Women Teaching Men

[annsni]

I wouldn't be so sure. We can argue if it's a false comparison, but many Baptists, believed slavery, as well as segregation, were biblical, and they believed it with all the same fervor with which you hold your beliefs. That number is likely very small now, even when the Southern Baptists were led by a bunch of arrogant and racist men not half a century ago.

Again, I can't say for certain that everyone will, but I would bet the majority of Baptist strands will have amended their positions in a generation or two.

My parent's SBC generation is rapidly dying out. The SBC folks my age are getting fed up and leaving to the neo-reformed crowd or emergents. It's changing faster than you know.

Every generation has its blind spots. That doesn't excuse them, but it will give an explanation when, 100 years from now, Baptists will wonder what the heck we were thinking.

Just because the culture changes doesn't mean the Word of God changes. If God's Word said that slavery was right and what we should do, then we should do it. Scripture really can't be more clear about a woman's role in the church and in marriage. We can never change that.

 

[annsni]

I feel sorry for the women living now who have to suffer the inability to follow their gifts and calling.

I have not seen one woman in my church "suffer the inability to follow their gifts and calling". As a matter of fact, I've not only been able to use my gifts as have the other women in the church but we've been challenged to be stretched even more than we thought we could!!

I feel sorry for the women living in disobedience and defiance to God's Word.

 

[Iconoclast]

I feel sorry for the women living now who have to suffer the inability to follow their gifts and calling.

God has not called any woman into the ministry...any woman who claims this is in direct rebellion to 1 tim 2;11-15....there is no option here.

 

[Crabtownboy]

God has not called any woman into the ministry...any woman who claims this is in direct rebellion to 1 tim 2;11-15....there is no option here.

Wrong! You cannot be honest and build a doctrine on one verse.

 

[jaigner]

Just because the culture changes doesn't mean the Word of God changes. If God's Word said that slavery was right and what we should do, then we should do it. Scripture really can't be more clear about a woman's role in the church and in marriage. We can never change that.

*Ahem* They believed it with the same fervor as you do your position, and based their opinion on as much Scripture as you base yours. Your claiming that you think Scripture is clear on the issue doesn't mean it is so. Many, including a majority of non-SBC evangelicals, disagree with you.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast....

God has not called any woman into the ministry...any woman who claims this is in direct rebellion to 1 tim 2;11-15....there is no option

Just like not to too long ago THIS was the accepted view by the vast majority of good bible believing christians in America...

God has not called any of those "coloreds" to live free, and anyone who says different is in direct rebellion...there is no option.

And they were armed with scripture to support it

Why do you support the latter, and lot thr former?

 

[annsni]

*Ahem* They believed it with the same fervor as you do your position, and based their opinion on as much Scripture as you base yours. Your claiming that you think Scripture is clear on the issue doesn't mean it is so. Many, including a majority of non-SBC evangelicals, disagree with you.

Oh? Paul had a verse that said "I want every believer to own a slave."?

 

[annsni]

And they were armed with scripture to support it

Why do you support the latter, and lot thr former?

I'd like to see the Scripture.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

God has not called any woman into the ministry...any woman who claims this is in direct rebellion to 1 tim 2;11-15....there is no option here.

There isn't even wiggle room. 1Peter 3;7,1Corinthians 14;34 & 35,

God is not the author of confusion. The doctrine is not built on one verse. Satan will use anything he can to get Christians to rebel.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I'd like to see the Scripture.

Scripture supporting slavery:

Paul's violation of the Mosaic Code on slavery:

While in prison, Paul met a runaway slave, Onesimus, the property of a Christian -- presumably Pheliemon. He sent the slave back to his owner. This action is forbidden in Deuteronomy 23:15-16:

"Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee."

"He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him."

Rather than give the slave sanctuary, Paul returned him to his owner. Paul seems to hint that he would like Pheliemon to give Onesimus his freedom, but does not actually request it. See the Letter to Philemon in the Christian Scriptures.

Other references to slavery in the Christian Scriptures:

People in debt (and their children) were still being sold into slavery in the first century CE:
bullet Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."

Priests still owned slaves:
bullet Mark 14:66: "And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:"

Jesus is recorded as mentioning slaves in one of his parables. It is important to realize that the term "servant" or "maid" in the King James Version of the Bible refers to slaves, not employees like a butler, cook, or maid. Here, a slave which did not follow his owner's will would be beaten with many lashes of a whip. A slave who was unaware of his owner's will, but who did not behave properly, would also be beaten, but with fewer stripes.

This would have been a marvelous opportunity for Jesus to condemn the institution of slavery and its abuse of slaves. But he is not recorded of having bothered to taken it:
bullet Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

One of the favorite passages of slave-owning Christians was St. Paul's infamous instruction that slaves to obey their owners in the same way that they obey Christ:
bullet Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

Other passages instructing slaves and slave owners in proper behavior are:
bullet Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

bullet 1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"

In his defense, St. Paul incorrectly expected that Jesus would return in the very near future. This might have demotivated him from speaking out against slavery or other social evils in the Roman Empire. Also he regarded slaves as persons of worth whom at least God considers of importance. St. Paul mentioned that both slaves and free persons are sons of God, and thus all part of the body of Christ and spiritually equal.
bullet 1 Corinthians 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

bullet Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

bullet Colossians 3:11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Paul apparently saw no evil in the concept of one person owning another as a piece of property. In his Letter to Philemon, he had every opportunity to discuss the immorality of slave-owning, but declined to do so.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm

 

[Alive in Christ]

Ansni....I posted regarding christians in the past quoting scripture that supported salvery, and you responded...

I'd like to see the Scripture.

These would surely be included...

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

 

[Bro. Curtis]

So are you saying God doesn't want slaves treated in the manner he described, any longer ? He changed his mind about slaves AND women preachers ?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I've never met so many who know the mind of God and can speak for Him. And just to think, all this time I've been praying and reading the Bible, and I could have come here to find out what God really says and means!

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Is that your answer ?

 

[annsni]

Ansni....I posted regarding christians in the past quoting scripture that supported salvery, and you responded...







These would surely be included...

So we are looking to Old Testament law for how we are to act in New Testament times? Additionally, when we read the Old Testament law on slavery, we see it is WORLDS different than what slavery was in the Americas. Finally, we see in Paul's letter to Philemon about how we deal with slaves. Yes, he tells us that if we are a slave, we are to obey those in authority over us - just as we are told to do elsewhere. No where in the New Testament are we told to get slaves, encourage slavery or anything. Instead we see Paul encouraging Onesimus' owners to accept him back not as a slave but as a brother. Interesting.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Does God want slaves to DISOBEY their masters, now that the expiration date on 1Timothy is passed ?

 

[annsni]

Scripture supporting slavery:

Well, the Religious Tolerance website has very skewed information and I've read MANY erroneous ideas there so I will not use them as supporting proof.

 

[jaigner]

Does God want slaves to DISOBEY their masters, now that the expiration date on 1Timothy is passed ?

Nobody is suggesting that 1 Timothy has expired. Nobody. This issue is in interpretation.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Did Timothy preach in Corinth ?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Let me answer. No. He preached at Ephesus.

Yet the Corinthians recieve the same set of commands.