Questions for Calvinists

[Moriah]

These quotes I offered you..the teaching.....I think you cannot even begin to touch the teaching..

Let me see you work through the quotes I posted! Show me how calvinists are so wrong...here are real calvinists for you to "correct"...not strawman calvinists that you and others speak about....

Show it then.....do not avoid it. If you read the quotes...you might just say; I never saw this before...that is also an acceptable response.

I will gladly respond to any quote you offer.....

You do not respond to hardly anything that I question you with to try to explain. Sometimes you only say that I do not understand Calvinism, or you say no Calvinists believe that. You have no real defense for your false doctrines, you can only grasp at straws, trying to hang on to something you were so sure was truth, you fell in love with the knowledge you thought you had gained. No one should except anything unless the Bible plainly says, “No man can believe in Jesus after learning the truth,” or, “The Holy Spirit causes people to believe.”

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Sure i did...the need to be born from abovejn 3:3-11

Let us look what the Calvinists say about regeneration. R.C. Sproul, one of today's chief spokesmen for Calvinism, says that "regeneration" occurs when we were dead in trepasses and are made alive together with Christ:

"The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: '...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)' (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' " [emphasis added] (Sproul, Regeneration Precedes Faith).

Let us look at a verse that speaks of the same thing so therefore the following words are about "regeneration":

"When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions" (Col.2:12-13).

We can also see that this regeneration does not happen until a person has his transgressions or sins forgiven--"having forgiven us all our transgressions."

We also know that no one has their sins forgiven until they believe:

"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43; NIV).

Common sense dictates that since no one has their sins forgiven until they believe then no one is regenerated until they believe. But the Calvinists teach that regeneration precedes faith.

jerry...still waiting for you to attempt to deal with the quotes I offered

You offered many quotes and I do not have the time to deal with them all. Give me what you think is your best evidence from the Bible that supports your idea and I will respond to it.

 

[Moriah]

Moriah,
I like and agree with all the fine verses you quoted:thumbs::thumbs:
thanks for sharing them!

i offer you the same challenge I offered jerry
I quoted from three calvinist teachers.....respond to the quotes if you feel you can.....feel free to read and learn also:thumbs:

Why do you not respond to what all I post?

 

[Moriah]

Quote:
Why, according to Calvinists, did God not predestine Jesus' hometown people to save? Why single out the Lord’s hometown? Surely, Jesus preached to them and wanted to save and heal them. Is it for reasons that Calvinists teach, that it is just for God’s own pleasure that He just did not want to save people that grew up near Prophets? What luck is that, to be singled out by God to go to Hell, just because you lived in the hometown of the Prophets

Iconoclast: Could you show any calvinist that says this????I have never read this.
show me one that I could read


You say you have never heard that. So, then, you tell me why God choose some to save and why He choose not to save the others, but instead for them to go to Hell.

 

[Iconoclast]

jerry
the quotes are really good...when you have time read them over.

My best response to your question,,,,and i think what you miss is that christians have been co-crucified with Christ....

20with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;

The Holy Spirit when we are brought from death to life quickens us.....

When Christ died on the cross, and said.....IT IS FINISHED.....he died a covenant death for the elect...the children the Father gave to Him.

At pentecost the church as an institution was Spirit baptized...like when the Shekinah glory came into Solomons temple.

Spirit Baptism places the elect In Saving Union with Christ.

At regeneration...this Spirit baptism is put to our account as we are indwelt by the Spirit and sealed. This is the work of God in being born from above!

Of course once this takes place...we repent and believe.

That we have been co-crucified with Christ pays our sin debt,and Union with Christ assures that the elect will perservere un til the day of Christ.
Jesus is the author and finisher of our God given faith....

So..off course..believers go on believing...because the Spirit continually works in us.

the quotes I offered show many verses that show this very thing.

the verses you post about believing are fine...but this is the result of the unseen work of the Spirit..jn 3:8

 

[Moriah]

jerry
the quotes are really good...when you have time read them over.

My best response to your question,,,,and i think what you miss is that christians have been co-crucified with Christ....


The Holy Spirit when we are brought from death to life quickens us.....

When Christ died on the cross, and said.....IT IS FINISHED.....he died a covenant death for the elect...the children the Father gave to Him.

At pentecost the church as an institution was Spirit baptized...like when the Shekinah glory came into Solomons temple.

Spirit Baptism places the elect In Saving Union with Christ.

At regeneration...this Spirit baptism is put to our account as we are indwelt by the Spirit and sealed. This is the work of God in being born from above!

Of course once this takes place...we repent and believe.

That we have been co-crucified with Christ pays our sin debt,and Union with Christ assures that the elect will perservere un til the day of Christ.
Jesus is the author and finisher of our God given faith....

So..off course..believers go on believing...because the Spirit continually works in us.

the quotes I offered show many verses that show this very thing.

the verses you post about believing are fine...but this is the result of the unseen work of the Spirit..jn 3:8

Non-Calvinists know why God does not save all. Tell us why Calvinists believe God does not save all, since all are sinners. Tell us why.

 

[Iconoclast]

Quote:
Why, according to Calvinists, did God not predestine Jesus' hometown people to save? Why single out the Lord’s hometown? Surely, Jesus preached to them and wanted to save and heal them. Is it for reasons that Calvinists teach, that it is just for God’s own pleasure that He just did not want to save people that grew up near Prophets? What luck is that, to be singled out by God to go to Hell, just because you lived in the hometown of the Prophets

Iconoclast: Could you show any calvinist that says this????I have never read this.
show me one that I could read


You say you have never heard that. So, then, you tell me why God choose some to save and why He choose not to save the others, but instead for them to go to Hell.

Moriah, ok that is a fair question..lets see what scripture tells us.

1]God has an eternal plan or purpose

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

2] God's plan was put in place before the world was;

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

We are told that this plan or Covenant of Redemption was according to His own purpose and grace.......

Moriah...God is Holy , and perfect...so we have no reason to question His Holy purpose.....like when he answers Job in Job 38-39....His purpose was before we are even created.....He has it all under control....
that is why I said you need to learn the lesson of Daniel 4:33-35

God speaks of this purpose when He explained the calling of Israel:

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; 10And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

11Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

12Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:

God deals with man on the basis of his covenant. His oath, His promise.

he does not have to choose any....but He chooses to save a multitude to the praise of His glory.

 

[Moriah]

Moriah, ok that is a fair question..lets see what scripture tells us.

1]God has an eternal plan or purpose


2] God's plan was put in place before the world was;



We are told that this plan or Covenant of Redemption was according to His own purpose and grace.......

Moriah...God is Holy , and perfect...so we have no reason to question His Holy purpose.....like when he answers Job in Job 38-39....His purpose was before we are even created.....He has it all under control....
that is why I said you need to learn the lesson of Daniel 4:33-35

God speaks of this purpose when He explained the calling of Israel:


God deals with man on the basis of his covenant. His oath, His promise.

he does not have to choose any....but He chooses to save a multitude to the praise of His glory.

Were you being deceitful deliberately, when you said you never heard a Calvinist say what I said Calvinists say? I said Calvinists do not know why God saves some and not others, and that Calvinists say God saves some and not others because He just does whatever pleases Him.

Admit plainly and say, "Calvinists do NOT know why God saves some and not others."


Calvinists DO NOT know why God saves some and not others, BECAUSE they do not obey God, they add to God's word, thus nullifying God's word. If you would believe in, and obey only God's word, then you would know too why he saves some and not others.

I know why God saves some and not others.

 

[Iconoclast]

Non-Calvinists know why God does not save all. Tell us why Calvinists believe God does not save all, since all are sinners. Tell us why.

he does not have to save any...that is why it is called mercy
Gen 18:25 says the god of all the earth will do right....Do you believe this? I do.
here is how some have explained it;

Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

 

[Iconoclast]

Were you being deceitful deliberately, when you said you never heard a Calvinist say what I said Calvinists say? I said Calvinists do not know why God saves some and not others, and that Calvinists say God saves some and not others because He just does whatever pleases Him.

Admit plainly and say, "Calvinists do NOT know why God saves some and not others."


Calvinists DO NOT know why God saves some and not others, BECAUSE they do not obey God, they add to God's word, thus nullifying God's word. If you would believe in, and obey only God's word, then you would know too why he saves some and not others.

I know why God saves some and not others.

moriah...you really do not know what calvinists believe...here is something for you to read and learn;

http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

Please read and study...I will answer your questions based on what you read here.....this is more what calvinists believe.
Calvinists believe what God says....I think you have received wrong teaching,so most of what I say,you resist.

 

[Moriah]

he does not have to save any...that is why it is called mercy

Iconoclast,

You said, "he does not have to save any...that is why it is called mercy." Tell me, how, does, that, explain, why,God, saves, some, but, not, others?

You do not know why, nor can you know why, because God reveals Himself to those who obey Him. John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

What a powerful, and beautiful scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast,

You said, "he does not have to save any...that is why it is called mercy." Tell me, how, does, that, explain, why,God, saves, some, but, not, others?

You do not know why, nor can you know why, because God reveals Himself to those who obey Him. John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

What a powerful, and beautiful scripture.

I will excuse this poor post:

You do not know why, nor can you know why

because of your ignorance of Divine truth...you cannot deal with any quote or scripture at this time ..so you are forced to try to bring down others who know Him...and know things you do not.
I have answered you many times over...but you cannot understand the truth.
I know it is frustrating to you...try reading and learning with the quotes and links I have offered you...instead of seeking to elevate yourself above anyone who answers you.... the fact that you have failed to answer ,or even read correctly the posts is troubling.....

you might just have a reading comprehension problem:thumbs:

re-read 207...and 209...
You might not like or agree with my response ...but to say I have not answered you is a lie.

 

[Moriah]

I will excuse this poor post:



because of your ignorance of Divine truth...you cannot deal with any quote or scripture at this time ..so you are forced to try to bring down others who know Him...and know things you do not.
I have answered you many times over...but you cannot understand the truth.
I know it is frustrating to you...try reading and learning with the quotes and links I have offered you...instead of seeking to elevate yourself above anyone who answers you.... the fact that you have failed to answer ,or even read correctly the posts is troubling.....

you might just have a reading comprehension problem:thumbs:

I can tell you why God saves some and not others, but you will not believe it, you will not believe the answer because you follow the words of man, which are rubbish.

 

[Moriah]

Calvinists try to tell Christians that we really do believe the same in the basics. No way is it true that there is no real difference. The spirit that Calvinists bring is a different spirit, changing the meaning of many of God’s words, giving a strange and bizarre mist over many scriptures, in fact, over the whole message.

Read what Jesus says here…

John 16:27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

Calvinists believe not what Jesus plainly says here, Calvinists believe Jesus is really saying, “No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me after being made to believe that I came from God.”

 

[Moriah]

Calvinists read with their lips this--- John 16:27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

But in their heart they hear this--- “No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me after being made to believe that I came from God.”


"'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

 

[Winman]

Iconoclast said;

At regeneration...this Spirit baptism is put to our account as we are indwelt by the Spirit and sealed. This is the work of God in being born from above!

Of course once this takes place...we repent and believe.

This is the exact OPPOSITE of what scripture says.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter said a man must first repent and believe (because only true believers are allowed to be baptized- Acts 8:37), and afterwards they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Once again Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of what the scriptures say.

 

[plain_n_simple]

Iconoclast said;
At regeneration...this Spirit baptism is put to our account as we are indwelt by the Spirit and sealed. This is the work of God in being born from above!

Of course once this takes place...we repent and believe.


This is the exact OPPOSITE of what scripture says.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter said a man must first repent and believe (because only true believers are allowed to be baptized- Acts 8:37), and afterwards they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Once again Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of what the scriptures say.

Amazing, to teach opposite the Holy word of God and be prideful about it too, I pity the Calvins.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

At regeneration...this Spirit baptism is put to our account as we are indwelt by the Spirit and sealed. This is the work of God in being born from above!

Of course once this takes place...we repent and believe.

You have the receiving of the Spirit taking place before faith. And you still have not answered Paul's words where he makes it plain that the Spirit is received as a result of faith:

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal.3:2).

 

[Iconoclast]

Moriah,

Calvinists try to tell Christians that we really do believe the same in the basics. No way is it true that there is no real difference. The spirit that Calvinists bring is a different spirit, changing the meaning of many of God’s words, giving a strange and bizarre mist over many scriptures, in fact, overCalvinists try to tell Christians the whole message.

Calvinists try to tell Christians

Calvinists are christians...no matter if a scoffer like you denies this.As a matter of fact..your inability to welcome truth...does show a different spirit, that is true.:thumbsup:
You cannot respond in a meaningful way to any of the scriptures offered.I understand completely. A person apart from the Spirit of God cannot understand, they have a natural inability......
One one hand it is disappointing when someone will not examine truth...but on the other hand I am glad we do not agree at all......truth and error cannot co-exist well....
You are welcome to believe your false ideas...I will shake the dust off my feet.Your blood be upon your own head.
Being an accuser of the brethren is not a fruit of the Spirit...that lets me know where this attack comes from:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast said;



This is the exact OPPOSITE of what scripture says.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter said a man must first repent and believe (because only true believers are allowed to be baptized- Acts 8:37), and afterwards they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Once again Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of what the scriptures say.

Winman. I offered three quotes on this topic.....feel free to try to answer the teaching in those quotes which give biblical understanding ...Jerry and moriah are unable to begin...perhaps you would like to try? it should not be a problem if as you say they are opposite to scripture.