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Did God "Change" With the Incarnation?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Absolutely not.
Are you saying God did not in fact, become a man and remains the perfect God-man in heaven today?
I think this is one of the great mysteries of scripture that should make us be grateful that God, who existed eternally as Father, Son, and H.S. Would now choose to exist as Father, Son (who is also now Fully Man), and H.S.
I would say God DID change, if you describe the change as the fact that The Son took on Humanness. He did not lose his diety, but added humanity...I would go on to say that when we say God is unchangeable, he is only unchangeable in the ways that scripture tells us he is unchangeable.
Yeah, I'm going wiith two things here: 1) the OP was asking about God (not the Godhead) and 2) God (the Father) is immutable.
Here's the thing. Even if we extend the OP to cover Jesus, which is dubious because of lack of clarity (no surprises here), we still have to come to the conclusion that Jesus' divinity was unchanged through the incarnation.
The members of the Trinity are one in unity through distinct in essence. They are not ontologically physical in that essence. (I take a rather Augustinian approach to my Trinitarianism.)
As Jesus' divine essence (i.e. His divine being) filled the human form at the incarnation (the image here is of water being poured from one glass into another) his ontological essence did not change. He remained fully, completely, uniquely, entirely divine as He has been in this uncreated, eternal state. The humanity which was indwelt by the incarnation was, likewise, unchanged in the ontological sense. Through the hypostatic union both divine essence and human flesh were fused together in a union that facilitated both of their expressions without dimunition of fidelity.
Maybe this is where we're getting messed up. I thought (since I assumed this is the nature of the OP's question...maybe I'm assuming too much) this is a discussion about the ontological nature of the divine nature. Maybe I'm wrong.
If we grant that Jesus did condescend into human form (which i suppose we all do) and grant the early church confession about His totality of essence and person in that incarnation, we must, therefore, grant that He is unchanged in this action (ontologically/metaphysically.) Otherwise Jesus' divine nature becomes contingent or His humanity become necessary...that is problematic for other (profound) issues.
God never changes. He is always God. He took on a physcial body yet He was still fully God. I change clothes everyday but that does not mean I have changed. Our flesh is animated by us, We live in our flesh but our flesh with out our spirit is dead just like the clothes we wear.
MB
actually, was MORE then just God assuming flesh and human form...
Not JUST God in flesh, but still JUST God....
God took on full humanity, so jesus has BOTH natures of God and Human co existing at same time!
Fully God, Fully Human....
That would qualify as God changing, wouldn't it?
We know that God changed his mind a number of times in the OT.
With the incarnation God experienced first hand what it was to live as a human. Did he change? Define what you mean by change.
With the incarnation God experienced first hand what it was to live as a human. Did he change? Define what you mean by change.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Jesus layed down His Godly authority to become like us. He is our example as a man in perfect relationship with the Father, as Adam once was.
God does not change. Let me repeat, God does not change. He doesn't change his mind. He doesn't change.
Malachi 3:6a "For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"
See also
Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Isaiah 46:9-11; Ezekiel 24:14. James 1:17
Malachi 3:6a "For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"
See also
Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Isaiah 46:9-11; Ezekiel 24:14. James 1:17
so did God change by becoming a Human, and dwelling among us?
did he become something that He was NEVER before?
God does not change. Let me repeat, God does not change. He doesn't change his mind. He doesn't change.
Malachi 3:6a "For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?"
See also
Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Isaiah 46:9-11; Ezekiel 24:14. James 1:17
The sky is blue..
So, what color is the sky?
um blue
I think what JF is trying to ask is what form was Jesus in before the incarnation? Was He in physical form like He was on earth? Is He in physical form now?
There are several Christophonies (sp?) in the OT, so apparently He was a physical person before the incarnation.
Quite frankly, I've never given this a lot of thought. But it's interesting to think about.
There are several Christophonies (sp?) in the OT, so apparently He was a physical person before the incarnation.
Quite frankly, I've never given this a lot of thought. But it's interesting to think about.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Is this really a legitimate question? Scripture tells us:
Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not;
If you believe the Bible then you have to believe that God has changed his mind ...
So we see that God does change his mind. In fact Moses argued with God and God changed his mind about destroying the children of Israel.
I agree God does not change.
Did this God that does not change impregnate the egg/seed of a virgin named Mary and after about nine months did she bring forth a man child named Jesus the seed of Abraham the seed of David and yet the only begotten son of God, who also called himself the Son of man?
Lets talk a little about the following concerning this Son of man the only begotten of the Father God.
Is the following prophetic?
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:
Does that prophesy the Son of man would die, be buried and be resurrected?
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
If that part of his baptism was prophetic and I believe it to be, what about this part? "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten (born) thee.
Acts 2:36 that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. YLT Rom 1:3,4 concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh, who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;
saying, `What do ye think concerning the Christ? of whom is he son?' They say to him, `Of David.' He saith to them, `How then doth David in the Spirit call him lord, saying, The Lord said to my lord, Sit at my right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool? If then David doth call him lord, how is he his son?'
Was there a moment in time when David's son became David's Lord?
God (ever how many persons you want to assign him) created the first man Adam a living soul and he was the figure (type) of him to come the last Adam the only begotten son of God, of a woman, a living soul, Jesus, and he died and was the firstborn once living soul from the dead by the Spirit God.
That is my understanding and I still do not believe God changed.
Did this God that does not change impregnate the egg/seed of a virgin named Mary and after about nine months did she bring forth a man child named Jesus the seed of Abraham the seed of David and yet the only begotten son of God, who also called himself the Son of man?
Lets talk a little about the following concerning this Son of man the only begotten of the Father God.
Is the following prophetic?
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:
Does that prophesy the Son of man would die, be buried and be resurrected?
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
If that part of his baptism was prophetic and I believe it to be, what about this part? "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten (born) thee.
Acts 2:36 that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. YLT Rom 1:3,4 concerning His Son, (who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh, who is marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of sanctification, by the rising again from the dead,) Jesus Christ our Lord;
saying, `What do ye think concerning the Christ? of whom is he son?' They say to him, `Of David.' He saith to them, `How then doth David in the Spirit call him lord, saying, The Lord said to my lord, Sit at my right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool? If then David doth call him lord, how is he his son?'
Was there a moment in time when David's son became David's Lord?
God (ever how many persons you want to assign him) created the first man Adam a living soul and he was the figure (type) of him to come the last Adam the only begotten son of God, of a woman, a living soul, Jesus, and he died and was the firstborn once living soul from the dead by the Spirit God.
That is my understanding and I still do not believe God changed.
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If you believe the Bible then you have to believe that God has changed his mind ...[/quote]I just quoted a verse that says he doesn't. So Yes, I believe the Bible.
Numbers 23:19 "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
While from our perspective, God may "change his mind." In his, he doesn't. God is omniscient. There is no changing a mind when you are omniscient. Did God already know he wasn't going to extend Hezekiah life? Yes. He knew about the prayer and had already decided to extend the life after the prayer. So, from Hezekiah perspective, it would seem as if God changed his mind. In reality, it wasn't.
However, this thread was about God changing in regards to the incarnation of Christ and not about God changing his mind.
Numbers 23:19 "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
While from our perspective, God may "change his mind." In his, he doesn't. God is omniscient. There is no changing a mind when you are omniscient. Did God already know he wasn't going to extend Hezekiah life? Yes. He knew about the prayer and had already decided to extend the life after the prayer. So, from Hezekiah perspective, it would seem as if God changed his mind. In reality, it wasn't.
However, this thread was about God changing in regards to the incarnation of Christ and not about God changing his mind.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
God is Spirit, what was in the incarnate Christ did not change He just took on flesh a veil of flesh. If we seen him without this veil we would die.
I do believe that this flesh of God we will see and i believe it is the lamb in heaven. We will see the scars He suffered for us.
Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[That is, the sevenfold Spirit] of God sent out into all the earth.
Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ ”
Revelation 21:14
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
How it will be we will know one day.
I do believe that this flesh of God we will see and i believe it is the lamb in heaven. We will see the scars He suffered for us.
Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[That is, the sevenfold Spirit] of God sent out into all the earth.
Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ ”
Revelation 21:14
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
How it will be we will know one day.
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I just quoted a verse that says he doesn't. So Yes, I believe the Bible.
Numbers 23:19 "God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
While from our perspective, God may "change his mind." In his, he doesn't. God is omniscient. There is no changing a mind when you are omniscient. Did God already know he wasn't going to extend Hezekiah life? Yes. He knew about the prayer and had already decided to extend the life after the prayer. So, from Hezekiah perspective, it would seem as if God changed his mind. In reality, it wasn't.
However, this thread was about God changing in regards to the incarnation of Christ and not about God changing his mind.[/QUOTE]
Did God The Son have physical form in heaven before the Incarnation?
was Hhe both human and God before the Incarnation?
God the Son took on humanity forever at the Incarnation...
God now had 2 natures in Him...
Did change!
I appreciate the fact that JesusFan brings the focus back to the original OP, and that is the nature of Christ. I don't agree with your position however, JF.
How about the rest of you? Specifically, those of you who recognize that God does not essentially change - and yet insist on a Christ returning with part human essence.
Is it not an incredible change for God - speaking of Jesus now - to go from being pure spirit before the Incarnation to being now (after the Incarnation) God-Man?