New Year’s, The Second Coming, The Thessalonians, & Preterism

[Logos1]

New Year’s is the perfect analogy to explain the second coming or transition to the New Covenant. Obviously the Thessalonians and Paul are both Preterists.

The Thessalonians prove that Christ wasn’t coming in bodily form and the World wasn’t going to be remade at Christ’s second coming.

We see the Thessalonians fear they have missed Christ’s second coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 3
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

Here we see the Thessalonians are fearful they have already missed the second coming. This and Paul’s answer tell us a lot about the nature of the second coming.

The Thessalonians weren’t expecting
1. The physical end of the World
2. An Acts 1:11 type of event in the sense that Christ would part the clouds and appear in the sky
3. A Revelation 1:7 type of event where every physical eye would see him.
4. A second Peter type of event where the world is destroyed by fire
5. A coming on the literal clouds event
6. A utopian millennial kingdom
7. A New Jerusalem floating down from heaven
8. Jesus to set foot on the Mount of Olives and crack open the crust of the earth
9. Jesus to destroy every Nation’s army while they were surrounding Jerusalem
10. A new world order where people magically start to live to be 100 and predator animals quit eating animals of prey
11. Any world changing event of any type that you couldn’t help but notice

They expected an event that could go unnoticed and not be perceived by the senses.

Paul’s answer is equally telling. He didn’t correct them by saying no you are wrong it will be so world changing that you can’t miss it. If the Thessalonians had been wrong in their expectations Paul would have corrected them.

Also notice the timing—they expected it in their live time.

If they were wrong and it was way in the future Paul would have told them so, but he actually said to them We who are alive at the Lord’s coming 1 Thess 4:15.

We see the event being like a New Year. The calendar changes, but time goes on like before with no physical change in the world.

Obviously all the futuristic views of the second coming are clearly wrong based on these very telling verses of scripture. Those who would take verses of scripture and make them into something else would do well to align their views with scripture and find a new way to look at those events and not fight against scripture and twist it to suit their preconceived notions which have been a glorious failure of two thousand years and still counting.

I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[HankD]

New Year’s is the perfect analogy to explain the second coming or transition to the New Covenant. Obviously the Thessalonians and Paul are both Preterists.

The Thessalonians prove that Christ wasn’t coming in bodily form and the World wasn’t going to be remade at Christ’s second coming.

We see the Thessalonians fear they have missed Christ’s second coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 3
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

Here we see the Thessalonians are fearful they have already missed the second coming. This and Paul’s answer tell us a lot about the nature of the second coming.

The Thessalonians weren’t expecting
1. The physical end of the World
2. An Acts 1:11 type of event in the sense that Christ would part the clouds and appear in the sky
3. A Revelation 1:7 type of event where every physical eye would see him.
4. A second Peter type of event where the world is destroyed by fire
5. A coming on the literal clouds event
6. A utopian millennial kingdom
7. A New Jerusalem floating down from heaven
8. Jesus to set foot on the Mount of Olives and crack open the crust of the earth
9. Jesus to destroy every Nation’s army while they were surrounding Jerusalem
10. A new world order where people magically start to live to be 100 and predator animals quit eating animals of prey
11. Any world changing event of any type that you couldn’t help but notice

They expected an event that could go unnoticed and not be perceived by the senses.

Paul’s answer is equally telling. He didn’t correct them by saying no you are wrong it will be so world changing that you can’t miss it. If the Thessalonians had been wrong in their expectations Paul would have corrected them.

Also notice the timing—they expected it in their live time.

If they were wrong and it was way in the future Paul would have told them so, but he actually said to them We who are alive at the Lord’s coming 1 Thess 4:15.

We see the event being like a New Year. The calendar changes, but time goes on like before with no physical change in the world.

Obviously all the futuristic views of the second coming are clearly wrong based on these very telling verses of scripture. Those who would take verses of scripture and make them into something else would do well to align their views with scripture and find a new way to look at those events and not fight against scripture and twist it to suit their preconceived notions which have been a glorious failure of two thousand years and still counting.

I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

So? they were wrong and confused.

They were wrong to think that the second coming had already happened.
and Paul corrected them by using the future tense of the happenings surrounding the second coming.

1 Thessalonians 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

In verse 14 the resurrection model is given:For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again...​

Jesus rose literally in an immortal and glorious body, so shall we...​

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​

If they actually believed what you say they believed in items 1-11 then they were also confused about the order of events surrounding the second coming, the rapture (harazo-the snatching away), the tribulation, the millennium, the final conflagration...​

It was not unusual for early Christians to be confused as the scripture was nearing completion. That is the reason for the apostolic epistles, the Acts of the Apostles, the Revelation, etc, to clear up the confusion.​

For instance the Corinthians essentially doubted the resurrection of Christ.​

1 Corinthians 15 also uses Christ's resurrection as a model of our resurrection in a real and immortal body as He has. He was/is the Firstfruits, we at His future coming shall be gathered together in our immortal bodies with Him.​

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

A real but immortal body which shall, in His future kingdom, be able to eat and drink:

Luke 22

28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

HankD​

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So? they were wrong and confused.

They were wrong to think that the second coming had already happened.
and Paul corrected them by using the future tense of the happenings surrounding the second coming.

1 Thessalonians 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

In verse 14 the resurrection model is given:For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again...​

Jesus rose literally in an immortal and glorious body, so shall we...​

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​

If they actually believed what you say they believed in items 1-11 then they were also confused about the order of events surrounding the second coming, the rapture (harazo-the snatching away), the tribulation, the millennium, the final conflagration...​

It was not unusual for early Christians to be confused as the scripture was nearing completion. That is the reason for the apostolic epistles, the Acts of the Apostles, the Revelation, etc, to clear up the confusion.​

For instance the Corinthians essentially doubted the resurrection of Christ.​

1 Corinthians 15 also uses Christ's resurrection as a model of our resurrection in a real and immortal body as He has. He was/is the Firstfruits, we at His future coming shall be gathered together in our immortal bodies with Him.​

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

A real but immortal body which shall, in His future kingdom, be able to eat and drink:

Luke 22

28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

HankD​

Hank....I applaud this commentary:applause:

 

[Martin Marprelate]

2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 3
'Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way.'

I think that tells us all we need to know about Hyper-preterism.

Steve

 

[asterisktom]

2 Thessalonians 2:1 - 3
'Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way.'

I think that tells us all we need to know about Hyper-preterism.

Steve

Unless of course one wants to see what that verse is actually teaching.

Not that you are.

 

[HankD]

Hank....I applaud this commentary:applause:

Thanks EWF, I try to use scripture primarily.

However a non-scriptural but historic fact is that according to my research the early church apostolic fathers knew nothing of preterism's basic tenet that the AD70 Roman invasion was a fulfillment of the Second Coming.

HankD

 

[Logos1]

Thanks for the response Hank, but I don't understand it

So? they were wrong and confused.

They were wrong to think that the second coming had already happened.
and Paul corrected them by using the future tense of the happenings surrounding the second coming.

1 Thessalonians 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

In verse 14 the resurrection model is given:For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again...​

Jesus rose literally in an immortal and glorious body, so shall we...​

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​

If they actually believed what you say they believed in items 1-11 then they were also confused about the order of events surrounding the second coming, the rapture (harazo-the snatching away), the tribulation, the millennium, the final conflagration...​

It was not unusual for early Christians to be confused as the scripture was nearing completion. That is the reason for the apostolic epistles, the Acts of the Apostles, the Revelation, etc, to clear up the confusion.​

For instance the Corinthians essentially doubted the resurrection of Christ.​

1 Corinthians 15 also uses Christ's resurrection as a model of our resurrection in a real and immortal body as He has. He was/is the Firstfruits, we at His future coming shall be gathered together in our immortal bodies with Him.​

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

A real but immortal body which shall, in His future kingdom, be able to eat and drink:

Luke 22

28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

HankD​

Hank I’m not sure what most of these verses had to do with the topic. Did you stray off point because it is impossible to turn the Thessalonians into futurists?

While some prefer to ignore the actual passage and paint it with their preconceived notions, denials, and scripture torturing bias I prefer to see it for what it is.

Paul clearly did not correct their expectation about the type of coming or that it would come in their life time, just that it had not come yet. By not correcting their expectation of the type of coming and in their generation Paul confirmed it.

In yet another passage of scripture we see Paul in a letter warn his audience the time is very short.
1 Corinthians 7:29 (ESV) This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short….
You just can’t deny the soon coming of Christ in the first generation of Christians without making a mockery of the bible. If you are going to twist scripture to the point of such mockery you treat it not like the inspired Word of God, but as pointless and meaningless ramblings of ancient dreamers who merely meant to entertain themselves.

In some posts here and in some futurist commentaries there is an attempt to say when Christ says he is coming quickly seven times in Revelation that he really means not that he is coming quickly but that when things start to happen they will happen quickly. LOL!

Any honest reading of Revelation finds that laughable. To show just how absurd it is the Greek word for quickly used by Jesus is the same one used by Paul when he is in prison in Rome and tells Timothy to come to him quickly.

Would anybody buy into the argument that Paul was telling Timothy drag around all he wanted, but once he got on the Roman road to make good time. Obviously not.

If we want to profess Christianity we owe it to the inspired word of God to accept it as it is given to us and not twist as a tool for our own purposes.

I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Just one small question:
Why is it that for Hyper-preterists the word "quickly" always has to be translated literally, but the word "see" always has to be 'spiritualized' in some way to mean something else than what it most obviously does mean?

Steve

 

[HankD]

Hank I’m not sure what most of these verses had to do with the topic. Did you stray off point because it is impossible to turn the Thessalonians into futurists?

While some prefer to ignore the actual passage and paint it with their preconceived notions, denials, and scripture torturing bias I prefer to see it for what it is.

Paul clearly did not correct their expectation about the type of coming or that it would come in their life time, just that it had not come yet. By not correcting their expectation of the type of coming and in their generation Paul confirmed it.

In yet another passage of scripture we see Paul in a letter warn his audience the time is very short.
1 Corinthians 7:29 (ESV) This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short….
You just can’t deny the soon coming of Christ in the first generation of Christians without making a mockery of the bible. If you are going to twist scripture to the point of such mockery you treat it not like the inspired Word of God, but as pointless and meaningless ramblings of ancient dreamers who merely meant to entertain themselves.

In some posts here and in some futurist commentaries there is an attempt to say when Christ says he is coming quickly seven times in Revelation that he really means not that he is coming quickly but that when things start to happen they will happen quickly. LOL!

Any honest reading of Revelation finds that laughable. To show just how absurd it is the Greek word for quickly used by Jesus is the same one used by Paul when he is in prison in Rome and tells Timothy to come to him quickly.

Would anybody buy into the argument that Paul was telling Timothy drag around all he wanted, but once he got on the Roman road to make good time. Obviously not.

If we want to profess Christianity we owe it to the inspired word of God to accept it as it is given to us and not twist as a tool for our own purposes.

My rebutal stands, Paul used the future tense along with some plain literal terminology (air, trumpet, shout) in the epistle to the Thessalonians.

Terminology which IMO you need to explain - does "air" mean "air"?

If not, to what then does it refer?

Let the readers decide.

As to the expectation of Paul:

So what? Paul's expectation of "soon" was on one end of the parameter of the measurement of time.

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.​

Yes it was quite possible that Christ could have come according to the scriptures that "every eye shall see Him" in Paul's potential timeline expectation but obviously He didn't. He has delayed His coming as is His perogative.

As to your comments concerning the Book of Revelation

Any honest reading of Revelation finds that laughable. To show just how absurd it is the Greek word for quickly used by Jesus is the same one used by Paul when he is in prison in Rome and tells Timothy to come to him quickly

...

If we want to profess Christianity we owe it to the inspired word of God to accept it as it is given to us and not twist as a tool for our own purposes.

OK then, lets put the preterist interpretation to your test.

The motto of preterism is that "all has been accomplished".

What of the thousand year reign of Christ and all the events surrounding it?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.​

When were these 1000 years? before or after AD70?
Did it start in 930BC or AD70 or when?

Is satan still bound or loosed, etc, etc.

What of the Great White Throne Judgment?

Revelation 20

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

All this has already happened?​

What of the those born after AD70? Are they not judged?
Is the lake of fire closed?​

Or this:​

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​

In what manner of interpretation has it been fulfilled that the "first heaven and earth are passed away" and there is also "no more sea"?​

I could go on (and will if necessary) but this should suffice, I await your responses.​

HankD​

 

[JesusFan]

Unless of course one wants to see what that verse is actually teaching.

Not that you are.

Just curious...

Who was the Man of sin/lawlessness, and the false prophet, who had signs and wonders to even if possible deceive the elect?

Who was the man that Jesus slew by his appearing, and when did that beast/false prophet get judged and tossed into lake of Fire?

when did all of that historically occur?

 

[asterisktom]

Just curious...

Who was the Man of sin/lawlessness, and the false prophet, who had signs and wonders to even if possible deceive the elect?

Who was the man that Jesus slew by his appearing, and when did that beast/false prophet get judged and tossed into lake of Fire?

when did all of that historically occur?

I already answered some of these on different posts recently. You'll have to hunt them up as I am busy elsewhere right now.

One of the posts was from today, but I forget which thread it was.

 

[Logos1]

Why do we call it futurism instead of cartoonism?

Just one small question:
Why is it that for Hyper-preterists the word "quickly" always has to be translated literally, but the word "see" always has to be 'spiritualized' in some way to mean something else than what it most obviously does mean?

Steve

We don’t spiritualize it we take it literally as in everyone would know, perceive, comprehend, etc. the Roman army was the incarnation of God’s will same as Isaiah 19:1 as the Assyrian army was the incarnation of God’s will when God was riding on a fast cloud. Steve do you want to point blank proclaim God was physically riding on a fast cloud and every eye saw Him?

Why does futurism insist on reducing scripture to the cartoon level and not grasp the higher concepts plainly and forcefully stated?

This is one of the problems of futurism—it can’t deal with scriptures on the level they were written it. Futurists need to dumb down scripture to comprehend it instead of elevating their level of reading, comprehension, and bible study.

I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[Logos1]

Futurists still clinging to failure

Hank..."My rebuttal stands"

Your rebuttal stands hallow and contrived I’m afraid. It just doesn’t jive with honest scripture reading. We all have to make up our own mind whether to read our desires into scripture or let scripture guide our understanding. Preterism wouldn’t be growing so if it weren’t winning in the free market place of ideas. In the future most people will be Preterists and the outsiders will be futurists.

After two thousand years of failure some people want scriptural understanding that offers something other than abject failure.


I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[Logos1]

Putting Hank's 1,000 years to the test

Hank: "OK then, lets put the preterist interpretation to your test.

The motto of preterism is that "all has been accomplished".

What of the thousand year reign of Christ and all the events surrounding it?"


Well, Hank since the thousand years seems to be your sticking point here let’s deal with it. This is not hard. It is a cop out to try to literalize it because futurists can’t do some simple leg work and study in the scripture. This is one of the most disappointing aspects of futurism—the laziness it demands of its disciples. Futurism reduces scripture to a cartoonish level of literalness. It puts limits on the way its adherents can see God and His power and glory and majesty and Divine plan.

The Thousand years is clearly a metaphor for completeness—pure and simple on any level other than the cartoonish view of understanding.

First off we know that we battle not against flesh and blood but principalities (you do recall this from Ephesians) so Satan as we know is spiritual in nature. I’m sure you don’t mean to literalize the chain and the key, but see them as figurative speech so why would you literalize the thousand years. You surely don’t think a physical chain would hold Satan do you? If the key and chain in the passage are figurative not literal why should the thousand years be literal?

Neither Jesus not any Apostles ever taught that Satan would be bound for a thousand years. The verse in Revelation is the only mention of such a thing in the bible. Why rush to make a cartoonish theology based on one verse?

Should we let scripture interpret itself or just make it up as we go along. There is no foundation for seeing the Thousand years as literal, but there is an Old Testament full of Thousand years references meant to signify completeness and not a literal thousand years.

Maybe you would like to see some.

Deut 7:9 Keep his commandments to a thousand years…so does that signify completeness, forever etc, or do you want to cling to your view and say after a thousand years his commandments shouldn’t be kept any longer?

1 Chronicles 6:15 the word he commanded to a thousand generations…signify completeness or stick to your view of not go to a thousand and one generatons?

Psalm 50:10 every beast of the forest is mine and the cattle of a thousand hills…is God limited to merely a owning thousand hills or does he own all the beasts, cattle, and hills?

Psalm 84:10 better a day in your courts than a thousand else where…want to stick to your literal view and say the 1,001 day else where would be better than being in the Lord’s courts.

So we see the term thousand applied to years, days, generations, things and all of them clearly used figuratively to signify completeness.

Are you beginning to grasp the use of the term a thousand in the bible?

I find this such a sad aspect of futurism—it robs its adherents of true biblical understanding and the greatness of God. It is cartoonish, limiting, and forces God into only being comprehended at the literal level when he is so much bigger and grander than that. You can’t begin to comprehend the vastness and greatness that God wants to relate to us when you limit Him to the merely literal.

I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[HankD]

Hank: "OK then, lets put the preterist interpretation to your test.

The motto of preterism is that "all has been accomplished".

What of the thousand year reign of Christ and all the events surrounding it?"

[snipped]

I find this such a sad aspect of futurism—it robs its adherents of true biblical understanding and the greatness of God. It is cartoonish, limiting, and forces God into only being comprehended at the literal level when he is so much bigger and grander than that. You can’t begin to comprehend the vastness and greatness that God wants to relate to us when you limit Him to the merely literal.

The essential point of the preterism hermeneutic has been made by logos1.

One can take any phrase, do a scan in the scripture for allegorical/metaphorical or secondary definition uses of said phrase and then declare their metaphorical interpretation of the scripture to be the true interpretation.

That is not to say that futurists don't do the same on occassion.
In fact preterists deny futurists this methodology concerning the validity of the phrase "quickly" as related to God's view of "quickly".

Preterism however depends for the greatest bulk of it's scriptural evidence using this tool of interpretation (except for the phrase "soon") overthrowing the ancient and traditional view of futurism.

As to the traditional millennial hermeneutic:

First, the use of the definite article "the thousand years" is the first indication that the phrase is more than a metaphor.

Second, the long running narrative of the account of "the thousand years" in Revelation 20 is another indication along with the use of the definite article that "the thousand years" is not a metaphor or allegorical use of the phrase.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.​

Third, those events which depend upon and occur after the thousand years are expired (a metaphor for completeness in your words) cannot be explained if those one thousand years are a metaphor.​

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

Fourth, if the thousand years are a metaphor then why not other words and phrases in Revelation 20 or for that fact the entire Book of the Revelation.​

To be sure that some of that method of interpretaion is indeed a necessity in understanding the Book of Revelation. Add to that "problem" that the Revelation mixes literal and metaphorical terms and phrases.​

That is why (as you have demonstrated) other scripture must be bought in to support one's decision as to a hermeneutic.​

e.g. Christ's literal promise to His apostles/disciples:​

Luke 22
28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

This certainly indicates the literal (eat,drink,table) unless of course Jesus was speaking allegorically - in your estimation.​

So, I offer my comments to portray a millennial futurists view of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ without personal criticism of you logos1 a brother in Christ.​

Let the readers decide if so inclined.​

Fifth (and admitedly an historical piece of evidence) - from the early church on to the Reformation that there is virtually no evidence even from the apostolic church fathers who spanned the times of the destruction of the Temple a clear and definitive writing that the events of AD70 and following were a fulfilment in toto of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ but were they themselves futurists looking forward to His coming again in a visible, personal and bodily manner.​

Some have challenged that premise.
Perhaps one can be found. Please post it if you know of one.​

One more piece of evidence for the literalism of futurism:

Acts 1

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

The prophetic fulfilment when He returns/descends to the Mount of Olives:​

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

Again, the readers can decide for themselves (should they be inclined to even make a decision) between the hermeneutic which results in futurism or preterism concerning the Second Coming.​

HankD​

 

[HankD]

Why do we call it futurism instead of cartoonism?

We don’t spiritualize it we take it literally as in everyone would know, perceive, comprehend, etc. the Roman army was the incarnation of God’s will same as Isaiah 19:1 as the Assyrian army was the incarnation of God’s will when God was riding on a fast cloud. Steve do you want to point blank proclaim God was physically riding on a fast cloud and every eye saw Him?

Why does futurism insist on reducing scripture to the cartoon level and not grasp the higher concepts plainly and forcefully stated?

This is one of the problems of futurism—it can’t deal with scriptures on the level they were written it. Futurists need to dumb down scripture to comprehend it instead of elevating their level of reading, comprehension, and bible study.

I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

"Why do we call it futurism instead of cartoonism?"

Because instead of obsessing on your "cartoonism" (so-called) we look at the scripture (as has been done down through the ages of Christendom) which clearly portray the visible, personal and bodily return of Jesus Christ:

Act1

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.​

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.​

The Son of man (whom every eye will see) is not a Roman general but Him who was pierced (Revelation 1:7).​

HankD​

 

[asterisktom]

Fifth (and admitedly an historical piece of evidence) - from the early church on to the Reformation that there is virtually no evidence even from the apostolic church fathers who spanned the times of the destruction of the Temple a clear and definitive writing that the events of AD70 and following were a fulfilment in toto of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ but were they themselves futurists looking forward to His coming again in a visible, personal and bodily manner.​

Some have challenged that premise.
Perhaps one can be found. Please post it if you know of one.​

HankD​

This is from an earlier post of mine from last year on this same general topic. It shows a basically Preterist understanding from several ECF.

Melito of Sardis (from the first half or middle of the 2nd century):

“‘Who will contend against me? Let him stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned. It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who raised up the buried. Who will argue with me? It is I,’ says Christ, ‘who destroyed death. It is I who triumphed over the enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the Strong Man, and have snatched mankind up to the heights of heaven.’”


through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they
rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the
dead.

This phrase "when He came" is from the Greek PARWN, which is a verb form of PAROUSIA. Ignatius is looking back at Christ's Parousia. The ones who had been raised (past tense) are the Old Testament prophets.

His use of PARWN in a spiritual application is the same use that Paul employs in 1 Cor. 5:3:

"For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit [PARWN DE TW PNEUMATI], have already judged (as though I were present[HWS PARWN]) him who has so done this deed."

Back to Ignatius.

Magnesians, CHAPTER 10
10:2 Therefore put away the vile leaven which hath
waxed stale and sour, and betake yourselves to the new
leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him,
that none among you grow putrid, seeing that by your
savour ye shall be proved.

10:3 It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to
practise Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in
Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, wherein every
tongue believed and was gathered together unto
God. (Italics are quoting Isa. 66:18)

Smyrnaeans, chapter 1
[Christ was] "truly born of a virgin and baptized by John
that _all righteousness might be fulfilled_ by Him,

1:2 truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under
Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch (of which fruit
are we -- that is, of His most blessed passion); that
He might set up an ensign unto all the ages through
His resurrection, for His saints and faithful people,
whether among Jews or among Gentiles, in one body of
His Church." (Italics are quoting Isaiah 5:26 and 9:22)

This last verse shows that Ignatius saw that the ensign of Christ - the Cross - was to Jews and Gentiles of all ages. That is, there is no age in the future where there will be a return to the shadows of those deprecated OT sacrifices, such as is postulated by millennialists.

Edit
Another point I wanted to add, and that is the fact that a few of the ECF have been assigned later dates than is warranted, IMO. Case in point is Clement of Rome, whose writings are to be placed from the the late 50s to AD 70. The Parousia he was looking forward to was still in the future from his standpoint.

 

[HankD]

This is from an earlier post of mine from last year on this same general topic. It shows a basically Preterist understanding from several ECF.

Melito of Sardis (from the first half or middle of the 2nd century):

“‘Who will contend against me? Let him stand before me. It is I who delivered the condemned. It is I who gave life to the dead. It is I who raised up the buried. Who will argue with me? It is I,’ says Christ, ‘who destroyed death. It is I who triumphed over the enemy, and having trod down Hades, and bound the Strong Man, and have snatched mankind up to the heights of heaven.’”


through the Spirit. And for this cause He whom they
rightly awaited, when He came, raised them from the
dead.

This phrase "when He came" is from the Greek PARWN, which is a verb form of PAROUSIA. Ignatius is looking back at Christ's Parousia. The ones who had been raised (past tense) are the Old Testament prophets.

His use of PARWN in a spiritual application is the same use that Paul employs in 1 Cor. 5:3:

"For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit [PARWN DE TW PNEUMATI], have already judged (as though I were present[HWS PARWN]) him who has so done this deed."

OK, a case to be made is possible with the Melito passage.

However, IMO it is not 100% definitive because Melito may be speaking of those whom Jesus raised from the dead whilst here in the days of His flesh namely Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, etc. and the following saints:

Matthew 27

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.​

Also he does not exactly equate those who were awaiting and subsequently raised from the dead with "the second coming (or coming again)" and/or the events of AD70.
That would be an extrapolation IMO.

But FWIW, I'll put it in the preterist column as a definite possibility.

Back to Ignatius.

Magnesians, CHAPTER 10
10:2 Therefore put away the vile leaven which hath
waxed stale and sour, and betake yourselves to the new
leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him,
that none among you grow putrid, seeing that by your
savour ye shall be proved.

10:3 It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to
practise Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in
Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, wherein every
tongue believed and was gathered together unto
God. (Italics are quoting Isa. 66:18)

Smyrnaeans, chapter 1
[Christ was] "truly born of a virgin and baptized by John
that _all righteousness might be fulfilled_ by Him,

1:2 truly nailed up in the flesh for our sakes under
Pontius Pilate and Herod the tetrarch (of which fruit
are we -- that is, of His most blessed passion); that
He might set up an ensign unto all the ages through
His resurrection, for His saints and faithful people,
whether among Jews or among Gentiles, in one body of
His Church." (Italics are quoting Isaiah 5:26 and 9:22)

This last verse shows that Ignatius saw that the ensign of Christ - the Cross - was to Jews and Gentiles of all ages. That is, there is no age in the future where there will be a return to the shadows of those deprecated OT sacrifices, such as is postulated by millennialists.

Edit
Another point I wanted to add, and that is the fact that a few of the ECF have been assigned later dates than is warranted, IMO. Case in point is Clement of Rome, whose writings are to be placed from the the late 50s to AD 70. The Parousia he was looking forward to was still in the future from his standpoint.

Tom, the Ignatius citations are very weak IMO.
In fact I am wondering now if I had cited Ignatius (or perhaps Papias) as quoting Revelation 20 as support for the Chiliad (Millennium) in our lengthy debates from the past.

I'll look into that.

RE:Clement - of course before AD70 everyone was of necessity perceived as a futurist by preterists.

Thanks Tom.


HankD

 

[Logos1]

Futurism is a tough row to hoe

The essential point of the preterism hermeneutic has been made by logos1.

One can take any phrase, do a scan in the scripture for allegorical/metaphorical or secondary definition uses of said phrase and then declare their metaphorical interpretation of the scripture to be the true interpretation.

The term thousand represents completeness, wholeness; fullness, etc. you don’t seem to be able to find bible verses to dispute that—you just repeat the thousand year verses as support for your case. That is like defining a word with itself. Slight of hand--but not legit bible hermeneutic. If you have any verses for support put them up (instead of chasing scriptural rabbits to obfuscate the issue). This seems like the rest of futuristic doctrine just say it's so with no scriptural support. You haven’t yet found a single verse to suggest Christ will come back way in the future, another generation, or anything else beyond the first generation.

All of futurism is based on twisting scripture to deny its essential truths. If one really sought biblical truth instead of a point of view they would have to ask why their system has no biblical support and if two thousand years of abject, total failure ought to suggest looking for a better understanding of scripture.

Nor do you make any effort to dispute the chains are not literal so why would the thousand years be literal.

Nor do you have an answer as to why neither Jesus nor the apostles ever taught Satan being bound for a thousand years.

The thousand year period was some period of time between Pentecost and 70 AD which bound Satan sufficiently to allow the gospel to spread over the whole world (Mediterranean world). Then he was loosed to work his deceptions around the events of 70 AD.

Every passing day makes futurism more of a cartoon and preterism look like the only plausible view of eschatology.

I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

 

[Logos1]

Futurism, Futulity, and Cartoons

"Why do we call it futurism instead of cartoonism?"

Because instead of obsessing on your "cartoonism" (so-called) we look at the scripture (as has been done down through the ages of Christendom) which clearly portray the visible, personal and bodily return of Jesus Christ:

Act1

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.​

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.​

The Son of man (whom every eye will see) is not a Roman general but Him who was pierced (Revelation 1:7).​

HankD​

Thanks again for making my case Hank. In all these verses you didn’t find one single verse that said Christ would come back a long time in the future, another generation, or anything else that would suggest He would be a long time in coming back.

You could just give it up and admit there is no support for your position in the bible. You point out the desperation of futurism and how it relies on redefining and twisting verses that have nothing to do with a long time in returning to make your case.

Every time you cut and paste this it points out again there is no biblical support for a return other than the first generation, shortly, soon, quickly, etc. All verses on the matter say shortly, soon, quickly, etc. All the apostle’s statements in their epistles say an event such as crushing Satan would be done shortly.

So the best you can scrape up is eyeballs and clouds and they have been proven to be taken out of the context of the OT scripture they were based on and you get upset about futurism be compared to cartoons.

Hank, when I realized how bankrupt futurism is and how cartoonish the dispensational bible teachers are with their raptures, battles of Armageddon, and antichrists ruling the world I was man enough to admit I was wrong—maybe you should give some thought to the matter.

I will leave that to the superb eisegesis of Logo...Oldregular

You are obviously of superior intellect, why I guess relative to anyone on this Forum…..Oldregular

Enlighten all us poor Biblical illiterates…Oldregular

A lesser man might get discouraged in this task, but I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.