Bible Prophecy & Eschatology & 2 Thes 2:6-7

[asterisktom]

Thanks Tom. You beat me to it!

You are welcome, OR. I figured you would have written something similar.

 

[Darrell C]

Well hello "mutt". Where's "Jeff"? :laugh: J/K. Please do not take offense. If this offended you, I apologize in advance.

lol...no offense taken, and none seen as being meant, C1.

What makes this even funnier is that "Jeff" is actually my middle name...lol.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

There have always been people who knew God's grace, though largely forgotten by history. We have the Lollards, Petrobrusians, Albigensians, and plenty others.

But there have not always been people that have received full forgiveness for their sin. This was an impossibility until the Cross.

God bless.

 

[asterisktom]

But there have not always been people that have received full forgiveness for their sin. This was an impossibility until the Cross.

God bless.

Are you sure of this? Shall we put David, who wrote Psalm 32, in this category?

 

[Darrell C]

Are you sure of this? Shall we put David, who wrote Psalm 32, in this category?

We can put all men in this category.

God bless.

 

[asterisktom]

We can put all men in this category.

God bless.

We can put all men in the category you mentioned? David, then, died not fully forgiven? I don't think you meant to say this.

The cross has power to work both ways in time, fully justifying in the OT, just as does for us in the present. I assume you believe this too.

 

[Iconoclast]

My history may be faulty, but I can't recall reading that Nero ever sat in the Temple. The only Roman who ever did that was Pompey somewhere round about 60 BC.

My best bet for the Antichrist is still the Pope. Not the dear old fellow who occupies the post at present, but the office itself which contrives to blaspheme the entire Trinity. If this is the case, then it will be the Holy Spirit who was the restrainer.

Someone else as fvourite for Antichrist may emerge at some point, and one should always hold such views tentatively. We are told that our Lord will come 'suddenly,' 'like a thief in the night,' and also at a time when most (non-Christian) people are saying 'Peace and safety!' (1Thes 5). We are therefore to watch and be sober because we do not know the day nor the hour (Matt 25:13); that is, we know neither the exact time nor the approximate time (Mark 13:32-37). Therefore the practical lesson we draw is that we should be prepared for the Lord's return at any time. The details surrounding the event may be unclear, but our Lord's command is not. "And what I say to you, I say to all; Watch!"

Steve

Hello MM,
There are many anti-christs and the popes do qualify. I am not dogmatic about this...but it is the best option I have seen yet....The temple which was considered the Holy place was still there at that time...it does not have to be rebuilt like the premill say. If it was rebuilt....it could not be properly called the Holy Place since our Great High Priest has gone beyond the vail:thumbsup:

 

[Darrell C]

We can put all men in the category you mentioned? David, then, died not fully forgiven? I don't think you meant to say this.

The cross has power to work both ways in time, fully justifying in the OT, just as does for us in the present. I assume you believe this too.

I did mean that David did die..."not fully forgiven." This is a primary thrust of Hebrews...that the law, nor any other means...could take away sins.

While David was declared just, until his sin was placed upon Christ, the penalty remained, even as a man on death row awaits his penalty. The difference being that when this penalty came due...a reprieve was granted (for David, in expectation of the work of Christ), and when the penalty was exacted, it was upon Christ...not David.

We can split hairs concerning David being "fully forgiven," for I would agree that in one sense he was, however, that did not mean that his sin did not, like every other man in human history, have to be paid.

And when was David's sin...atoned for.

Without the shedding of blood...there is no remission. And unless we want to deny the clear statement of scripture, we know that David's sin was not atoned for, nor fully forgiven...through the law.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Okay, guys, just have to insert at this point that I forgot there were two threads dealing with the same issues...lol.

Not much time this morning, so I hope our discussions have not overlapped.

Will try to sort this out when I have more time to back up and review both conversations.

God bless.

 

[asterisktom]

I did mean that David did die..."not fully forgiven." This is a primary thrust of Hebrews...that the law, nor any other means...could take away sins.

While David was declared just, until his sin was placed upon Christ, the penalty remained, even as a man on death row awaits his penalty. The difference being that when this penalty came due...a reprieve was granted (for David, in expectation of the work of Christ), and when the penalty was exacted, it was upon Christ...not David.

We can split hairs concerning David being "fully forgiven," for I would agree that in one sense he was, however, that did not mean that his sin did not, like every other man in human history, have to be paid.

And when was David's sin...atoned for.

Without the shedding of blood...there is no remission. And unless we want to deny the clear statement of scripture, we know that David's sin was not atoned for, nor fully forgiven...through the law.

God bless.

As far as I can tell, I think we are pretty much agreed on this. I think. At any rate, I don't say that David was ever justified by Law. He was saved by grace through faith, just as we are. His faith looked ahead - just as ours look back - to salvation in Christ.

 

[Tom Butler]

Back to the identity of the Restrainer:
A former pastor of mine speculated that the Restrainer was Michael the archangel.

My first exposure to eschatology was dispensationalism. My teacher said the Restrainer was the Holy Spirit, who departed the earth at the Rapture.

He took the position that since the Holy Spirit was gone, no one could be saved during the Tribulation.

Has that changed? Now, I see some who say that people can be saved in that time.
Seems to me the dispies can't get their act together and keep changing the definitions.

 

[Darrell C]

As far as I can tell, I think we are pretty much agreed on this. I think. At any rate, I don't say that David was ever justified by Law. He was saved by grace through faith, just as we are. His faith looked ahead - just as ours look back - to salvation in Christ.

We probably are in agreement...lol, sometimes splitting the proverbial hair can obscure the topic.

However, we can, from Hebrews, see that salvation from a point of remission went from incomplete, to complete. It was necessary for all to be accomplished, primarily, that Christ should die. While man was declared just prior to this, that sin required payment, just as our death row inmate awaits it. Until he is put to death, the penalty of law is not fulfilled. And until Christ died on the Cross, the penalty had not been paid.

We often say that David was "saved on credit," and that is true. However, just as every man, before the New Birth, has available to him that payment, Christ's death, until they receive Christ, they are still guilty, and payment awaits. Should man die in that state, as I am sure you would agree, he himself will pay for his sin.

This is a great topic, though, and I appreciate the response, AT.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Back to the identity of the Restrainer:
A former pastor of mine speculated that the Restrainer was Michael the archangel.

My first exposure to eschatology was dispensationalism. My teacher said the Restrainer was the Holy Spirit, who departed the earth at the Rapture.

He took the position that since the Holy Spirit was gone, no one could be saved during the Tribulation.

Has that changed? Now, I see some who say that people can be saved in that time.
Seems to me the dispies can't get their act together and keep changing the definitions.

Hello Tom, I would first say that you might be interested in looking at the views of "Progressive Dispensationalists." I have debated with a few, and they present a very logical and well reasoned defense for their beliefs, which in many points echo those of traditional Dipensationalists.

Of course I am in disagreement over several of their views, but some of them are excellent in the presentation of their beliefs. Great fun, really, to talk with them.

Back to the identity of the Restrainer:
A former pastor of mine speculated that the Restrainer was Michael the archangel.

There are two similar threads...lol, and I have gotten confused I think as to who said what.

This belief sounds ridiculous at first glance, however, having debated with PD who hold to a similar belief, I can tell you they present a scriptural presentation that, if not careful, is very convincing.

Just for the record, I believe that Michael is an Angel, and is to be distinguished from the Lord Jesus Christ.


My first exposure to eschatology was dispensationalism. My teacher said the Restrainer was the Holy Spirit, who departed the earth at the Rapture.


While the influence of God in His Church certainly has an impact upon the earth, this would be in error, in my humble view. God is omnipresent, and therefore it is an impossibility that He should "go out of the world."

The restraint is more focused upon the Antichrist himself. God will determine when he, under the power of Satan, will come upon this world to work the power of Satan and to be the "head" of those that will perish through unbelief and rejection of Christ.

God's mercy threads through the entirety of scripture, and we see many instances where God withdraws both opportunity and blessing which gives man time to repent.

He took the position that since the Holy Spirit was gone, no one could be saved during the Tribulation.

Which would be in direct contradiction to scripture itself, since we do see men saved in the Tribulation Period. I think it quite possible that this teacher had just not done his howework, and was appointed to an important position when he should not have been. Though, in his defense, I will say that teaching is the greatest way to learn, and we all have to start somewhere, right? It could be that he filled a position that no-one else would, so it would be unnecessarily severe to judge him too harshly for his inexperience.

Even if he had been at it for years...lol.

Has that changed? Now, I see some who say that people can be saved in that time.

How some individuals teach concerning this passage, yes, positions change as more scripture is added to the mix. BUt as far as the passage itself is concerned, it has not changed since first being committed to the Apostle. How we interpret the Apostlle's specific teaching is what is in view.

That people are saved in the Tribulation can be seen in Revelation, the Tribulation Martyrs being a good example (Revelation 20).

Consider:



Revelation 6:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


Notice that a specific cry for those upon the earth (currently residing there) is made. They ask when "their blood" will be avenged, and are told to wait. Would we think that this cry for vengeance would be for those that had not put them to death? It is possible, I believe, but I believe that these are they that come out of the Tribulation. Also, the reference to those that will be killed in like manner, which we would conclude will happen during the events described in Revelation, seem to indicate that men will be saved during this time.

Admittedly it could be a general cry, meaning, those upon the earth may not be the ones that slew these particular "souls." But as we read on, it is not unreasonable that this may be the case.


After the sealing of the 144,000, we read this:



Revelation 7:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.




13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Again, admittedly, nothing conclusive. However, the use of the term "great tribulation" here is a good indication that the Tribulation itself is referred to. That doesa not preclude that this is a general reference, as all that have been slain for the word of certainly went through "tribulation."

But the focus is on the fact that they are in heaven with God, and we can say with certainty that the Tribulation is in full swing when these "souls" are seen by John.

We can see that it is reasonable to understand that a diversity of peoples are represented here, reasonable to believe that some, at least, have died in the Tribulation, and, when we read this:


Revelation 20

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


...we can see that it is reasonable to believe that these were saved in the Tribulation, based upon their not worshipping beasat, a specific person during the Tribulation described in Revelation, and had not received his mark, a specific event described within the Tribulation.

Seems to me the dispies can't get their act together and keep changing the definitions

I don't know about "dispies," but I can attest that Progressive Dispensationalists have "their act together," and are a difficult group to debate with, because of this. Of course, not all of them...lol, but some do a good job of presenting the scriptural basis for their beliefs.

God bless.

 

[JesusFan]

We can put all men in the category you mentioned? David, then, died not fully forgiven? I don't think you meant to say this.

The cross has power to work both ways in time, fully justifying in the OT, just as does for us in the present. I assume you believe this too.

the Cross of Christ was the atonement that God knew would be the One to finally pay the sin debt 'in full", is the means of grace that he used in His dealings with man in both old/new Covenants, BUT

men saved same way in both Covenants with god, by His grace, applied to us through faith, BUT those under the new Covenant have a MUCH better covenant, as we are sealed and filled with the HS permantly, something OT believers did not experience!

That sealing is earnest pledge, down payment, that God will pay us in full at the rapture or Second Coming, when our frail physical bodies become immortal and physical changed to being glorified!

 

[Darrell C]

the Cross of Christ was the atonement that God knew would be the One to finally pay the sin debt 'in full", is the means of grace that he used in His dealings with man in both old/new Covenants, BUT

men saved same way in both Covenants with god, by His grace, applied to us through faith, BUT those under the new Covenant have a MUCH better covenant, as we are sealed and filled with the HS permantly, something OT believers did not experience!

That sealing is earnest pledge, down payment, that God will pay us in full at the rapture or Second Coming, when our frail physical bodies become immortal and physical changed to being glorified!

Agreed.

Much is "better" under the New Covenant.

The writer of Hebrews makes that clear. See here for a quick look at "better" in Hebrews.

Hope all have a blessed day.

God bless.

 

[beameup]

Concerning the "Restrainer," I also believe this to be the Holy Spirit.
He is not taken out of the world, but out of the way.
God bless.

How did the Holy Spirit "function" prior to the Day of Pentecost in relations with man?

How did the Holy Spirit "function" following the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2)?

The "function" of the Holy Spirit will revert back to the prior state (prior to Pentecost)
following the removal of the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ from the earth.

That's the way I picture the removal of the "Restrainer".

PS: I plan on being at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb when "all HELL breaks loose" on the earth.

 

[JesusFan]

How did the Holy Spirit "function" prior to the Day of Pentecost in relations with man?

How did the Holy Spirit "function" following the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2)?

The "function" of the Holy Spirit will revert back to the prior state (prior to Pentecost)
following the removal of the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ from the earth.

That's the way I picture the removal of the "Restrainer".

PS: I plan on being at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb when "all HELL breaks loose" on the earth.

the HS is Omnipresent, so He cannot be removed fully from earth, but I take it that the HS restrains through the Church, Body of Christ upon the earth, that we are the salt to society...

We are removed as the corporate Body/Church on earth, then He goes back to like in OT times to save peoples...

Not sealing like today, but saving as in OT times...

 

[beameup]

the HS is Omnipresent, so He cannot be removed fully from earth, but I take it that the HS restrains through the Church, Body of Christ upon the earth, that we are the salt to society...

We are removed as the corporate Body/Church on earth, then He goes back to like in OT times to save peoples...

Not sealing like today, but saving as in OT times...

Exactly. People will be able to "lose their salvation" during the Tribulation.
By "losing" I am sure that they will be presented with either death (martyrdom) or receiving "the mark".

I am of the opinion that "the mark" involves much more than just a "symbol",
but in fact may very well involve a genetic component (gene-splicing), rendering the person
less than pure Human and thus ineligible for salvation. As in the days of Noah... - Gen 6

 

[Darrell C]

How did the Holy Spirit "function" prior to the Day of Pentecost in relations with man?

Personally, I believe that He ministered in the lives the same way He does today, though, one primary difference would be that God has always ministered according to the knowledge He has revealed to man at that particular time.

For example, if we look at the accounts given from Adam to Moses, we would almost come to a conclusion that the Holy Spirit was not ministering to man...at all. Of course we forget sometimes that God would in fact manifest to men in physical forms (such as to Abarham on the plains of Mamre accompanied by two angels, Gen. 18) whereas today we think that men are crazy if they say they have seen God (and for the record I do not really think that at this time God is manifesting to men physically).

But, because we at times distinguish between God in the three revealed "Persons" which is correct, we sometimes forget that God is One God, and when He ministers to man period, whether in physical form, in Spirit, or we think of Him as Father...He is still God.

From Moses to Christ, God ministered through and according to the revelation found within the Law to man. We see what we consider Christophanies, but for the most part, I would think it safe to say that again, God ministered to the hearts of man much as He does today. God's will was revealed to man, and God demanded obedience, though He knew that there was lacking in man something that would bring about that obedience: that is the clear conscience of sin, brought about only through the revelation of the knowledge of Christ, in particular, that Christ had died that we might live.

Coupled with that knowledge was given the Comforter, and the indwelling of the Comforter, that man might be able to understand that knowledge, take it to heart, and thereby have an unshakeable faith that in fact forgiveness, and the removal of the debt owed could be trusted.

We see this ministry in part, in my view, in some of the Old Testament saints. We see David plead the God not take His Holy Spirit from him, and while it is very possible that David spoke of "spirit" in the sense that he referred more to "the intent of man," rather than God Himself, I think that David spoke under inspiration a truth that in all probability he himself did not understand. If Christ's own disciples dd not understand this when they were told clearly by Christ, I think it probable that David did not fully understand as well.

Another aspect of the ministry of the Holy Spirit under the First Covenant was that as of yet, the promise that God would "put His Spirit within man and cause them to walk in His statutes and ordinances" had not yet been given, and would not be given until after Christ's death and return to Heaven.

He said "I must go, or the Comforter cannot come."


So we see that while we know the Holy Spirit ministered in the lives of men during all of man's history, we see differences according to the revelation man had available. That is my view anyway.

We see the Spirit of God leave King Saul. And I was going to just give a link, but consider:



1 Samuel 16:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

14But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.


What is worthy of note is that despite David's later sins "the Spirit of the Lord came upon David...from that day forward."

And while David cries out, "Take not thy Spirit from me," we never see anywhere that this happens, and David seems to be at peace with God on his deathbed.

But Saul is another story.

And what is important to understand I think is that while God may have departed from certain people, under the New Covenant...that is not a possibility. He does not depart from those He indwells today.

How did the Holy Spirit "function" following the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2)?

lol...I think maybe I expressed my views above...perhaps?

The "function" of the Holy Spirit will revert back to the prior state (prior to Pentecost)
following the removal of the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ from the earth.

For the most part I agree, though I would distinguish that as I believe that God has ministered to man according to the revelation He has provided Him, I think this will be true in both the Tribulation as well as The Millennial Kingdom.

That men will be indwelled by God will not change, I think, particularly in the MK, as in the kingdom the very promises that we enjoy through the New Covenant will at this time be fulfilled in the life of National Israel, when God;s promises to them see their fulfillment in the earthly sense in this very kingdom. All that enter the kingdom will be saved, even as we are today, and that is through the everlasting Gospel which is that Christ has died for man's sin, was buried, and rose again the third day.

I do not particularly believe that when a born again believer is saved in the Tribulation that God will depart from them, but that they will be born again and indwelt by the Spirit of God like as we.

The difference I do see, though, is that the Church will have been at this point glorified, and those that live through the Tribulation will not until, possibly death, possibly made to wait until the end of the MK, be glorified.

That's the way I picture the removal of the "Restrainer".

In the text in view the restraint is focused, I think, to the coming of the Antichrist. As I said before that I believe that the Church does have a restraining factor in the world (which has greatly diminished, I think), such as speaking out over abortion and things of that nature, however, we do not restrain the coming of Antichrist except that it is not until our removal that he comes. So if you look at it as the Antichrist cannot come until the Church leaves, it could be viewed that way. But, we do not restrain the Antichrist, and while it may be said we lessen apostasy through ministry, we do not restrain apostasy either, nor could we restrain a God allowed apostasy such as will be the case when the Tribulation begins, which will certainly have it's foundations being built even before we are caught up.

PS: I plan on being at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb when "all HELL breaks loose" on the earth.

As do I.

Sorry for the length, hope I do not bore you tears with my rambling.

God bless.