!

 

[DHK]

So once again you deny what is so clearly stated here:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

I don't deny the Scriptures. Why would you think that?
What you have done is take this verse out of context. Why leave off verse 18:

(Heb 2:18) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
--Jesus was made like his brothers in every way:
1. that he could be qualified as our great high priest (see also Heb.4:15ff)
2. that he would be able to help us when we are tempted or tested for now he also has been tempted in all points such as we have been.
--This passage speaks nothing about his nature!
--We have a sin nature; he does not. This verse does not say anything about that point. You can't read into a verse things that are not there. That is called eisigeses. It doesn't say he had white skin and blue eyes either.

You are doing nothing but using as your "proof" the very thing which you are trying to prove.

Jerry, over and over again I point you to the Scripture, most of which you ignore. What do you use as your "proof"? You have nothing but baseless and boring repetition of the same old, same old.

Again, you are using as your "proof" the very thing which you have not yet proved.

Here is what I said:

Since the Lord of Glory is the only one that could live sinless that proves your entire theory wrong. No human could do it, not even Adam. All men since Adam have a sin nature. You are making a stronger and stronger case for the depravity of man with your comments.
--Do I need to prove to you that Christ was sinless?
--Do I need to prove to you that Christ was and is the only person that ever was and is sinless. No other person has ever attained that status.
--Do I need to prove to you that we are all sinners (Rom.3:23) ?
--Do I need to prove to you that the Bible teaches us that we by nature are children of wrath, the children of the devil, our father is the devil (Eph.2:2,3; John 8:44).
--What have I not proved Jerry? What more proof do you want?

I have always said that no one lives a sinless life so all are in need of grace and you know it. Once again you are misrepresenting my beliefs. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I am not ashamed. You are on this board posting a heretical point of view. And then you say you don't believe it. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. If you don't believe it why are you posting heresy. A man is justified by faith, not of works. Why would you be posting that a man can be justified by works if you know he can't? Jerry why are you posting heresy on the board even when you know it is heresy!!!!

I have already said that this is in regard to "theory" and if the Scriptures teach that a person can theoretically obtain eternal life by keeping the law then it is impossible that men are born dead in Adam's sin.

It is not possible even in theory. Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me." What part of that verse don't you get??

If a man is born dead in Adam's sin then no law-keeping can bring him righteousness or eternal life. If he is ever going to be justified then it must be by the pentalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

You don't make any sense here at all.
First "death" simply means "separation."
Adam died the moment he ate of the fruit of the tree.
"in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." It wasn't a physical death. It was spiritual. It was spiritual separation from God. He needed to be reconciled to God.
That is what all men need. Death is separation. All men need to be reconciled to God. They are separated from him by sin. The sin problem needs to be taken care of before they can have life. That was taken care of by Christ on the cross. He paid the penalty for our sin. We need to recognize that and accept that payment. That atonement, that payment for our sins is what makes it possible for us to come to God. He forgives our sins and gives us eternal life. We were once separated by sin; now we, by the blood of Christ are made nigh and brought into his fellowship.
He not only pays the penalty for our sins, but also for the Adamic sin nature. He is a powerful God. He gives us a new nature, as is described in Romans 7.

Therefore if a person is born dead in sin then it is not theoretically possible that anyone can gain eternal life and be justified before God by his own works or deeds as judged by law.

Exactly right. It has never been possible.

You know that I have already said that I have sinned and I am not trying to get to heaven by law keeping. I said that I believed the gospel and am saved by grace.

Then post what you believe and not the heresy you don't believe!

You KNOW all of this but you continue to sling mud by saying things which you KNOW are not true.

Why would you say the following since I have made it plain that what you say is NOT true:

I do not REALLY believe that and you know it!

You stop posting the heresy you say you don't believe, and I will stop posting about the heresy you say you don't believe.

 

[DHK]

"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified" (Ro.2:13).

According to your so-called "scientific method" the words of Paul when he speaks of the doers of the law being justified do not have any validity!

Why would he say such a thing if there was not some truth behind it?

Here is some more context for you to cogitate on

(Wycliffe's Translation)

5 But aftir thin hardnesse and vnrepentaunt herte, thou tresorist to thee wraththe in the dai of wraththe and of schewyng of the riytful doom of God, 6 that schal yelde to ech man aftir his werkis; 7 sotheli to hem that ben bi pacience of good werk, glorie, and onour, and vncorrupcioun, to hem that seken euerlastynge lijf; 8 but to hem that ben of strijf, and that assenten not to treuthe, but bileuen to wickidnesse, wraththe and indignacioun, tribulacioun and angwisch, 9 in to ech soule of man that worchith yuel, to the Jew first, and to the Greke; 10 but glorie, and honour, and pees, to ech man that worchith good thing, to the Jew first, and to the Greke. 11 For accepcioun of persones is not anentis God. 12 For who euere han synned without the lawe, schulen perische withouten the lawe; and who euere han synned in the lawe, thei schulen be demyd bi the lawe.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

First "death" simply means "separation."
Adam died the moment he ate of the fruit of the tree.
"in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." It wasn't a physical death. It was spiritual. It was spiritual separation from God. He needed to be reconciled to God.
That is what all men need. Death is separation. All men need to be reconciled to God.

So do you agree with the Calvinists when they say that Adam and Eve's spiritual death was conveyed to all of their posterity by means of ordinary generation?:

"They being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

If your answer is "yes" then please provide the Scriptures which supports that idea. If you answer is "no" then do you believe that infants are born dead spiritually and what evidence from the Scriptures can you give to support that assertation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

My question to DHK would be this. Do spiritually dead men have spiritual insight? If so, how can that be? If not, where does it say that all from birth have no spiritual insight?

 

[DHK]

So do you agree with the Calvinists when they say that Adam and Eve's spiritual death was conveyed to all of their posterity by means of ordinary generation?:

"They being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

If your answer is "yes" then please provide the Scriptures which supports that idea. If you answer is "no" then do you believe that infants are born dead spiritually and what evidence from the Scriptures can you give to support that assertation.

Do they need a Savior? Yes or No?
Did Christ die for the infant as well as the adult? yes or no?
If yes, why?
If no, what hope does he have?
This is faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1Tim.1:15)
Did Christ come into the world to save all?
If all includes sinners, does that all also include infants?
Or don't infants need a Savior?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, God clearly states in Romans 2:6 that God shall judge "every man according to his deeds." What 'deeds' has an infant done deserving of eternal punishment, and what gives one that indeed has done deeds the right to exclude themselves from that judgment?

Does "every man" mean "every man" or not? If you think you are excluded from that judgment, you must believe that "every man" is not all inclusive. Why would you try to make the notion of "all sinners" include infants that clearly have not sinned?

Conclusion: While you falsely strain the gnat of infants being sinners and judged by God and in need a of a Savior, you swallow a camel in excluding yourself for any wicked deeds you commit as a grown adult, falsely assuming that because of your position in Christ you will not be judged in the "every man" being judged by the direct testimony of Scripture. You falsely conclude the notion concerning infants, for it is not stated anywhere in Scripture that God will judge them, ...while excluding yourself from judgment that Scripture states flat out every man, that includes you and I, will indeed be judged by our deeds. While condeming the innocent you give a free pass to those that might indeed be guilty. Your beliefs appear to me as clearly in need of reconsideration.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Do they need a Savior?

Earlier you posed as an expert on "spiritual death" but when I asked you questions about that death and infants you practice a little sleight of hand in order to divert attention away from the fact that you provide no answer.

You prove once again that you are a master in the art of legerdemain but you come up short when it comes to providing actual evidence from the Scriptures to support your theories!

Adam died the moment he ate of the fruit of the tree.
"in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." It wasn't a physical death. It was spiritual.

So do you agree with the Calvinists when they say that Adam and Eve's spiritual death was conveyed to all of their posterity by means of ordinary generation?:

"They being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

If your answer is "yes" then please provide the Scriptures which supports that idea. If you answer is "no" then do you believe that infants are born dead spiritually and what evidence from the Scriptures can you give to support that assertation.

Surely you have some evidence, don't you?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jerry, should not one be certain the listener understands, that when one speaks of being born 'spiritually alive,' it does not insinuate all are born in a 'born again state of a believer, i.e., alive IN Christ, nor are they born in the estate of Adam, in that most likely he was created as an adult and fully capable of moral accountability from creation, but rather are simply born with the 'capacity and abilities' necessary for the development of spiritual understanding and subsequent moral accountability?

 

[Moriah]

We are all sinners, even if we have a negative thought. We are all bound to sin and to wrath. Even if we did not know we were committing sin, see Romans 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
A person still sins even if they did not sin by breaking a command that is what Romans 5:14 says. We are all lost in this world; we are all sinners needing a Savior. Do we not all die? Do not even infants die?
However, even though we are all sinners, that does NOT mean we are all totally depraved and cannot believe in God after learning of Jesus. Nowhere does the scriptures say that, NOWHERE. We are to believe in God’s Word, not in the assumptions of men like Calvin, and Luther.

 

[DHK]

My question to DHK would be this. Do spiritually dead men have spiritual insight? If so, how can that be? If not, where does it say that all from birth have no spiritual insight?

I would differ with some Calvinists on this.
The Bible makes it clear that all men have some spiritual insight.
God has revealed himself through:
1. Our consciences.
2. His law written on our hearts (Romans 2:14,15)
3. Nature (Psalm 19:1-3)
4. His creation (Romans 1:18-20)

In the last passage it clearly says that man "is without excuse." It goes as far as to say:

(Rom 1:20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--No one is without excuse for knowing that there is only one God, and that God has revealed Himself to them.
Spiritual insight comes in different forms.
Seek ye the Lord while he may be found.
God commands all men everywhere to repent. He would not have given that command had he not expected all men to repent. Thus it is possible for all lmen to exercise some spiritual insight of some kind.
Death simply means separation. If a man is dead he is separated from God. He must find out how to come into fellowship with God, and that means in dealing with his sin problem.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah: We are all sinners, even if we have a negative thought.

HP: I would take exception to that. Thoughts in and of themselves are not sin necessarily. Sin has a clear progression. It well may start with a thought, but the will has to formulate intentions in agreement to selfishness for sin to be conceived.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I liked your response DHK. Thank you. :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

So do you agree with the Calvinists when they say that Adam and Eve's spiritual death was conveyed to all of their posterity by means of ordinary generation?:

"They being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

If your answer is "yes" then please provide the Scriptures which supports that idea. If you answer is "no" then do you believe that infants are born dead spiritually and what evidence from the Scriptures can you give to support that assertation.

Yes that is true: Gen.5:3; Jer.13:23; Psa.51:5; 58:3; Rom.5:12,18-20; Jer.17:9; 1Tim.4:9.

 

[DHK]

Earlier you posed as an expert on "spiritual death" but when I asked you questions about that death and infants you practice a little sleight of hand in order to divert attention away from the fact that you provide no answer.

Do infants need a Savior? Yes or no. You don't want to answer that question, or are unable to answer that question. It is very simple but you won't answer it? Why?
What about the death of infants. Abraham said:
"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Do you believe him?

You prove once again that you are a master in the art of legerdemain but you come up short when it comes to providing actual evidence from the Scriptures to support your theories!

I have provided Scripture; you provide only philosophical speculations. Why should I believe you?

So do you agree with the Calvinists when they say that Adam and Eve's spiritual death was conveyed to all of their posterity by means of ordinary generation?:

(Rom 5:19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
--The verse is very clear. Adam sinned. By that one act all future generations were made sinners.

"They being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation"

(The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

If your answer is "yes" then please provide the Scriptures which supports that idea. If you answer is "no" then do you believe that infants are born dead spiritually and what evidence from the Scriptures can you give to support that assertation.

Surely you have some evidence, don't you?

I have already provided you with an entire list of Scriptures. Did you read them.

 

[Moriah]

HP: I would take exception to that. Thoughts in and of themselves are not sin necessarily. Sin has a clear progression. It well may start with a thought, but the will has to formulate intentions in agreement to selfishness for sin to be conceived.

I did not say ALL thoughts are sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

deleted by author

 

[Jerry Shugart]

DHK,

I asked you:

So do you agree with the Calvinists when they say that Adam and Eve's spiritual death was conveyed to all of their posterity by means of ordinary generation?

You answered in the following way and cited the Scriptures which you think teaches that Adam and Eve's spiritual death was conveyed to all of their posterity:

Yes that is true: Gen.5:3; Jer.13:23; Psa.51:5; 58:3; Rom.5:12,18-20; Jer.17:9; 1Tim.4:9.

None of those verses except one says a thing about how a person dies spiritually.

Let us look at the one verse which you cited that does show how a person dies spiritually:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12; KJV).

That verse supports my view and not yours. A person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin and not because Adam's spiritual death is conveyed to him.

Since a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin then common sense dictates that he must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually. Therefore it is impossible that a person comes into the world spiritually dead, as you believe.

All of the translations of Romans 5:12 which I can find teach the same truth:

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" (NKJV).

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" (NIV).

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (NASB).

"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (RSV).

The same truth is also revealed in the NLT, ESV, ASV, YLT, DBY, WEB and HNV.

Why should we not believe what Paul teaches at Romans 5:12, that men die spiritually as a result of his own sin and NOT as a result of Adam's sin?