Questions for Calvinists

[plain_n_simple]

"...if you understand this with psalm 22 and Jn 17....you will understand that what is called calvinism.....is simply the unfolded truth of God's decree and eternal covenant unfolded in time , and understood by the objects of His love.....Jesus taught fully calvinistic teaching..before calvin or any other man ever was born...."

And after God revealed these truths to John Calvin, he went about to kill all those in opposition to it. What a wonderful man full of love. You will know them by thier fruits.

 

[Amy.G]

The Father and Jesus will come to you, NOT BEFORE, but AFTER you love HIM, and those who love Him are the ones who OBEY. The Father and Jesus will make their home with the ones who love and obey Him. When the Father and Jesus make their home with the one who obeys, that is our receiving the Holy Spirit. I am wondering if you will now repent of following falseness, if not, how, how, how are you going to twist what this beautiful and powerful scripture says.

Huh? Which of us loved Jesus before we were saved? Isn't this verse comparing the saved (loves Jesus/obedient) to the lost (doesn't love Jesus/disobeys)?

 

[Moriah]

Huh? Which of us loved Jesus before we were saved? Isn't this verse comparing the saved (loves Jesus/obedient) to the lost (doesn't love Jesus/disobeys)?

You just read the words of Jesus Christ, and you still deny and twist them. How is Jesus talking about the saved and not how we become saved.

 

[Amy.G]

You just read the words of Jesus Christ, and you still deny and twist them. How is Jesus talking about the saved and not how we become saved.

I most certainly do not deny the Lord's words or twist them. You are a very insulting person.

Apparently, we disagree on the interpretation though.

 

[preacher4truth]

The Father and Jesus will come to you, NOT BEFORE, but AFTER you love HIM, and those who love Him are the ones who OBEY.

More error and false teaching from Moriah.

God made the first move, always has. John 3:16 for a basic elementary example. He chooses, He makes the first move in true theology. Man made and humanistic false theology? Well, man makes the first move. Such is false doctrine, which is what you are teaching.

We love him, because he first loved us. 1 John 4:19.

This verse alone proves you're a false teacher.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

There is plenty more.

So nope, Christ first loved us, before we came to Him. He came to us and loved us first.

You sir are a theological trainwreck and your cargo is false teaching.

You've been warned well beyond the Biblical mandate.

 

[Moriah]

I most certainly do not deny the Lord's words or twist them. You are a very insulting person.

Apparently, we disagree on the interpretation though.

How can you or anyone have a different interpretation to this simple and clear scripture?

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

 

[Amy.G]

How can you or anyone have a different interpretation to this simple and clear scripture?

I suppose you're always right in your interpretation?

An unbeliever does not love Jesus. Clearly those who obey Him do it because they love Him. Those that love Him are believers.

 

[Moriah]

More error and false teaching from Moriah.
God made the first move, always has. John 3:16 for a basic elementary example.

How do you ever get that the truth in John 3:16 disproves anything I said? That is deceitful, to quote scripture as if you are disproving something when you are not. How does what I say ever claim that God is not before us?

He chooses, He makes the first move in true theology. Man made and humanistic false theology? Well, man makes the first move. Such is false doctrine, which is what you are teaching.

You are the false teacher. God chooses those who obey. God sent prophets to give His teachings. That is how the people in the Old Testament learned of God. In the New Testament, The Word became flesh and lived among us. Men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit, and by prophetic writings, so that all nations might believe and obey him. THAT is the Word of God. Where does what I say claim men make the first move? My Master sent people to give His message; My Master said to do this and do that; I did as my Master said to do. My Master gave me His Spirit. How does that make me the one making the first move? Stop twisting my words, but more than that, stop twisting the word of God!


2 Peter 1:20-21 says. Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 16:25-27 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

We love him, because he first loved us. 1 John 4:19.

This verse alone proves you're a false teacher.

If we want to remain in God's love, we have to obey! I only repeat what Jesus says.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he command all people everywhere to repent.

Acts 14 We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. 16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 17 Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy.”

Jesus even went to preach to the spirits in prison, to those who disobeyed long ago.

1 Peter 4:6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Here is more scripture explaining that IF WE LOVE JESUS, WE WILL OBEY WHAT JESUS COMMANDS. AND JESUS WILL ASK THE FATHER TO GIVE US THE HOLY SPIRIT.

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—

Again, Jesus says we receive the Holy Spirit IF we obey!

THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD!

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Christ died for us while we were still sinners. God did not require us to be sinless first, because He knows we cannot stop sinning without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Again, in the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

So nope, Christ first loved us, before we came to Him. He came to us and loved us first.
You sir are a theological trainwreck and your cargo is false teaching.
You've been warned well beyond the Biblical mandate.

God first loved us. Now, to REMAIN in God's love, we are to OBEY.

WE do NOT REMAIN in God’s love if we do not OBEY. Jesus says that HE remains in the Father’s love because HE OBEYS the Father!

John 15:9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[billwald]

How many of you made a logical decision to "believe in" Jesus on the basis of the historical/logical case?

What other subjects have you decided to "believe in" on the basis of a logical argument?

 

[Moriah]

"...if you understand this with psalm 22 and Jn 17....you will understand that what is called calvinism.....is simply the unfolded truth of God's decree and eternal covenant unfolded in time , and understood by the objects of His love.....Jesus taught fully calvinistic teaching..before calvin or any other man ever was born...."

And after God revealed these truths to John Calvin, he went about to kill all those in opposition to it. What a wonderful man full of love. You will know them by thier fruits.

John Calvin had people killed, and people believe in his teachings why?
By the way, notice people become Christians, but then are later taught the doctrines of Calvin.

 

[Moriah]

I suppose you're always right in your interpretation?

An unbeliever does not love Jesus. Clearly those who obey Him do it because they love Him. Those that love Him are believers.

They do not receive His Spirit UNTIL they are believers and obey. That is what the scriptures say.

Nowhere do the scriptures say God gives the Holy Spirit to those who hate God to make them love God, and that is what Calvinists teach!

 

[Iconoclast]

They do not receive His Spirit UNTIL they are believers and obey. That is what the scriptures say.

Nowhere do the scriptures say God gives the Holy Spirit to those who hate God to make them love God, and that is what Calvinists teach!

3Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

4Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?'

5Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

6that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

7`Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

8the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
an you see it?

Jesus even went to preach to the spirits in prison, to those who disobeyed long ago.

Jesus did not go to preach to them.....Noah did...they did not believe in the grace of God and are in hell now

That is insanity. Calvinists believe that God created people without the ability to believe in Him, then, for no known reason, decided for no known reason to save some, and, for some unknown reason decided to send the rest to Hell. Oh, and Calvinists believe God calls ALL MEN to repentance, but knows they really cannot do it. In addition, God held His hand out to people, knowing not only that they would not come, but that they could not come! Again, that is insanity.

This view that you have of God is not describing God at all...but one you have invented. this is a false caricature, but it shows you are clueless about the grace of God, His Covenant, and His people.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
God Has given them[past tense}32and we are His witnesses of these sayings, and the Holy Spirit also, whom God gave to those obeying him.
Amy g was right with her post to you....
Are you going to continue to deny the Word of God

 

[Iconoclast]

"...if you understand this with psalm 22 and Jn 17....you will understand that what is called calvinism.....is simply the unfolded truth of God's decree and eternal covenant unfolded in time , and understood by the objects of His love.....Jesus taught fully calvinistic teaching..before calvin or any other man ever was born...."

And after God revealed these truths to John Calvin, he went about to kill all those in opposition to it. What a wonderful man full of love. You will know them by thier fruits.

Slandering believers does not help you deal with the verses offered.respond to the verses.

 

[Moriah]

3Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'

4Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?'

5Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

6that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.

7`Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

8the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
an you see it?

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

Do you not see that? Jesus said to repent, for the, kingdom, of, heaven, is, near. We do not get the kingdom of heaven until we repent. That is plain and clear. It only gets confusing when people teach falseness. We have to watch our doctrine and ourselves closely. Jesus was telling them to repent, if they were all ready saved and born again, then they would already have the kingdom of heaven! However, Jesus said it was near, this tells you that they could repent without first being in the kingdom, as the falseness you have been teaching, you, and all Calvinists.

Jesus did not go to preach to them.....Noah did...they did not believe in the grace of God and are in hell now

You are wrong. Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison. When you hear the truth and have it explained to you, start believing and obeying. Repent of following falseness.

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison

This view that you have of God is not describing God at all...but one you have invented. this is a false caricature, but it shows you are clueless about the grace of God, His Covenant, and His people.

That is what Calvinists say, that is what Calvinists believe, and that is what Calvinists teach. They do not know why God only saves some and not others. Calvinists say because God can do whatever He wants. However, in His Word, God tells why He saves some and not others, yet Calvinists exchange God’s truth for a lie.

 

[Iconoclast]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

Do you not see that? Jesus said to repent, for the, kingdom, of, heaven, is, near. We do not get the kingdom of heaven until we repent. That is plain and clear. It only gets confusing when people teach falseness. We have to watch our doctrine and ourselves closely. Jesus was telling them to repent, if they were all ready saved and born again, then they would already have the kingdom of heaven! However, Jesus said it was near, this tells you that they could repent without first being in the kingdom, as the falseness you have been teaching, you, and all Calvinists.




You are wrong. Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison. When you hear the truth and have it explained to you, start believing and obeying. Repent of following falseness.

1 Peter 3:18-19 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison




That is what Calvinists say, that is what Calvinists believe, and that is what Calvinists teach. They do not know why God only saves some and not others. Calvinists say because God can do whatever He wants. However, in His Word, God tells why He saves some and not others, yet Calvinists exchange God’s truth for a lie.

Moriah,
Sorry you do not understand the things of God as of yet. You do not respond to jn 3 at all.....so what your post says is that we do not have to be born from above by the Spirit.
As far as repentance

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

repentance like saving faith comes from new birth....

moriah to understand the word of God....in the words of Jesus;

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Work on trying to understand this verse...then we can discuss scripture accurately...as of now you are void of understanding.

to speak of calvinism when you are clueless as to what that teaching is....is very lame and to no profit.

 

[Moriah]

Moriah,
Sorry you do not understand the things of God as of yet. You do not respond to jn 3 at all.....so what your post says is that we do not have to be born from above by the Spirit.

You lie when you say I say we do not have to be born from above by the Spirit. I should stop talking to you now seeing how you continue to twist the truth. What exactly would you like to discuss about John 3 that you think I have not?

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Calvinists do not understand, so they teach falseness. The Gentiles were once excluded and separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world, see Ephesians 2:12. NOW ALL GENTILES AS A PEOPLE ARE GRANTED REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE. That scripture is NOT about select Gentiles, but rather, ALL GENTILES in general.
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
That scripture disproves Calvinism. That scripture shows that ALL Gentiles have the chance to have repentance that leads to eternal life.
Read again Acts 11:18…

As far as repentance

repentance like saving faith comes from new birth....

You will not have new birth until you have faith and obey.

Read again Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

GOD GRANTED EVEN THE GENTILES REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE. Repentance UNTO LIFE, NOT LIFE unto Repentance.

Work on trying to understand this verse...then we can discuss scripture accurately...as of now you are void of understanding.

You just discount what the Word says so you can hold on to falseness. It happens that people can be led astray, if you are not careful, but it is a shame if someone comes to you with the truth and the patience to explain, and you still deny the truth.

Jesus said to repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near! Stop going against Jesus.

 

[Iconoclast]

I quoted Jn 3 to you...and your attempted response was;
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.”

Do you not see that?

Yes I saw that.... I saw that I posted where Jesus says a person MUST....be born from above.....born of the Spirit.....to Enter the Kingdom....I asked you to respond to Jn 3...what Jesus said....

Then what I saw....is you jump out of Jn 3...to mt 17.....without dealing with Jn 3
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

You never address the work of the Spirit.

Jesus said to repent, for the, kingdom, of, heaven, is, near. We do not get the kingdom of heaven until we repent. That is plain and clear.

Yes he did teach that and give that command....but you jump to Mt 4 here completely side stepped the necessity of the new birth...first...then you wonder why you cannot understand.

Jesus said...a person must be born of the Spirit...or they cannot enter...you say...they can enter ...then get the Spirit later on.....would you like to modify your statement?

It only gets confusing when people teach falseness.

Yes... I see that when you try to oppose the truth of God...I see the falseness

It only gets confusing when people teach falseness. We have to watch our doctrine and ourselves closely.

yes it does...so let me post for you a confession of faith...so you can avoid making these false allegations about calvinism...it seems like you have never really read the teaching as every time you present it incorrectly
here for you;

http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

Jesus was telling them to repent,

yes...they were unsaved ...they needed to repent and believe the gospel

if they were all ready saved and born again, then they would already have the kingdom of heaven!

yes..exactly.....they needed to be born again....they did not have the Spirit yet! good...we are making progress.:thumbs:

However, Jesus said it was near,

yes it was....the King was coming to Zion....

this tells you that they could repent without first being in the kingdom,

Wrong......it does not tell anyone that who is grounded and settled in the truth......repentance and faith happen at conversion and entrance into the kingdom by a sovereign work of God

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

God saves us...like this....new birth= translation from death to life.

as the falseness you have been teaching, you, and all Calvinists.

This is your real agenda...you have no desire to ask a question and get an answer...you want to attack what you do not understand...This whole thread is filled with you accusing others of falsehood...when you cannot even begin to explain the teaching of the bible known as calvinism.

That is what Calvinists say, that is what Calvinists believe, and that is what Calvinists teach. They do not know why God only saves some and not others. Calvinists say because God can do whatever He wants. However, in His Word, God tells why He saves some and not others, yet Calvinists exchange God’s truth for a lie.

Hope in your time here on BB God will allow you to welcome His truth:wavey:

 

[Moriah]

Hope in your time here on BB God will allow you to welcome His truth.

I have a powerful testimony. Jesus Christ Himself saved me.

I will take my time to try to explain to you, so that you might not do the devil’s work anymore. That is my hope for you.
In John 3:5, Jesus says no one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit. None can enter the kingdom until one believes and repents first. I take you to Matthew 4 that is where the Lord tells us this fact. Jesus says to repent, because the kingdom of heaven is near. They are not in the kingdom and born again with the Spirit yet, because the kingdom of heaven is not within them yet, no, it is only “near.” Do you not understand that?

Many scriptures tell us people believed first BEFORE receiving the Holy Spirit. Here are scriptures for you to consider carefully…

Some people had a baptism, but their baptism was only with John's baptism. Remember, John's baptism was not with the Holy Spirit. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. Some never even heard about the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1-5 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

Did you see that what Paul said? Paul asked them if they received the Holy Spirit WHEN THEY BELIEVED.
From this passage, one can also see that they repented BEFORE having the Holy Spirit. In addition, one can see that the Holy Spirit was not given until when they believed, and not before to make them believe. Paul does NOT say, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit then believe,” nor did he say, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit so that you could believe.”

You and Calvinists teach that one has the Holy Spirit BEFORE they REPENT, but I have just shown you two scriptures now that show repenting is BEFORE they receive the Holy Spirit.

Now here is the third scripture to show you that one is to repent BEFORE receiving the Holy Spirit. Remember, we cannot be born again until after, or when we receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In this next passage, we see that even after the people accepted the word of God, God did not yet give them the Holy Spirit, not until after Peter and John prayed for them to have the Holy Spirit and placed their hands on them. So you see, they could not of been born again without yet having the Holy Spirit.

Do you not know that one must have the Holy Spirit living in them, and that is when the kingdom of heaven will be WITHIN them? Luke 17:21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

You do not get the kingdom of heaven unless you have the Spirit, and if you do not have the Spirit, then you are not born again. You do not get the Spirit until you believe and repent. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say God gives His Spirit to make us believe, or to make us repent. You call it jumping to Matthew 4, but I take you to what the Lord says in Matthew 4 so that you can see the answer, then I even explained it to you, but you still do not understand.

If Jesus already saved them, gave them His Spirit, and caused them to be born again, then they would already have the kingdom of heaven. However, they must repent first before that. THAT is what Jesus says. You cannot grasp that Truth.

We receive all the things from the Father, after we believe and repent. Show one scripture that says God gives us the Holy Spirit to cause us to believe and repent. You will not find any such scripture because you believe in what man added and took away from God’s Word. This is a frightening fact. More frightening for you since you have been shown the truth but reject it and go against it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

More frightening for you since you have been shown the truth but reject it and go against it.

Oh really....:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Who set you up as God's other son? :tongue3:

 

[Moriah]

Oh really....
Who set you up as God's other son?

Read these scriptures and find out.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- John 1:12

Romans 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Romans 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.

Galatians 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

1 John 3:1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

1 John 3:10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Matthew 12:5 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

Matthew 12:49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers.

The answer to your question... God, the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
Now, do you have any other questions about the previous post of mine? Would you like to discuss the scriptures that rebuke Calvinism?