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Questions for Calvinists

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Iconoclast

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Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.

Does the scripture say the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard were not given faith to combine it? No, the scriptures do not say that. The scripture says “THEY” did not combine it with faith.

In addition, consider Deuteronomy 1:32 In spite of this, you did not trust in the LORD your God,

Yes......they were spiritually dead.....did not believe.....did not have saving faith....
That is why God has to give any unbeliever his Spirit, a new heart....for them to get saved...jew or gentile
re-read the entire thread..maybe you will see it.:thumbs::thumbs:
 

Moriah

New Member
Yes......they were spiritually dead.....did not believe.....did not have saving faith....
That is why God has to give any unbeliever his Spirit, a new heart....for them to get saved...jew or gentile
re-read the entire thread..maybe you will see it.

That scripture is about those God does not save.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I told you before, that Jesus Christ Himself has saved me, personally. You cannot say anything that would cause me to believe that I am blind. Now, start answering. Give the scripture that says God gives His Spirit to unbelievers, to make them believe.

Moriah,
I take anyone at their profession. you profess that Jesus saved you..that is wonderful....continue to grow in grace and knowledge in that case:thumbs:

Now, start answering. Give the scripture that says God gives His Spirit to unbelievers, to make them believe

I have answered you all along...but you cannot welcome my answers...

I am not certain as to why.....I have to suggest that in your zeal to join Team
Anti-Cal Jihad...
you along with others are blinded in your anti-cal zeal.
Then as you accuse cals ...your pride is increased and you accuse cals of doing satans work????
This grieves the Spirit of God...God resists the proud....so truth is not being opened to you,until you back off attacking AMYG , and any others who have been answering you.

Re -read the thread...when you learn the lesson of daniel 4..then you also will make progress;
31While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

32And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

33The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

34And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou
?

36At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me;
:wavey:
 

Jerry Shugart

New Member
Almost every calvinist I know or have read...believes this all happens at the exact same time.
Yes, but they say that the receiving of the Spirit happens "logically" before a person believes. But here we see that the Spirit is received as a result of believing:

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal.3:2).
What the bible clearly teaches is that God will cause ,or enable dead sinners to believe...
Here we can see that it is a result of believing that a person receives life:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

That directly contradicts the teaching of Calvinism that receiving life precedes faith.
 

Moriah

New Member
Moriah,
I take anyone at their profession. you profess that Jesus saved you..that is wonderful....continue to grow in grace and knowledge in that case:thumbs:



I have answered you all along...but you cannot welcome my answers...

I am not certain as to why.....I have to suggest that in your zeal to join Team
Anti-Cal Jihad...
you along with others are blinded in your anti-cal zeal.
Then as you accuse cals ...your pride is increased and you accuse cals of doing satans work????
This grieves the Spirit of God...God resists the proud....so truth is not being opened to you,until you back off attacking AMYG , and any others who have been answering you.

Re -read the thread...when you learn the lesson of daniel 4..then you also will make progress;

No, YOU give the answers here, or stop preaching falseness.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jerry,

That directly contradicts the teaching of Calvinism that receiving life precedes faith.

No..not at all. Your misunderstanding a verse does not contradict anything but the truth.

jerry could you respond to post# 173 ???
 
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Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No, YOU give the answers here, or stop preaching falseness.

The answers are all in the thread...no sense giving any more verses,until you understand these.....I think I might be waiting awhile for that to take place:sleeping_2::sleeping_2:
 

Moriah

New Member
That is the work of God,and the teaching of Calvinism.

Calvinists add to God's Word, which nullifies God's word.

we are not afraid of Election, Predestination,Foreknowledge,Covenant...it's in the bible..we believe it all..knowing we serve a Holy God who always does right!

Iconoclast,

Tell me, why do you think, according to your Calvinist beliefs, that God elected, and predestined the people in Jesus' hometown to not believe in Jesus? Why do you think God did not want any of them saved?

In Mark 6:4, Jesus says,"Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

The scriptures say that Jesus could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.

Why, according to Calvinists, did God not predestine Jesus' hometown people to save? Why single out the Lord’s hometown? Surely, Jesus preached to them and wanted to save and heal them. Is it for reasons that Calvinists teach, that it is just for God’s own pleasure that He just did not want to save people that grew up near Prophets? What luck is that, to be singled out by God to go to Hell, just because you lived in the hometown of the Prophets! What does the Word say? The Word says, "And he was amazed at their lack of faith." Why would Jesus be amazed at their lack of faith, if Jesus knew the Holy Spirit would have to save them first to cause them to have faith, as Calvinists claim? Could it not be that the people in the Prophets town did not have faith because they thought the Prophets were just ordinary people? Please, let us reason together.
 

Jerry Shugart

New Member
No..not at all. Your misunderstanding a verse does not contradict anything but the truth.
It is one thing to merely "say" that I misunderstand certain verses but it is an entirely different thing to "prove" it. You have proved nothing.
jerry could you respond to post# 173 ???
I did but you obviously do not want to talk about these points where you said the following:
Almost every calvinist I know or have read...believes this all happens at the exact same time.
Yes, but they say that the receiving of the Spirit happens "logically" before a person believes. But here we see that the Spirit is received as a result of believing:

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal.3:2).
What the bible clearly teaches is that God will cause ,or enable dead sinners to believe...
Here we can see that it is a result of believing that a person receives life:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

That directly contradicts the teaching of Calvinism that receiving life precedes faith.

Why will you not discuss these verses, Iconoclast?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes, but they say that the receiving of the Spirit happens "logically" before a person believes. But here we see that the Spirit is received as a result of believing:

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal.3:2).

Here we can see that it is a result of believing that a person receives life:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

That directly contradicts the teaching of Calvinism that receiving life precedes faith.

Jerry,
Did you read what I posted about ezk 34?

here this might help you...from a Baptist Cathechism with Commentary, by W.R.Downing
The necessity of regeneration or the new birth is found in the utter
spiritual impotence of man, the blinding power of the devil, the eternal
redemptive purpose, and the righteous character and omnipotence of God. If
any human being is to be saved or delivered from the reigning power of sin,
his own innate animosity toward God, the blinding power of Satan, and
ultimately delivered from eternal hell, God must initiate the work of salvation
(Isa. 64:6; Matt. 13:3–4, 18–19; Acts 16:14; Rom. 1:18–25; 3:11, 27–21; 8:5–
8; 1 Cor. 2:14; 2 Cor. 4:3–6; Eph. 2:1–10; 4:17–19; Titus 3:5; 1 Jn. 5:19). To
say all this is to declare that salvation is by grace.
Because of the mystery of this Divine operation, the inability of our finite
minds to fully comprehend it, and the great possibility of misunderstanding its
nature, God has been pleased to represent regeneration in human terms, using
figures or metaphors to aid our understanding. Regeneration is described as a
“spiritual birth.” This is the most common designation. Cf. Jn. 1:12–13; 3:3,
5–8; Jas. 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23; 1 Jn. 3:9. As a “birth,” it is mysterious and
miraculous, and so couched in figurative terms. Regeneration is described as a
“quickening” to spiritual life. Regeneration is described as a “heart
transplant.” The Old Testament language of Jer. 31:31–34; Ezk. 11:19–20;
36:25–27, as fulfilled in 2 Cor. 3 and Heb. 8, although couched in Old
Testament symbolic terms, anticipates the New or Gospel Covenant.
157
Regeneration is described as a “translation” from one kingdom to another.
Believers have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness [evil] into the
kingdom of the Son of God’s love (Col. 1:12–13). Regeneration is described
as a “washing.” This “washing” (Titus 3:5) cannot refer to baptism, for this is
a ritual within the realm and scope of human activity and power. Further,
baptism cannot spiritually quicken or cleanse (1 Pet. 3:18–21). This must be
understood symbolically and according to the analogy of faith (Ezk. 36:25–
27).
Regeneration is further described as a “renewing of the Holy Ghost.” This
language is inherent in the language of regeneration (Titus 3:5). It refers to the
restoration of the image of God in man (Col. 3:9–10; Eph. 4:22–24), the
“heart of flesh” (Ezk. 36:25–27), the “new man,” or regenerate personality
(Rom. 6:6). Regeneration is described as a “change of nature” or “character”
(2 Pet. 1:4; Eph. 4:22–24; Col. 3:9–10). These passages refer to the moral
transformation of the personality or the restoration of the image of God in
principle in man. Regeneration is described as a “new creation” (Eph. 2:4–10;
2 Cor. 5:17; 4:3–6). The new life, nature or entity imparted by God is the
creation of the “new man” who corresponds in principle to the moral
character of God.
Finally, regeneration is described as a spiritual “circumcision.” Cf. Deut.
10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:26; Acts 7:51–53 with Rom. 2:28–29; Phil. 3:1–3; Col.
2:10–13. The antitype of circumcision is regeneration. Those in the Old
Covenant were circumcised; those in the New Covenant are regenerated.
Regeneration is thus the covenant–sign or seal of the New or Gospel
covenant. Regeneration, as the antitype of circumcision, is a heart–operation
performed by God alone [“a circumcision made without hands”] in taking
away the preeminence of the flesh, i.e., breaking the reigning power of sin.
Cf. Rom. 6:1–14. See Question 157.
Who or what is the efficient cause of regeneration? The two areas of
theological tension are: first, that one must be spiritually quickened, the mind
and heart must be freed from satanic blindness, the mind–set must be restored,
the natural enmity removed, and the reigning power of sin must be broken
before the sinner can truly understand, believe and savingly respond to the
gospel. Second, the Scriptures imply that the preached Word is instrumental
in the work of regeneration and specifically as to saving faith. We must never
confuse the logical order with a chronological order. What can be consistently
and safely stated is that regeneration occurs in the context of the hearing and
comprehending of the truth of God, and not apart from it (Matt. 28:18–20;
Mk. 16:15; Lk. 24:44; Rom. 10:13–15, 17; 1 Cor. 2:1–5; Eph. 1:3–14; 1
Thess. 1:4–5; 2:13; 2 Thess. 2:13–14). As God has ordained the end—the
salvation of sinners––so he has ordained the means to that end—their
awakening [a saving conviction of sin], renewal [regeneration] and
conversion [repentance and faith] through the preaching of the gospel. Are
you a regenerate person? Do you exemplify the marks of converting grace
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jerry,
here is JL Dagg;
SECTION IV.--REGENERATION.



IN ALL WHO ARE FINALLY SAVED, THE HOLY SPIRIT PRODUCES A GREAT MORAL CHANGE, BY WHICH THEY BECOME INCLINED TO HOLINESS.[121]

In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. Pardon, justification, and adoption, are changes in a man's condition; but if no other change were wrought, the man would remain a slave to sin, and unfit for the service and enjoyment of God. Grace, therefore, does not stop with a mere change of condition, but it effects also that change in the character, without which the individual could not participate in the holy enjoyments of heaven, or be fitted for the society of the blessed.

Various forms of expression are employed in the Scriptures, to denote the change of heart; and they signify it with various shades of meaning.. It is taking away the heart of stone, and giving a heart of flesh;[122] giving a new heart;[123] putting the law in the heart;[124] quickening or making alive;[125] a resurrection from the dead; an illumination;[126] a conversion, or turning back to God.[127] So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature,[128] as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed,[129] as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed. With reference to the mode in which the descendants of Adam come into the world, the change is denominated regeneration;[130] and the subjects of it are said to be born again.[131]

Regeneration is the beginning of sanctification, but the work is not completed at the outset. A new affection is produced in the heart, but it does not govern without opposition. The love of the world, the love of self, and all the carnal appetites and passions, have reigned in the heart; and the power of habit gives them a controlling influence, which is not readily yielded. Hence arises the warfare of which every regenerate man is conscious: the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.[161] In this struggle, the carnal propensities often threaten to prevail, and they would prevail, if God did not give a supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. "Without me," said Jesus, "ye can do nothing."[162] If severed from the living vine, the branches are sapless, fruitless, dead. But "he that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit;"[163] and the Spirit of life from Christ, the head, flows through all the members of his body, and gives and preserves their vitality. This Spirit in them lusteth against the flesh, and enables them to carry on their warfare, and gives them final victory: "He that hath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."[164]
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
jerry
here is J P Boyce

The whole work is thus spoken of, however, because God is operative from the beginning to the end, but this does not prove that he does not operate differently in one part from what he does in the other.

III. The Scripture teaching is that God operates immediately upon the heart to produce the required change, by which it is fitted to receive the truth, and mediately through the word in its reception of that truth.

1. He operates immediately upon the heart to prepare the way for the truth. This is evident

(1.) From the description given of man's spiritual condition.

(a) As spiritually dead. Eph. 2:1.

(b) As blind. Eph. 4:18.

(c) As slaves to sin. John 8:34; Rom. 6:17, 19.

(d) As needing deliverance from the powers of darkness. Col. 1:13.

(e) As incapable of knowing or discerning the things of the Spirit. 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 4:18.

(f) As incapable of changing himself. Jer. 13:23.

(g) As defiled in conscience. Tit. 1:15.

These passages show man in a condition from which he must be rescued even to understand and appreciate the truth of God.

(2.) The Scripture attributes the birth to the will of God exclusively, thus showing that in some aspect it is not to be regarded as due to the reception of the truth. John 1:13.

[For sections (3), (4), (5) and (6), see Hodge's Outlines, p. 451.]

(3.) The influence of the Spirit is distinguished from that of the word. John 6:45, 64, 65; 1 Cor. 2:12-15; 1 Thess. 1:5, 6.

(4.) A divine influence is declared to be necessary for the reception of the truth. Ps. 119:18; Acts 16:14; Eph. 1:17-20.

(5.) Such an internal operation on the heart is attributed to God. Matt. 11:25; Luke 10:21; Phil. 2:13; 2 Thess. 1:11; Heb. 13:21.

(6.) The nature of this influence is evidently different from that effected by the truth. Eph. 1:19; 3:7; 2 Tim. 2:25.

(7.) This influence is spoken of as a preparation of the heart for the truth; which, therefore, must be distinct from the truth or its reception. Luke 8:8, 15; Acts 16:14.

This preparation of the heart comes from God. 1 Chron. 29:18, 19; Ps. 119:18; Prov. 16:1; Acts 16:14; Rom. 9:23.

2. The Spirit acts mediately through the word.

(1.) He inspired that word and sends it forth for the accomplishment of the ends designed. John 14:16; 2 Tim. 3:16.

(2.) He aids the ministry and others in making it known. 1 Cor. 4:7; 2 Thess. 3:1.

To the extent that these are his agents he uses the word.

(3.) The instrument thus used is in itself effective as truth. Heb. 4:12. Therefore, Christians are commanded in their spiritual warfare to take the word of God as the sword of the Spirit. Eph. 6:17. It is, however, made especially so to the heart prepared for it by his illuminating influences, which reveal its beauties and its suitableness, and by the aid of the memory which recalls, and the conscience which applies, and the affections which lay hold upon it. 2 Tim. 3:15, 16, 17.

(4.) Christians are, therefore, said to be "brought forth, (James 1:18), by the word of truth," because that is the seed sown in the prepared ground through which they are led by repentance and faith to union with Christ and sonship of God
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Moriah,
Tell me, why do you think, according to your Calvinist beliefs, that God elected, and predestined the people in Jesus' hometown to not believe in Jesus? Why do you think God did not want any of them saved?

In Mark 6:4, Jesus says,"Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."




Why, according to Calvinists, did God not predestine Jesus' hometown people to save? Why single out the Lord’s hometown? Surely, Jesus preached to them and wanted to save and heal them. Is it for reasons that Calvinists teach, that it is just for God’s own pleasure that He just did not want to save people that grew up near Prophets? What luck is that, to be singled out by God to go to Hell, just because you lived in the hometown of the Prophets


Could you show any calvinist that says this????I have never read this.
show me one that I could read:confused::confused:
 

Jerry Shugart

New Member
Jerry,
Did you read what I posted about ezk 34?

here this might help you...from a Baptist Cathechism with Commentary, by W.R.Downing
I did not come on this thread to discuss quotes from others. Can you not think for yourself?
Almost every calvinist I know or have read...believes this all happens at the exact same time.
Yes, but they say that the receiving of the Spirit happens "logically" before a person believes. But here we see that the Spirit is received as a result of believing:

"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal.3:2).
What the bible clearly teaches is that God will cause ,or enable dead sinners to believe...
Here we can see that it is a result of believing that a person receives life:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

That directly contradicts the teaching of Calvinism that receiving life precedes faith.

Why will you not discuss these verses, Iconoclast?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I did not come on this thread to discuss quotes from others. Can you not think for yourself?

Jerry,
you and others make statements about Calvinists,and calvinism.
it is obvious to me and other calvinists...that you do not really understand the very teaching you are critical of.

I posted three examples of calvinists giving very good clear scriptural teaching.

If you were serious ..you would take a look and see what the teaching is.

I can think for myself...and you have not really responded to my previous post....I offered you EZK 34 the I statements from God..no response from you.

These quotes I offered you..the teaching.....I think you cannot even begin to touch the teaching..so you make a snide comment to me ...

Do you want truth??? or...are you hoping to catch me in my words???

Let me see you work through the quotes I posted! Show me how calvinists are so wrong...here are real calvinists for you to "correct"...not strawman calvinists that you and others speak about....

I will wait for you to work on these quotes.......I say you cannot begin to show any fault in them ,without you displaying error.
You said this.....can you back up your words..or not?
Yes, but they say that the receiving of the Spirit happens "logically" before a person believes

Show it then.....do not avoid it. If you read the quotes...you might just say; I never saw this before...that is also an acceptable response:thumbs:

I will gladly respond to any quote you offer.....
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

That directly contradicts the teaching of Calvinism that receiving life precedes faith.

It does not contradict anything, you still have a dead man doing something before God gives life to Him.

You have lazarus walking out of the grave,before Jesus gives him physical life

You have dead sinners having Spiritual life..be fore they have the Spirit.

This verse about believing does not address the unseen work of the Spirit.
 

Moriah

New Member
jerry
here is J P Boyce

The whole work is thus spoken of, however, because God is operative from the beginning to the end, but this does not prove that he does not operate differently in one part from what he does in the other.

III. The Scripture teaching is that God operates immediately upon the heart to produce the required change, by which it is fitted to receive the truth, and mediately through the word in its reception of that truth.

1. He operates immediately upon the heart to prepare the way for the truth. This is evident

(1.) From the description given of man's spiritual condition.

(a) As spiritually dead. Eph. 2:1.

(b) As blind. Eph. 4:18.

(c) As slaves to sin. John 8:34; Rom. 6:17, 19.

(d) As needing deliverance from the powers of darkness. Col. 1:13.

(e) As incapable of knowing or discerning the things of the Spirit. 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 4:18.

(f) As incapable of changing himself. Jer. 13:23.

(g) As defiled in conscience. Tit. 1:15.

These passages show man in a condition from which he must be rescued even to understand and appreciate the truth of God.

(2.) The Scripture attributes the birth to the will of God exclusively, thus showing that in some aspect it is not to be regarded as due to the reception of the truth. John 1:13.

[For sections (3), (4), (5) and (6), see Hodge's Outlines, p. 451.]

(3.) The influence of the Spirit is distinguished from that of the word. John 6:45, 64, 65; 1 Cor. 2:12-15; 1 Thess. 1:5, 6.

(4.) A divine influence is declared to be necessary for the reception of the truth. Ps. 119:18; Acts 16:14; Eph. 1:17-20.

(5.) Such an internal operation on the heart is attributed to God. Matt. 11:25; Luke 10:21; Phil. 2:13; 2 Thess. 1:11; Heb. 13:21.

(6.) The nature of this influence is evidently different from that effected by the truth. Eph. 1:19; 3:7; 2 Tim. 2:25.

(7.) This influence is spoken of as a preparation of the heart for the truth; which, therefore, must be distinct from the truth or its reception. Luke 8:8, 15; Acts 16:14.

This preparation of the heart comes from God. 1 Chron. 29:18, 19; Ps. 119:18; Prov. 16:1; Acts 16:14; Rom. 9:23.

2. The Spirit acts mediately through the word.

(1.) He inspired that word and sends it forth for the accomplishment of the ends designed. John 14:16; 2 Tim. 3:16.

(2.) He aids the ministry and others in making it known. 1 Cor. 4:7; 2 Thess. 3:1.

To the extent that these are his agents he uses the word.

(3.) The instrument thus used is in itself effective as truth. Heb. 4:12. Therefore, Christians are commanded in their spiritual warfare to take the word of God as the sword of the Spirit. Eph. 6:17. It is, however, made especially so to the heart prepared for it by his illuminating influences, which reveal its beauties and its suitableness, and by the aid of the memory which recalls, and the conscience which applies, and the affections which lay hold upon it. 2 Tim. 3:15, 16, 17.

(4.) Christians are, therefore, said to be "brought forth, (James 1:18), by the word of truth," because that is the seed sown in the prepared ground through which they are led by repentance and faith to union with Christ and sonship of God

How can anyone professing Christ ever have a belief that God did not say. No scripture says God gives the Holy Spirit to unbelievers to make them believe.


Scripture is the ultimate authority.

Psalms 138:2 …for you have exalted above all things
your name and your word.

Deuteronomy 4:2; 5:32, Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19 warn against adding to or detracting from Scripture.

Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. Deuteronomy 4:2

Deuteronomy 5:32 So be careful to do what the LORD your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left.

"Every word of God is flawless:

he is a shield to those who take refuge

in him.

Do not add to his words,

or he will rebuke you and prove you a

liar.

Proverbs 30:5-6

We are exhorted to check out teaching against Scripture (Isaiah 8:20; Acts 17:11.)

The Bereans of Acts 17:11, "examining the Scriptures daily, to see whether these things were so."

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to the word, they have no light of dawn.
 

Jerry Shugart

New Member
It does not contradict anything, you still have a dead man doing something before God gives life to Him.
You never answered how spiritually dead men can believe the good news of Jesus Christ and as a result of that faith receive life:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

You are confused if you think that spiritually dead men are in the same boat at those who are physically dead and are unable of doing anything at all.

Not only do we know that they can believe the good news of Jesus Christ but we also know that they can "resist the Holy Spirit":

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye" (Acts 7:51).
you and others make statements about Calvinists,and calvinism.
it is obvious to me and other calvinists...that you do not really understand the very teaching you are critical of.
I have read tons of things written by the Calvinists and that is why I am so critical of their teaching.
 
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Iconoclast

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You never answered how spiritually dead men can believe the good news of Jesus Christ and as a result of that faith receive life:

"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

You are confused if you think that spiritually dead men are in the same boat at those who are physically dead and are unable of doing anything at all.

Not only do we know that they can believe the good news of Jesus Christ but we also know that they can "resist the Holy Spirit":

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye" (Acts 7:51).

Sure i did...the need to be born from abovejn 3:3-11
unsaved men always resist the Spirit...those in Acts 7 resisted right into hell.
they of course where non elect! thank you for making my point>
The parallel of physical death...to Spiritual death is valid,as jesus and the apostles used it!

jerry...still waiting for you to attempt to deal with the quotes I offered.:thumbs:
 
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Iconoclast

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Moriah,
I like and agree with all the fine verses you quoted:thumbs::thumbs:
thanks for sharing them!

i offer you the same challenge I offered jerry
I quoted from three calvinist teachers.....respond to the quotes if you feel you can.....feel free to read and learn also:thumbs:
 
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