Women Teaching Men

[Christos doulos]

There are going to be those who oppose women in leadership or equality in marriage, just like there were once those who believed slavery was okay and intermarriage wrong. Their voice will get smaller and weaker until anyone who believes it wouldn't dare mention it, just like any who believe slavery is okay wouldn't dare voice it these days.

My friend. If a believer truly has Jesus Christ doing ongoing work in him, and the Holy Spirit dwelling in him then he cannot help but bear fruit. He will not think women as unequal or condone slavery etc.....It's true that man can be ignorant, but that is why we have scripture. We either accept or we don't, but if we accuse another brother or sister in Christ of abhorrent teaching then we better have scripture with proper hermeneutics to back up our accusations.

 

[Christos doulos]

Thank you for that wonderful exposition!

It's obvious who actually has contempt for the Bible here -- and it's not those of us who support women leaders in the church!

I have to say this. I am black and if I saw a scripture stating that black people cannot be spiritual leaders. I wouldn't like it and I will do my best to find scripture to refute it, but if I couldn't then I will have to resign to the fact that scripture is clear and that God; not I know best.
To do otherwise knowing I couldn't find any scripture to support me but my own emotional reasoning of wanting to do the Lord's work would be a sin and blatant disobedience on my part, and if I call people down as racists in order for them to see it my way will in no way negate the truth of scripture.

You may not like what they have to say, but know this. They are just as devoted to scripture and their God as you are and may even see women in a more favorable light than you do.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I follow the Bible that God has given us and I do not accept the "Apocrypha" as the Word of God.

Why not? Wasn't it accepted as canon for centuries.

Or why not any of the other canons?

The Books of the Bible are listed differently in the canons of Judaism and the Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, Slavonic Orthodox, Coptic, Georgian Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic, Syriac, Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox churches, although there is substantial overlap.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible

You statement is a statement of faith ... unprovable but a statement of faith.

Just curious, why not any of the others? They are as provable or unprovable as the one you and I follow.

 

[Crabtownboy]

My friend. "apostolic succession" is not biblical

I do not believe I mentioned "apostolic succession". By the way I agree with you.

 

[Christos doulos]

I do not believe I mentioned "apostolic succession". By the way I agree with you.

Ok my friend. I am confused. Were you not speculating that someone else could be an apostle?

 

[Amy.G]

Yes, take a look the disparate attitudes expressed with regard to the Scripture noted in the OP:


..............bla bla bla

Quite a contrast. :tear:

None of that has a thing to do with authority in the church!

 

[Crabtownboy]

Ok my friend. I am confused. Were you not speculating that someone else could be an apostle?

I was saying that there are those who believe that Junia, a woman, was an apostle. There is no doubt she was a committed Christian and held in very high regard by Paul. She was even in jail as a prisoner at one time.

Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

— Romans 16:7

The key to this verse is how "among the apostles, which I put in bold is interpreted. The word among may mean:

1. as one of the apostles
2. as known by other apostles

English creates a problem here as either meaning can be used. I do not know what the Greek phrase is in this verse. However, reputable scholars have written that Junia was definitely a woman and may well have been an apostle.

We do not have original texts, much the pity. There are those who say that many contributions by women were edited out of the texts to be more politically or socially correct for those times. I do not have a background to make a definitive statement, but I would not be surprised that it is true. What is the miracle is the consistency we find in thousands of manuscripts, though there are some differences.

The oldest extant manuscript gives a woman’s name, Julia. Some have tried to explain this away by saying it was an error by the scribe. I think that argument is very suspect.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Concerning the discussion on contempt of the Bible ... I do not believe anyone on the BB has contempt for the Bible. But differing interpretations is another matter. We must never be so hardened in our views that we cannot change if a deeper truth is revealed.

 

[Amy.G]

The early church fathers are not in agreement about the gender of Junia. There even seems to be evidence that strongly suggests Junia was a male. Commentaries differ on the gender. Translations differ on how Romans 16:7 is to be rendered into English. There are different uses of the Greek word "apostello" and it cannot be demonstrated conclusively into which categorical use of the term Junia should fit. Even if Junia were an apostle in the sense of having seen the risen Lord it doesn't mean she was in authority in the Church. Therefore, for someone to conclude that Junia was a woman apostle in full authority in the Church cannot be maintained from the Scriptures.

LINK

 

[Crabtownboy]

LINK

Some translations translate Junia as Junias. Junias is masculine, but no where in ancient history does the name Junias appear in any other document for several hundred years. This is explained in detail in the book, The Lost Apostle: Searching for the Truth About Junia by Rena Pederson. In other words, the translation Junias is most likely done to try to strengthen an already existing belief that women played no important parts, especially as leaders or apostles.

Junia is definitely a female name. Many believe she was the wife of Andronicus.

As I have said previously, never reject wisdom or truth regardless of who brings either to you.

Here are a number of translations:

New International Version (©1984)
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

International Standard Version (©2008)
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my fellow Jews who are in prison with me and are prominent among the apostles. They were belonged to the Messiah before I did.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Invoke the peace of Andronicus and of Junia, my relatives who were captives with me and were known by The Apostles and they were in The Messiah before me.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Greet Andronicus and Junia, who are Jewish by birth like me. They are prisoners like me and are prominent among the apostles. They also were Christians before I was.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

American King James Version
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

American Standard Version
Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners: who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Darby Bible Translation
Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles; who were also in Christ before me.

English Revised Version
Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

Webster's Bible Translation
Salute Andronicus and Junia my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Weymouth New Testament
and to Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen, who once shared my imprisonment. They are of note among the Apostles, and are Christians of longer standing than myself.

World English Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners, who are notable among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Young's Literal Translation
salute Andronicus and Junias, my kindred, and my fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

http://bible.cc/romans/16-7.htm

 

[mandym]

Umm - if I tell my husband the toilet is clogged, did I just teach him? You seriously have a weird view here.

Exactly but then should that really have to be explained? I suppose so when you are trying to stand on a house of cards.

 

[mandym]

It's kind of amusing when literalists try to reason away things when those things might deconstruct their belief system if accepted in the plain sense of their meaning.

"Tell" or "teach," the apostles learned the fact of the Resurrection from women, and one learns from being taught.

I prefer Jesus's views and practices concerning women over sexist Paul's -- you know, the person who said the single life was to be preferred to marriage?

If those Baptists and others who believe in the subjugation of women literally followed Paul's teaching here, your churches would go the way of the Shakers.

Talk about the extreme far left it doesn't get any crazier than this.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Talk about the extreme far left it doesn't get any crazier than this.

I don't know what you're talking about, and neither do you!

It's quite funny to me how those opposed to women's ordination or leadership always cast this as a liberal vs. conservative issue. Nothing could be further from the truth. The very conservative holiness and pentecostal bodies have always approved of and accepted women in leadership positions, including ordained clergy.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I vehemently disagree with most on this subject here, and yet I would not venture to say any of them have "contempt" for the Bible. They may be misguided and may be misinterpreting it, but they are following what they believe the Bible says.

I think we need to be careful how we bring subjects like this up. We need to be theologically minded and have all of our views bathed in Scripture as best as it can be interpreted.

There are going to be those who oppose women in leadership or equality in marriage, just like there were once those who believed slavery was okay and intermarriage wrong. Their voice will get smaller and weaker until anyone who believes it wouldn't dare mention it, just like any who believe slavery is okay wouldn't dare voice it these days.

I hope and believe there will come a day when those Baptists and others who have opposed women in leadership will realize that they have supported one of the saddest and most regrettable chapters in church history.

It is very sad that young women in these kinds of churches who may have gifts and a calling are told by men that they most certainly do not have this calling because they are not qualified for leadership in the church based on their being born female.

 

[annsni]

I hope and believe there will come a day when those Baptists and others who have opposed women in leadership will realize that they have supported one of the saddest and most regrettable chapters in church history.

That day will never come because it's a Biblical stance.

It is very sad that young women in these kinds of churches who may have gifts and a calling are told by men that they most certainly do not have this calling because they are not qualified for leadership in the church based on their being born female.

No one says that they are not qualified to be in leadership - just the particular leadership role of pastor and/or teacher of men is not to be taken by women.

We have a large church staff and larger ministry staff at our church. There are MANY women in leadership positions - but all under Biblical guidelines. None are in authority over men, and none teach men. However, our women have very important roles and this church would never be able to function without them. And I'm not saying that they are just secretaries either.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

That day will never come because it's a Biblical stance.


No one says that they are not qualified to be in leadership - just the particular leadership role of pastor and/or teacher of men is not to be taken by women.

We have a large church staff and larger ministry staff at our church. There are MANY women in leadership positions - but all under Biblical guidelines. None are in authority over men, and none teach men. However, our women have very important roles and this church would never be able to function without them. And I'm not saying that they are just secretaries either.

A Biblical stance -- just like the support of slavery was once considered, huh?

 

[mandym]

A Biblical stance -- just like the support of slavery was once considered, huh?

See now you have convinced everyone to join your view with your false comparison.

 

[Christos doulos]

A Biblical stance -- just like the support of slavery was once considered, huh?

My friend. You are quite right that there were those who used the bible to support slavery, but they twisted scripture; practicing bad hermeneutics.

Please show where we have twisted scripture or practiced bad hermeneutics, because in the end scripture is all that matters.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

My friend. You are quite right that there were those who used the bible to support slavery, but they twisted scripture; practicing bad hermeneutics.

Please show where we have twisted scripture or practiced bad hermeneutics, because in the end scripture is all that matters.

That's already been shown.

But I must tell you that I like the respectful way you post. I can have a meaningful discussion with folks like you.

Thanks!

 

[jaigner]

That day will never come because it's a Biblical stance.

I wouldn't be so sure. We can argue if it's a false comparison, but many Baptists, believed slavery, as well as segregation, were biblical, and they believed it with all the same fervor with which you hold your beliefs. That number is likely very small now, even when the Southern Baptists were led by a bunch of arrogant and racist men not half a century ago.

Again, I can't say for certain that everyone will, but I would bet the majority of Baptist strands will have amended their positions in a generation or two.

My parent's SBC generation is rapidly dying out. The SBC folks my age are getting fed up and leaving to the neo-reformed crowd or emergents. It's changing faster than you know.

Every generation has its blind spots. That doesn't excuse them, but it will give an explanation when, 100 years from now, Baptists will wonder what the heck we were thinking.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I wouldn't be so sure. We can argue if it's a false comparison, but many Baptists, believed slavery, as well as segregation, were biblical, and they believed it with all the same fervor with which you hold your beliefs. That number is likely very small now, even when the Southern Baptists were led by a bunch of arrogant and racist men not half a century ago.

Again, I can't say for certain that everyone will, but I would bet the majority of Baptist strands will have amended their positions in a generation or two.

My parent's SBC generation is rapidly dying out. The SBC folks my age are getting fed up and leaving to the neo-reformed crowd or emergents. It's changing faster than you know.

Every generation has its blind spots. That doesn't excuse them, but it will give an explanation when, 100 years from now, Baptists will wonder what the heck we were thinking.

I feel sorry for the women living now who have to suffer the inability to follow their gifts and calling.