They believe they are obeying God; however, if they reject Jesus, God does not save them. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to God accept through Jesus. Paul thought he was a believer in God, and Paul thought he was obeying God, as by the Torah and the law. While Paul was trying to obey the law, as in the Old Testament, Paul says he could not stop sinning; he could not until he believed in Jesus and after Jesus gave him the Holy Spirit.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Questions for Calvinists
- Thread starter Moriah
- Start date
- Status
They believe they are obeying God; however, if they reject Jesus, God does not save them. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to God accept through Jesus. Paul thought he was a believer in God, and Paul thought he was obeying God, as by the Torah and the law. While Paul was trying to obey the law, as in the Old Testament, Paul says he could not stop sinning; he could not until he believed in Jesus and after Jesus gave him the Holy Spirit.
savedbymercy
New Member
moriah
I know that !
I know that !
Christos doulos
New Member
My friend. If they truly wanted to be obedient, then would it not stand to reason they wouldn't reject Jesus? Would God just leave them dangling in the wind wanting to obey but can't?
Last edited by a moderator:
preacher4truth
Active Member
I said: Paul is explaining how he WANTED to do good, but could not stop sinning, not without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is another scripture that Calvinists go against, for Calvinists say NNE can even WANT to do good, unless they are already saved.
You said: Another strawman and a false accusation.
My reply: You are the only one here with a straw man. Calvinists and Lutherans believe in total depravity, that no one can believe in God without God first giving the Holy Spirit. However, scripture tells us we have to believe first, then we are given the Holy Spirit.
Obviously you don't know what a strawman is. OK? A strawman is mirepresenting anothers views. In this case your statement that calvinists say man doesn't even want to do good, or however you stated it. That's a strawman, and this is what I was referring to. You misunderstood that.
In short answer, one cannot believe apart from the Spirit. Read on as I continue to address this.
There really is no need for any accusation that Cals go against the Word of God. It's nothing but prattle. For a person with such a high view of man and his abilities to be good, why not practice this yourself? You're living proof that your entire theory here is false.
Also you're pretending here. Nothing you've used in your proof-text theology (which is an errant method by the way) has proven a thing. Along comes "Moriah" some 2000 years later and disproves Bible truth that the reformed believe? Not even close to happening. Simmer down friend. You're as another on here, an arminian, who thinks he's accomplished the same thing.
Learn to use the quote feature, OK? It will help with reading your responses.
To your reply above: Calvinists do correctly believe we cannot believe there is a God - salvifically - without God's enabling Spirit first. See the difference? A lost person can give "mental assent" in believing there is a God. This does nothing to save the soul.
There is a vast difference between "one believing there is a God" and "a regenerate persons" faith. See James for this. One does well to believe there is one God, a lost person can do this. This then would be a person without the assistance of God making mere mental assent to God, as even the demons can do.
On that basis, yes, one cannot believe to the saving of the soul unless God intervenes. Any other belief in God outside of this will not save. Believing man can do this on his own is false teaching.
In addition, one cannot keep the Law, nor can one believe himself to salvation. This is the error that several non-cals/arminian on here espouse. Yet, both are impossible without God. But we still have some on here fighting for the goodness of man, and against the fact that God alone does all of the saving."Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." Romans 10:17. It doesn't come from you, it's not inherent, it comes from Gods Word. That is the source of faith, God's Word, not you. Consider this same Word whence came all things.
As to keeping the Law? Only One has done it, that is, Christ. Before you allude to others "keeping" the Law in Scriptures, refer back to my last statement. If by the Law is the knowledge of sin, (Romans 3:20) guess what? That's right, none can keep it. It instead proves they haven't by giving them the knowledge of sin. To quote verses "proving" others have kept it, as is the false teaching presented by non-cals, is to misunderstand those verses in light of this dogma, and denies the truth.
I've stated this all along.
Read John 8. Man is bound as a slave to sin, a spiritual condition to which Christ, not choice, is the only answer. Yet, said person can look religious. He must be set free. His will is bound to sin, and this is not free until Christ makes one free.
So yes, salvifically and scripturally speaking man cannot believe in God without God.
Thus I am against Pelagius teaching, who says man can do these things, even practice the Law without God's divine assistance. His teaching is heretical.
- Peace
Last edited by a moderator:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: If you are for truth as you indicate you are, support the notion that Pelagius taught that man, apart from divine assistance, can either be saved or practice keeping the law. Show us from any of Pelagius's writings where he ever said stated or implied any such thing as you indicate he did. Don't give me his detractors statements, for they are obviously tainted, but rather show us from the works of Pelagius where he said or implied any of those things.
I would be of the opinion that you know not whereof you speak and that all you are doing is regurgitating false accusations made by Augustine and others. I am willing to learn. If I am wrong and you can prove your point, I would be willing as well to condemn what Pelagius is accused of believing. Show us the evidence and truth of your remarks. If you can't you need to retract your statements until such time as you can prove your point. One that claims to be 'for truth' should be 'against slander.':thumbs:
Jerry Shugart
New Member
Hi Moriah,
You have brought up many things which the Calvinsts have not been able to answer, especially about their false teaching that a person is regenerated before they believe. With that in mind let us look at a verse from the pen of Paul and what the Calvinists say about it.
Calvinist R.C. Sproul says that "regeneration" occurs when we were dead in trepasses and are made alive together with Christ:
"The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: '...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)' (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' " (Sproul, Regeneration Precedes Faith).
Let us look at a verse that speaks of the same thing so therefore the following words are about "regeneration":
"When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions" (Col.2:12-13).
We can also see that this regeneration does not happen until a person has his transgressions or sins forgiven--"having forgiven us all our transgressions."
We also know that no one has their sins forgiven until they believe:
"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name" (Acts 10:43).
Common sense dictates that since no one has their sins forgiven until they believe then no one is regenerated until they believe. But the Calvinists teach that regeneration precedes faith.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: I would add, not until they repent and believe. Those two are not one in the same.
That was beautiful, beautiful. I am thankful for this, excellent handling of the word.
Christos doulos
New Member
My friend. We must be careful making definitive statements such as these. I believe in regeneration before repentance, but I will not be definitive on the matter. You have a presupposition that it is the opposite. Your presupposition does not make what you say is true, only bias to your point of view. You not willing to accept the answers laid before you does not support that Calvinists have no answers.
Last edited by a moderator:
No, not OK. Your straw man tactic is misrepresenting another person's views; in this case, it is Calvin's views. You are the one who does not understand.
You find it hard that so many could follow falseness. People show you the truth, and you reject it, just like many before you and after you.
If it will help you, I sure will.
No, there is no difference.
People that say Jesus saved them, they say they have faith, yet not all do what Jesus says. James tells us faith without deeds is dead. This disproves Calvinism, for why is there a distinction between faith and deeds if, as Calvinists say, we can do neither before we are saved. Your beliefs mock God.
Faith comes from hearing, how can they hear if someone does not preach.
NOWHERE in the scriptures does it say that we cannot believe in God after learning of Jesus. There is no such thing.
The person who loved God in the Old Testament, gladly did right, remembered God’s way, but when they continued to sin against them, God was angry. They asked, “How then can we be saved?” Those people, they wanted to obey God, but they could not stop sinning, not until God sent the Savior. There were people, Jews, who followed the law given, yet they did not love God, they did the works required of them, but their hearts were far from God. For instance, when they were required to give a sin offering, they did so, but not with a repentant heart.
LINK TO ARTICLE
Pelagianism derives its name from Pelagius who lived in the 5th century A.D. and was a teacher in Rome, though he was British by birth. It is a heresy dealing with the nature of man. Pelagius, whose family name was Morgan, taught that people had the ability to fulfill the commands of God by exercising the freedom of human will apart from the grace of God. In other words, a person's free will is totally capable of choosing God and/or to do good or bad without the aid of Divine intervention. Pelagianism teaches that man's nature is basically good. Thus it denies original sin, the doctrine that we have inherited a sinful nature from Adam. He said that Adam only hurt himself when he fell and all of his descendents were not affected by Adam's sin. Pelagius taught that a person is born with the same purity and moral abilities as Adam was when he was first made by God. He taught that people can choose God by the exercise of their free will and rational thought. God's grace, then, is merely an aid to help individuals come to Him.
Pelagius has been condemned by many councils throughout church history including the following:
Councils of Carthage (412, 416 and 418)
Council of Ephesus (431)
The Council of Orange (529)
Council of Trent (1546) Roman Catholic
2nd Helvetic (1561/66) 8-9. (Swiss-German Reformed)
Augsburg Confession (1530) Art. 9, 18 (Lutheran)
Gallican Confession (1559) Art. 10 (French Reformed)
Belgic Confession (1561) Art. 15 (Lowlands, French/Dutch/German Reformed)
The Anglican Articles (1571), 9. (English)
Canons of Dort (1618-9), 3/4.2 (Dutch/German/French Reformed).1
There are people who claim they want to be obedient, but they reject Jesus. They must go through Jesus. Are you sympathizing with those who reject Jesus, but claim they want to obey God? Maybe reading the Parable of the Seeds will help you to understand some of the reasons people are not saved. The Bible says people enter the kingdom of heaven by force. False prophets have deceived some, and led people astray. Just read the Bible and see what God has waiting for the false prophets. The Bible says, But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Christos doulos
New Member
No. You said, that people (Jews, Muslims) want to be obedient for God. I asked, how can they want to be if they reject Christ? If they want then won't God reveal to them the truth in order that they can be obedient or will God leave them dangling?
They must not really want to obey God, since they reject Jesus. This does not mean that they do not say and believe themselves that they are obeying God.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Thanks, Amy, you beat me to it.
This is such a well known fact and major reason for his being condemned an heretic, I am bewildered that one would not know this.
The fact that such teaching has gone on in this thread (Pelgianism) and said remains "uncondemned" by HP is interesting, especially with this statement of his:
Get to condemning the teaching. It's here, in its many fallacies.
Pelagius taught what I said he did.
- Peace
preacher4truth
Active Member
No, what I've done is disproven what YOU say Calvinists teach, which is a misrepresentation on your part. That's the strawman. I've admitted to each thing a Calvinist does teach.
All you've shown me so far is you're a false teacher and in fact a full blown Pelagian.
Concerning the quote feature that you need to learn to use, you said:
No son, this is to help you.
Then you said:
Between the two persons I described here:
There is a vast diffence between mental assent and real belief. It says so in James. That you cannot discern, nor do you believe there is a difference between true belief and false, is, well, interesting to say the least.
Our deeds before Christ add nothing to salvation. Before Christ, our righteousnesses mean nothing. To you? Well, obviously they assist your salvation and help Christ save you. In this, you are a false teacher.
They can't. And they can't have faith either unless imparted from this preaching; Romans 10:17. You teach otherwise, which is false teaching.
Uh, ya think? No one has taught differently. If so, quote them as saying it.
What a discombobulated run on sentence here of yours that comes to no conclusions whatsoever, nor does it prove a thing. It was kind of fun to read, but it is actually pointless. Anyone who did right, in Gods terms, did so with Divine assistance only.
Again, you prove by your behaviour that man cannot obey God nor be good.
Last edited by a moderator:
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Go back to the drawing board Amy. If you want to do something besides spread falsehoods, innuendos, and slander, you first need to look at how the church viewed grace prior to Augustine's notion of original sin. Then you need to honestly seek out the honest views Pelagius himself, believed, from the source himself, not from simply those of his detractors.
Simply clicking a link Amy, is a quick way to look like you've done your homework, but you have not. You are simply just regurgitating tainted history that fails to take into consideration the real issues involved, such as the view of the church of grace prior to Augustine and the fact that the church did not hold to original sin prior to Augustine. Those two facts drove the whole Pelagian/Augustine problem. Bear in mind prior to Augustine stacking the deck against Pelagius the third time around, Pelagius was completely exonerated by two former councils. Sitting in the seat of power certainly had its advantages for Augustine.
Simply clicking a link Amy, is a quick way to look like you've done your homework, but you have not. You are simply just regurgitating tainted history that fails to take into consideration the real issues involved, such as the view of the church of grace prior to Augustine and the fact that the church did not hold to original sin prior to Augustine. Those two facts drove the whole Pelagian/Augustine problem. Bear in mind prior to Augustine stacking the deck against Pelagius the third time around, Pelagius was completely exonerated by two former councils. Sitting in the seat of power certainly had its advantages for Augustine.
Go back to the drawing board Amy. If you want to do something besides spread falsehoods, innuendos, and slander, you first need to look at how the church viewed grace prior to Augustine's notion of original sin. Then you need to honestly seek out the honest views Pelagius himself, believed, from the source himself, not from simply those of his detractors.
Simply clicking a link Amy, is a quick way to look like you've done your homework, but you have not. You are simply just regurgitating tainted history that fails to take into consideration the real issues involved, such as the view of the church of grace prior to Augustine and the fact that the church did not hold to original sin prior to Augustine. Those two facts drove the whole Pelagian/Augustine problem. Bear in mind prior to Augustine stacking the deck against Pelagius the third time around, Pelagius was completely exonerated by two former councils. Sitting in the seat of power certainly had its advantages for Augustine.
Prove it. I'm on my way to church. I'll check back later to see your proof that Pelagianism is not heresy.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Um, no Amy doesn't need to do anything else other than what she's done and that is to state facts. You also need to learn how to address not only a lady, but others period.
But of course, who would've thought otherwise, that is, that you would reject facts in your pugnacious response? The proof is in what Amy stated, and has correctly represented Pelagius, and others similar beliefs on the BB. In fact, some of your false teaching is in line with his.
I am glad to see you justify Pelagius as being "exonerated." This further proves your sympathetic views for his heretical teachings, and that your teachings are in line with his.
Last edited by a moderator:
Right now, I am not sure you can see much of any truth.
You give a blind man's opinion. In addition, if Pelagius believed in some truths, then he believes God's Truth. It is the words of Jesus, not Pelgius’.
Assent means to acknowledge something, agree to something, or surrender to something.
You say that a person who mental surrenders to Jesus is different from true belief? LOL
I only repeated what my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ said:
Acts 5:32 "...the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
You call me a false teacher; however, you are really calling Jesus a false teacher. I only repeated Jesus' words.
I have been telling you that faith comes from hearing, from learning, from being convinced, and persuaded. I gave you scriptures. You tell us that God causes us to believe by making us born again first. No scripture says that. You believe in things not in the Bible.
Here it is again, the false teaching you said you do not do:
There is a vast diffence between mental assent and real belief. It says so in James. That you cannot discern, nor do you believe there is a difference between true belief and false, is, well, interesting to say the least.
There is more false teachings I can show you were you explain that we cannot believe unless God causes us to.
Do you want me to proof read your sentences?
What you say here is more of your judging that God says not to do. Oh yeah, but you Calvinist sin continuously.
- Status