By One Man's Disobedience Many Were Made Sinners

[The Biblicist]

Every last text you use is abused or jerked out of context.

1. ADULT Israelites are called "children of Israel"

2. Luke 15 is specifically addressed to Pharisees and Scribes who do not see themselves as sinners, lost or need of repentance.

3. Scriptures that clearly and explicitly state man is born a sinner by nature (Job 14,1,5; 12:14; 28:3; Psa. 53; 58) you have to explain away. Metaphors used by the writers to describe infants from birth are the same exact metaphors used to describe the sinful nature (Rom. 3:13-17).

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Jacob and Esau were quite alive when this was said, and Paul said they had done no evil. If a child is aborted at this stage, would they have any sin?

Here is a perfect example of pure abuse of a text. The text is descriptive of God's purpose of election PRIOR to their birth not AFTER their birth or does Paul's words "not yet born" have no meaning to you?

You twist every text to fit your errors and pervert every text that exposes your errors.

 

[DHK]

I agree the death means separation and that an unregenerate person can hear God and believe. I am in complete agreement with you here.

But the father said the prodigal son was DEAD and is alive AGAIN, he was LOST but now found. This is describing a lost sinner. But he did not start out dead, he started out alive in his father's house, but left of his own volition, fell into sin, and was joined to a citizen of that far country.

The prodigal son left home. To the father he was lost, or dead--not unregenerate, but separated from the father.
The prodigal son came to his senses--repented (as a believer). He returned home. His fellowship was restored. Thus in the mind of his father he was "alive again." 1. son and alive. 2. separation 3. repentance. 4. alive again and still a son, just not separated from the father. He is reunited.

It doesn't say we are born dead, children of wrath. It says we were dead in trespasses and sins that we WALKED in.

Does it have to?
What do you want it to say?
Perhaps: Man was "hatched" as children of wrath.
Does it really have to spell it out for you. "children of wrath" means just what it says. Children are born not hatched, and they are born with a sin nature--without spiritual life.

You have to commit sin to be guilty of sin, Adam's sin is not imputed to you, sin is imputed to you because you WALKED in sin, you committed sin.

That is false, and you can't demonstrate it Biblically.
We are responsible for our sin.
We also have a sin nature that makes us prone to sin.
The sin nature is inherited from Adam, called our Adamic nature.

If your theology were right why don't we see sinless people walking the earth. There are more than six billion people on this earth, and none that are sinless. If they are born righteous, why can't they live or stay righteous. Your theology is flawed from the beginning. When is their first sin committed. Going by the OT, it is 20 right? But you have children, so you know by experience that the Word of God is wrong there. Is the age of accountability at 20 as the OT teaches? Do you agree? Does that hold true for 17 year old rapists and murderers?

There is not one word in this passage that says you were born dead in sins, or born a child of wrath. It attributes our spiritual death to having WALKED in sins. By the way, a newborn child cannot walk.

"children of wrath...children of disobedience"
--not one word??

You just don't get it, you don't have to have a sin nature to sin. Satan was created perfect, yet he sinned. The fallen angels were "very good", yet they sinned. Adam and Eve were "very good" yet they sinned. You simply cannot shake Augustine's false doctrine, the scriptures clearly show you do not have to be born with a sin nature to sin. All you need to sin is a free will, and a lack of faith. If Adam and Eve would have believed God and not trusted the devil, they would not have sinned.

We, in case you didn't realize it, were born into this world.
The others you mentioned were all created beings. Therein lies the difference. Adam and Eve were created, and perfectly created. They fell. As a result came under a curse, of which we are a part of. We are not created. We are the offspring of Adam. We descended from Adam. We are now made in Adam's image. And even thought the Bible states that (Gen.5:3), you don't accept it. Why?

Again, FALSE. The scriptures themselves PROVE you do not have to have a sin nature to sin. You simply cannot grasp this.

And again, we are not created beings. We are under a curse. We wait for our redemption. We will not escape this old nature until the resurrection occurs. As Paul said:
"Oh wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from the body of this death."
--That old nature dwelt within him, and had dwelt within him since birth.
[quote\And calling me a Pelagian is what folks do when they can't defend their views. I present scripture for all of my views. You simply can't understand my views because you have been conditioned by RCC doctrine (which is where Original Sin came from). [/quote]
I understand it perfectly.
NOTE: Pelagianism is an age-old heresy, older than Augustine, that has historically denied Original sin and the depravity of man, both of which are taught in the Bible. If you think these were inventions of Augustine then you may as well attribute the trinity to him as well. Why not just become a Catholic. The fact is that all three doctrines are taught in the Bible.

As I have showed several times, the scriptures show infants belong to God, he calls them "my children".

--Yes, he calls me his "child" also. (John 1:12). Thanks for the humor.

Eze 16:20

Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

If you understand who "my children" are in this verse, then you will understand who the elder son is in the parable of the prodigal son. The elder son NEVER sinned. Who could say such a thing? An infant who was killed before he could do wrong.

Apples and oranges. I don't think you have read that chapter and understand what the Lord is talking about. It is a chapter about judgement, and he is describing the nation of Israel very graphically. It has no comparison to the prodigal son, a parable.

Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Jacob and Esau were quite alive when this was said, and Paul said they had done no evil. If a child is aborted at this stage, would they have any sin?

This is nonsense. Paul is referring back to a prophetic passage of the OT to demonstrate the sovereign grace of God in election.

We are judged for what we do, not for being born flesh.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

I don't expect you to understand what I am talking about.

Are you teaching salvation by works now?
The verse speaks about the judgement seat of Christ.
That has nothing to do with original sin nor the depravity of man.

You have abused, misused so many verses, this is really hard to fathom.

 

[Winman]

The prodigal son left home. To the father he was lost, or dead--not unregenerate, but separated from the father.
The prodigal son came to his senses--repented (as a believer). He returned home. His fellowship was restored. Thus in the mind of his father he was "alive again." 1. son and alive. 2. separation 3. repentance. 4. alive again and still a son, just not separated from the father. He is reunited.

False, Jesus is describing lost sinners from the beginning of these 3 stories which are one parable.

Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Does it have to?
What do you want it to say?
Perhaps: Man was "hatched" as children of wrath.
Does it really have to spell it out for you. "children of wrath" means just what it says. Children are born not hatched, and they are born with a sin nature--without spiritual life.

You are ASSUMING a person is born dead, you are inserting your presupposition. It says we were dead in trespasses and sins, wherein in time past ye WALKED. You overlook that word as though it is meaningless, when it is explaining how we died. It says not one word about being born dead in sins, you assume that on your own.

That is false, and you can't demonstrate it Biblically.
We are responsible for our sin.
We also have a sin nature that makes us prone to sin.
The sin nature is inherited from Adam, called our Adamic nature.

If your theology were right why don't we see sinless people walking the earth. There are more than six billion people on this earth, and none that are sinless. If they are born righteous, why can't they live or stay righteous. Your theology is flawed from the beginning. When is their first sin committed. Going by the OT, it is 20 right? But you have children, so you know by experience that the Word of God is wrong there. Is the age of accountability at 20 as the OT teaches? Do you agree? Does that hold true for 17 year old rapists and murderers?

It is you that gives all men an excuse for sin, you believe we are born with a sin nature that compels us to sin. The scriptures never say that.

The fact that no man goes without sin proves nothing. Adam and Eve were created very good, they had no sin nature, yet they sinned the very first time they were tempted. What makes you think any other man would do better? They lived in a pure world with only one law and one temptation and sinned, we live in a filthy world with many laws and thousands of temptations.

"children of wrath...children of disobedience"
--not one word??

We become children of wrath when we are disobedient.

We, in case you didn't realize it, were born into this world.
The others you mentioned were all created beings. Therein lies the difference. Adam and Eve were created, and perfectly created. They fell. As a result came under a curse, of which we are a part of. We are not created. We are the offspring of Adam. We descended from Adam. We are now made in Adam's image. And even thought the Bible states that (Gen.5:3), you don't accept it. Why?

You are a created being too. I have already shown scripture that says our spirits and souls come from God. We inherit our body only from our parents.

We are also called the offspring of God.

--Yes, he calls me his "child" also. (John 1:12). Thanks for the humor.

God was speaking of infants who were sacrificed to idols. He says they were “borne unto me”, they belonged to God.. God calls these innocent children, “my children”.

Apples and oranges. I don't think you have read that chapter and understand what the Lord is talking about. It is a chapter about judgement, and he is describing the nation of Israel very graphically. It has no comparison to the prodigal son, a parable.

And I believe it is you that does not understand.

This is nonsense. Paul is referring back to a prophetic passage of the OT to demonstrate the sovereign grace of God in election.

You simply deny the clear words of scripture, Jacob and Esau were without sin. They had “done” no evil.

Are you teaching salvation by works now?
The verse speaks about the judgement seat of Christ.
That has nothing to do with original sin nor the depravity of man.

You have abused, misused so many verses, this is really hard to fathom

Of course not, but we are judged according to what we have done, whether good or evil. Aren’t you judged a sinner if you lie, or if you steal? You believe that, how does that make salvation by works?

And I am completely certain you can fathom none of this, because you cannot escape Augustine’s false doctrine.

 

[convicted1]

False, Jesus is describing lost sinners from the beginning of these 3 stories which are one parable.

Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.


You are ASSUMING a person is born dead, you are inserting your presupposition. It says we were dead in trespasses and sins, wherein in time past ye WALKED. You overlook that word as though it is meaningless, when it is explaining how we died. It says not one word about being born dead in sins, you assume that on your own.



It is you that gives all men an excuse for sin, you believe we are born with a sin nature that compels us to sin. The scriptures never say that.

The fact that no man goes without sin proves nothing. Adam and Eve were created very good, they had no sin nature, yet they sinned the very first time they were tempted. What makes you think any other man would do better? They lived in a pure world with only one law and one temptation and sinned, we live in a filthy world with many laws and thousands of temptations.




We become children of wrath when we are disobedient.



You are a created being too. I have already shown scripture that says our spirits and souls come from God. We inherit our body only from our parents.

We are also called the offspring of God.



God was speaking of infants who were sacrificed to idols. He says they were “borne unto me”, they belonged to God.. God calls these innocent children, “my children”.

[/COLOR]

And I believe it is you that does not understand.



You simply deny the clear words of scripture, Jacob and Esau were without sin. They had “done” no evil.



Of course not, but we are judged according to what we have done, whether good or evil. Aren’t you judged a sinner if you lie, or if you steal? You believe that, how does that make salvation by works?

And I am completely certain you can fathom none of this, because you cannot escape Augustine’s false doctrine.

Very well articulated Brother Winman!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[savedbymercy]

win

You are ASSUMING a person is born dead, you are inserting your presupposition. It says we were dead in trespasses and sins, wherein in time past ye WALKED.

Thats being born dead, being born dead in trespasses and sins, seperated or alienated from the Life of God. Thats what being dead means.

When the prodigal was alienated or estranged from his Father, he was dead ! Thats why upon his repentance and return the Father stated, my son who was dead Lk 15:24

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Now all men are born alienated from the Life of God ! Col 1:21

Colossians 1:21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled


Born dead in Sin Eph 2:5

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

 

[The Biblicist]

These parables have a specific type of person in view (vv. 1-2). They are specifically given by Christ and directed by Christ to self-righteous hypocrits who see others as "sinners" but not themselves.

You simply choose to ignore the obvious and explicit and specific subjects these parables are aimed at.

They are not aimed at "sinners" in general but at those who do not perceive themselves as "sinners" but only see others as "sinners." It is aimed directly at those who deny they have any need of repentance but see themselves as God's children already without the need of a Savior.

Luke 15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

Compare this with Luke 5:29-32

29 And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them.
30 But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Take note this emphasis which resounds in all three parables:

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Note that the lost sheep was brought HOME but the 99 sheep were LEFT in the field (world).

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me;

No one denies there is an age of accountability where each person makes a willful and independent choice to separate himself from God through willful sin. This parable is directed towards ADULTS not children and infants (vv. 1-2). That is the obvious and explicit contextual application.

However, it is a straw man argument to suggest that every scripture designed to instruct us in the age of accountable actions must repudiate a fallen nature at birth. We believe BOTH without conflict or contradiction and the scriptures teach both as found in their own particular context.

This is not a context that discusses the nature of man at birth but rather a context that discusses accountability for personal actions. We do not believe that infants are held accountable for their actions until the age of accountability but that does not deny they are born with a fallen nature.

All these parables prove is the contextual application they are designed to prove - repentance is required to be saved and all humans capable of intentional sin are accountable to repent.

You simply ignore the explicit contextual application - RESPONSIBLE ADULTS who see no need of personal repentance - v. 2

False, Jesus is describing lost sinners from the beginning of these 3 stories which are one parable.

 

[DHK]

False, Jesus is describing lost sinners from the beginning of these 3 stories which are one parable.

It is a parable. Does not the term "prodigal" mean anything to you?

You are ASSUMING a person is born dead, you are inserting your presupposition.

Rather you are inserting a presupposition that a child isn't born! Ridiculous! Tell me what kind of spiritual life an infant has. How does the infant communicate with God? How great a faith does he demonstrate. Will the infant be considered one of the heroes of the faith?
Winman--the infant is spiritually dead. There is no spiritual life in the infant. Give evidence of that in Scripture--valid evidence of real active spiritual life.

It says we were dead in trespasses and sins, wherein in time past ye WALKED. You overlook that word as though it is meaningless, when it is explaining how we died.

After a person is born they learn to walk. They walk in the ways that they have learned from infancy. Why is it that no person on earth has never walked a sinless life except for Christ? Why? Because they are born with a sin nature, and they walk according to it. The actions are not necessarily simultaneous. We take one step at a time. We also learn from our parents. But our sin nature contributes much. We lie from the day we are born. So the Bible says.

It says not one word about being born dead in sins, you assume that on your own.

There is not one verse about anyone being born with spiritual life. They are born as children of wrath. It is understood. How does a child become a child of wrath unless he is born? Is he "hatched"? Come from another source???

It is you that gives all men an excuse for sin,

Same argument that those who deny OSAS use. hmmm.

you believe we are born with a sin nature that compels us to sin. The scriptures never say that.

No, you reject what the Bible says on the doctrine of the sin nature and choose to believe the heresy of Pelagianism instead. A sin nature does not compel one to sin; it makes them prone to sin. Man must still take responsibility for his own actions. If your beliefs were true we would see sinless people on this earth. But we don't. Why aren't you sinless? Or, are you? Why couldn't you live up to your own expectations of sinlessness from infancy onward? Why did you have to go and sin? You should be ashamed of ruining your own theology.

The fact that no man goes without sin proves nothing. Adam and Eve were created very good, they had no sin nature, yet they sinned the very first time they were tempted. What makes you think any other man would do better? They lived in a pure world with only one law and one temptation and sinned, we live in a filthy world with many laws and thousands of temptations.

All of your examples are complete red herrings.
Every time I point this fallacy out to you, you ignore it and repeat it again and again. Adam, Eve, Lucifer, the angels, etc. were are all created beings. The cannot be compared to a fallen race, all of whom were born from the seed of Adam, born not created. Why can't you see that difference. We bear the image of Adam, not of God. God's image has been marred.

We become children of wrath when we are disobedient.

Why a denial of Scripture (Eph.2:2,3)? That is not what it says! You directly deny Scripture. Why?

You are a created being too. I have already shown scripture that says our spirits and souls come from God. We inherit our body only from our parents.

You are deceived. We are not created beings. Have you been studying under Mormon teachers? Outside of the Book of Ecclesiastes, you have nothing. And since you refuse to study the context of that book and remain completely clueless about its contents, your conclusions are totally invalid.

We are also called the offspring of God.

That is what Paul told the Athenians on Mars Hill, as he quoted one of the Grecian poets. It was the Greek poet that said that we are "the offspring of God." Paul used it, as he used it in connection with the "unknown god." Do you also worship an "unknown god." Isn't it great to take Scripture out of context?

God was speaking of infants who were sacrificed to idols. He says they were “borne unto me”, they belonged to God.. God calls these innocent children, “my children”.

How easily you ignore context. The entire nation of Israel were God's children, no matter what age they were. They were the children of God. God was listing their offenses and the reasons that they would receive judgment. Why do you ignore context.
As I said, "I also am his child." I also was borne into God's family.

And I believe it is you that does not understand.

As noted above I am the one that understood. Tell me, Are you a child of God? Do you know good from evil? If you do know good from evil, then you wouldn't be a child of God would you? That is according to your reasoning.

You simply deny the clear words of scripture, Jacob and Esau were without sin. They had “done” no evil.

Not many infants in their mothers womb commit actual acts of sin. I have no argument there. That doesn't refute the sin nature of man. From the beginning God "hated" Esau. Why? From the day of his birth he would give into his sin nature, and when the time came he would refuse spiritual things, and allow his carnal nature to rule over him. When it came time for Jacob to make a decision, Jacob chose spiritual things over the carnal. He became a "prince with God" (Israel). Even then he still had to keep his sin nature under check.

Of course not, but we are judged according to what we have done, whether good or evil. Aren’t you judged a sinner if you lie, or if you steal? You believe that, how does that make salvation by works?

The judgment seat of Christ is a complete red herring to the doctrines of original sin and the depravity of man. You are lost in outer space somewhere. It is the redeemed that stand before Christ and will be judged for their works. What has that got to do with the depravity of man? Absolutely nothing!!

And I am completely certain you can fathom none of this, because you cannot escape Augustine’s false doctrine.

What I can't fathom is your twisting of Scripture, taking out of context Scripture, manipulation of Scripture. Your behavior on this board is more like one who belongs to a cult (though I hate to say that), because of your abuse of Scripture.

 

[Winman]

win

Thats being born dead, being born dead in trespasses and sins, seperated or alienated from the Life of God. Thats what being dead means.

When the prodigal was alienated or estranged from his Father, he was dead ! Thats why upon his repentance and return the Father stated, my son who was dead Lk 15:24

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

No, it says we were dead in trespasses and sins wherein we walked. It does not say we were dead in trespasses and sins wherein we were born. The word "walked" denotes action. It means we committed actual sin. Romans 9:11 proves that little children commiit no sin, the scriptures say Jacob and Esau had DONE no evil. They had not WALKED in evil yet. Now, of course, when they got older, both boys sinned as we all do.

Now all men are born alienated from the Life of God ! Col 1:21

You prove my point, look at the words I have highlighted in red.

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

You see, it is our wicked works that have alienated us from God, we were not born alienated from God. How can you overlook this?

Born dead in Sin Eph 2:5

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

It does not say BORN dead, it simply says we WERE dead IN SINS. Do you see that? IN SINS means sins we have committed.

Everybody here is inserting words not shown in scripture and ignoring the actual words shown. Never do the scriptures ever say a person is born dead in sins. They say we are dead in our sins wherein we "walked", they say we are alienated "by wicked works". A newborn baby can commit no wicked work, they have no concept of good and evil, it is impossible for them to choose to do evil until they understand what evil is.

Isa 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Do you understand what this verse is saying? There is a point in time when a child matures and understands between good and evil and makes a choice. This is when a child becomes a moral agent responsible for his actions. But there is a time when a little child does not know between good and evil, and can therefore make no choice to sin.

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Little children do not know between good and evil. They cannot be held responsible, because they do not know what they are doing. And this is exactly the case here, God allowed those who were children to enter the promised land, but all the adults were cursed to die in the wilderness for their sin.

 

[DHK]

Deut 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Little children do not know between good and evil. They cannot be held responsible, because they do not know what they are doing. And this is exactly the case here, God allowed those who were children to enter the promised land, where all the adults were cursed to die in the wilderness for their sin.

You would have us believe then, that all people 20 years and under, should be classified as "infants." This is who Moses was addressing or speaking about--the ones "children," 20 years and under, which you say "had no knowledge between good and evil." Don't you think you have twisted the meaning here and taken it out of context.

The meaning: "had no knowledge between good and evil"--concerning the events of going into the Promised Land; no knowledge of the bad report; no knowledge of the reports of Joshua and Caleb, etc. They were not the ones that made the decisions at that time, and were not held accountable for it. Why do you continue to take Scripture out of context??
Why do you equate infants in this passage to youth, even up to the age of 19. Why do you consider a 19 year old the equivalent of an infant?
What is going on here Winman?? Is the denial of Original Sin and the depravity of man so important to you that you have to go to such extremes to so twist Scripture to continually make it mean something it doesn't?? This is truly amazing! I thought I had seen it all on the Theology forum. I guess I was wrong.

 

[Winman]

You would have us believe then, that all people 20 years and under, should be classified as "infants." This is who Moses was addressing or speaking about--the ones "children," 20 years and under, which you say "had no knowledge between good and evil." Don't you think you have twisted the meaning here and taken it out of context.

The meaning: "had no knowledge between good and evil"--concerning the events of going into the Promised Land; no knowledge of the bad report; no knowledge of the reports of Joshua and Caleb, etc. They were not the ones that made the decisions at that time, and were not held accountable for it. Why do you continue to take Scripture out of context??
Why do you equate infants in this passage to youth, even up to the age of 19. Why do you consider a 19 year old the equivalent of an infant?
What is going on here Winman?? Is the denial of Original Sin and the depravity of man so important to you that you have to go to such extremes to so twist Scripture to continually make it mean something it doesn't?? This is truly amazing! I thought I had seen it all on the Theology forum. I guess I was wrong.

DHK, we have been through this several times. I did not pick the age of 20, God did. I have no problem with that, you do. I'm sorry you feel this way.

The fact is, God said the little children did not know between good and evil "in that day". I do not know how much knowledge God requires for a person to be held responsible, but I am certain God knows what he is doing.

I also do not know if this age was chosen in this particular incidence only, perhaps it was, and perhaps this was not the norm, I don't know. But I certainly am not going to argue with God's decision as you seem to do.

But I fully believe God does not hold little children responsible for sin when they do not know what sin is, and do not understand the eternal consequences for sin. I would imagine God knows exactly when a child is mature enough to understand these things, and the age would probably be different for each child. My daughter seemed like a 15 year old when she was 6, my son who is 9 has always just seemed his age. It is not unusual for girls to mature earlier like this. So, I am sure God takes each child's personal maturity into account.

But none of the scriptures you or others have shown say we are born dead in sin. You cannot show a single scripture that says that. The scriptures say we were dead in trespasses and sins wherein we WALKED. They say we are alienated by evil WORKs. You are not judged a sinner simply for being born, we are judged for those things DONE in our body, whether good or bad.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Do you know what the word DONE means? It is not speaking of being born, it is speaking of commiitting actual sin. And I showed you from scripture that Jacob and Esau had DONE no evil when they were in their mother's womb.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Again, note the word DONE. We are not judged according to the nature we are born with, we are judged for those things DONE in our body.

A newborn child can barely do anything, they certainly cannot commit a sin. And that is what Romans 9:11 shows whether you will accept it or not.

 

[DHK]

DHK, we have been through this several times. I did not pick the age of 20, God did. I have no problem with that, you do. I'm sorry you feel this way.

Sorrow only for yourself. You have a problem with Scripture. You cannot reconcile Scripture with real life. Neither can you reconcile Scripture with Scripture. So you resort to twisting its meaning. If you are going to drag Deu.1:39 into this conversation do it with a clean heart, the right motivation, and use it with the right context.

1. The little children means "youth", not infants. They were all the youth under 20: 17-19 year old "children" included.
2. They "did not know good from evil." Is that true? It is only applicable to the decision made to go into the Promised Land, a decision in which they had no part in. It is like my 19 year old relative saying: "I had no part in whom my parents voted in as president." I didn't even know who the candidates were. They were innocent in reference to the situation at that time. You can't drag a verse out of its historical context and use it to defend your pet doctrine. This is absurd!!
3. Practical application. If we apply your method of interpretation here, then a 17 year old here, in this city, on trial for rape and murder of a 62 year old grandmother should go free because "he didn't know good from evil." This is your reasoning.
This is the absurd logic you come to when you take Scripture out of its historical context.

The fact is, God said the little children did not know between good and evil "in that day". I do not know how much knowledge God requires for a person to be held responsible, but I am certain God knows what he is doing.

No, that is not the fact. They did not make the decision to enter the Promised Land, and were free from the consequences of that decision. If I have any children that were not old enough to vote in the last election they are free from the consequences of the outcome of that election because they didn't vote nor did they know the issues that surrounded it or even the candidates involved. Why do you ignore context??

I also do not know if this age was chosen in this particular incidence only, perhaps it was, and perhaps this was not the norm, I don't know. But I certainly am not going to argue with God's decision as you seem to do.

Because only those 20 and older were responsible enough to make decisions on behalf of the entire nation. It is still true today in the democracies that we have. It is called "voting age." Here our secular governments can recognize a Biblical truth that you can't seem to grasp.

But I fully believe God does not hold little children responsible for sin when they do not know what sin is, and do not understand the eternal consequences for sin.

Deu.1:39 is not speaking of eternal consequences of sin, and thus it is a red herring.

I would imagine God knows exactly when a child is mature enough to understand these things, and the age would probably be different for each child. My daughter seemed like a 15 year old when she was 6, my son who is 9 has always just seemed his age. It is not unusual for girls to mature earlier like this. So, I am sure God takes each child's personal maturity into account.

And that is not what Deu.1:39 is talking about! It is not an age of accountability per se; it more akin to a voting age. IOW, they were not responsible for the decision to go in because they did not make the decision not to go in, or directly rebel as their parents did, even though they had the ability to.

But none of the scriptures you or others have shown say we are born dead in sin.

Almost all of them do. Your problem is, you do not want to accept Scripture at face value unless it is written the way you want it to be written as if it had to be addressed in an epistle written with your name on it and signed by God himself. It has to have the absolute perfect wording for you. I have news for you: You are not going to get it.
When I tell you "I have 12 children." (not actual number). Then what facts do you deduce from that?
1. That I have a big family.
2. That my children were born. I don't have to tell you that. As I have been sarcastically telling you--they weren't hatched. They didn't come from eggs. They were born into this world--every last one of them. But you seem to think that God has to spell those very basic facts out for you.

Paul says:
(Heb 6:1) "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on..."
--You are stuck on basics. You need to move on.

You cannot show a single scripture that says that. The scriptures say we were dead in trespasses and sins wherein we WALKED.

(Eph 2:1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(Eph 2:2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
And children are??? Not hatched. They are born. And as soon as they are born they begin to sin. They are the children of disobedience; the children of wrath, walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air--the devil himself. Not so innocent are they?
--The only way out of that situation is: If they be made alive by the Holy Spirit--the new birth.

They say we are alienated by evil WORKs. You are not judged a sinner simply for being born, we are judged for those things DONE in our body, whether good or bad.

It is an evil thing to juxtapose Scripture together where one speaks about the unsaved and the other the saved, and try to make them both speak of the same thing. That is so wrong. You might want to give references for the two verses that you are amalgamating together here so others can see your wrong-doing.

2 Cor 5:10

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1. It is Scripture taken out of context/
2. It is Scripture that speaks of the redeemed.
3. It is Scripture that speaks of reward.
4. It is Scripture that speaks of the Judgement Seat of Christ which takes place in heaven
5. There is no depravity in heaven; no sin in heaven.
6. Considering the above statements this Scripture has nothing to do with this conversation or even this entire thread.

Do you know what the word DONE means? It is not speaking of being born, it is speaking of commiitting actual sin. And I showed you from scripture that Jacob and Esau had DONE no evil when they were in their mother's womb.

All irrelevant. If you can't use Scripture within the context that it is being used in what good is it?

Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

Again, note the word DONE. We are not judged according to the nature we are born with, we are judged for those things DONE in our body.

This speaks nothing about their nature.

A newborn child can barely do anything, they certainly cannot commit a sin. And that is what Romans 9:11 shows whether you will accept it or not.

Romans 9:11 is about the Jews, election, and prophecy. It makes no reference to the depravity of man.

 

[Winman]

1. It is Scripture taken out of context/
2. It is Scripture that speaks of the redeemed.
3. It is Scripture that speaks of reward.
4. It is Scripture that speaks of the Judgement Seat of Christ which takes place in heaven
5. There is no depravity in heaven; no sin in heaven.
6. Considering the above statements this Scripture has nothing to do with this conversation or even this entire thread.

DHK, I don't know how you form your views, but it is never difficult to refute them. The judgment spoke of in 2 Cor 5:10 is not the redeemed only.

Barnes Notes

2 Corinthians 5:10



</B></I>For we must - ( ͂ dei ). It is proper, fit, necessary that we should all appear there. This fact, to which Paul now refers, is another reason why it was necessary to lead a holy life, and why Paul gave himself with so much diligence and self-denial to the arduous duties of his office. There is a necessity, or a fitness that we should appear there to give up our account, for we are here on trial: we are responsible moral agents; we are placed here to form characters for eternity. Before we receive our eternal allotment it is proper that we should render our account of the manner in which we have lived, and of the manner in which we have improved our talents and privileges. In the nature of things, it is proper that we should undergo a trial before we receive our reward, or before we are punished; and God has made it necessary and certain, by his direct and positive appointment, that we should stand at the bar of the final judge; see Romans 14:10.
</B></I>All - Both Jews and Gentiles; old and young; bond and free; rich and poor; all of every class, and every age, and every nation. None shall escape by being unknown; none by virtue of their rank, or wealth; none because they have a character too pure to be judged. All shall be arranged in one vast assemblage, and with reference to their eternal doom; see Revelation 20:12. Rosenmuller supposes that the apostle here alludes to an opinion that was common among the Jews that the Gentiles only would be exposed to severe judgments in the future world, and that the Jews would be saved as a matter of course. But the idea seems rather to be, that as the trial of the great day was the most important that man could undergo, and as all must give account there, Paul and his fellow-laborers devoted themselves to untiring diligence and fidelity that they might be accepted in that great day.
</B></I>Appear - ( ͂ phanerōthēnai ). This word properly means, to make apparent, manifest, known; to show openly, etc. Here it means that we must be manifest, or openly shown; that is, we must be seen there, and be publicly tried. We must not only stand there, but our character will be seen, our desert will be known, our trial will be public. All will be brought, from their graves, and from their places of concealment, and will be seen at the judgment-seat. The secret things of the heart and the life will all be made manifest and known.
</B></I>The judgment-seat of Christ - The tribunal of Christ, who is appointed to be the judge of quick and dead; see the John 5:25 note; Acts 10:42; Acts 17:31 notes. Christ is appointed to judge the world; and for this purpose he will assemble it before him, and assign to all their eternal allotments; see Matt. 25.
</B></I>That every one may receive - The word rendered "may receive" ́ komisētai means properly to take care of, to provide for; and in the New Testament, to bear, to bring Luke 7:37; to acquire, to obtain, to receive. This is the sense here. Every individual shall take, receive, or bear away the appropriate reward for the transactions of this life of probation; see Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:25.
</B></I>The things - The appropriate reward of the actions of this life. "done in his body." Literally, "the things by or through ( ̀ dia ) the body." Tyndale renders it: "the works of his body." The idea is, that every man shall receive an appropriate reward for the actions of this life. Observe here:
(1) That it is the works done in or through the body; not which the body itself has done. It is the mind, the man that has lived in the body, and acted by it, that is to be judged.
(2) It is to be for the deeds of this life; not for what is done after death. People are not to be brought into judgment for what they do after they die. All beyond the grave is either reward or punishment; it is not probation. The destiny is to be settled forever by what is done in this world of probation.
(3) It is to be for all the deeds done in the body; for all the thoughts, plans, purposes, words, as well as for all the outward actions of the man. All that has been thought or done must come into review, and man must give an account for all.
</B></I>According to that he hath done - As an exact retribution for all that has been done. It is to be a suitable and proper recompence. The retribution is to be measured by what has been done in this life. Rewards shall be granted to the friends, and punishments to the foes of God, just in proportion to, or suitably to their deeds in this life. Every man shall receive just what, under all the circumstances, he ought to receive, and what will be impartial justice in the case. The judgment will be such that it will be capable of being seen to be right; and such as the universe at large, and as the individuals themselves will see ought to be rendered.
</B></I>Whether it be good or bad - Whether the life has been good or evil. The good will have no wish to escape the trial; the evil will not be able. No power of wickedness, however great, will be able to escape from the trial of that day; no crime that has been concealed in this life will be concealed there; no transgressor of law who may have long escaped the punishment due to his sins, and who may have evaded all human tribunals, will be able to escape there. ​

Spurgeon

I. Ask ye now, who is it, or who ARE THEY THAT WILL HAVE APPEAR BEFORE THE THRONE OF JUDGMENT? The answer is plain; it admits of no exemption: "We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." This is very decisive, if there were no other text. We must all appear; that is to say, every one of the human race.

The text is quite conclusive upon that point. And if we had not that text, we nave the passage in Matthew, which we have read, in which the sheep are summoned there as certainly as are the goats; and the passage in the Revelation, where all the dead are judged according to the things which are written in the books. They are all there.

"We must all appear." What a vast assembly, what a prodigious gathering, that of the entire human race!

There shall come the wicked of every sort. Proud Pharaoh shall be there; Senacherib, the haughty; Herod, that would have slain the young child; Judas, that betrayed his master; Demas, that sold him for gold; and Pilate, who would fain have washed his hands in innocency. There shall come the long list of infallibles, the whole line of popes, to receive their damnation at the Almighty's hands, and the priests that trod upon the necks of nations, and the tyrants that used the priests as their tools—they shall come to receive the thunderbolts of God which they so richly deserve. Oh, what a scene will it be! These little companies, which look to us so large when they are gathered together beneath this roof, how do they shrink into the drop of a bucket as compared with the ocean of life that shall swell around the throne at the last great Judgment day. They shall all be there.

So again, I am not pulling scripture out of context, and many scholars agree with me.

​

 

[DHK]

DHK, I don't know how you form your views, but it is never difficult to refute them. The judgment spoke of in 2 Cor 5:10 is not the redeemed only.

Barnes Notes
Spurgeon

So again, I am not pulling scripture out of context, and many scholars agree with me.
[/COLOR][/LEFT]

Barnes was a Presbyterian, and though Spurgeon was a Baptist. I don't know his views on eschatology. I generally don't trust the views of those who wrote long ago for their eschatology, in particular Presbyterians.

(2Co 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
(2Co 5:11) Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Paul was addressing Christians, not the unsaved. He includes himself--the first person plural "we." We does not include the unsaved. As "we" are going to stand before the Lord, the conclusion in the next verse is that we need to fear that day, and do what the Lord wants us to do--persuade men. Our works will be made manifest (1Cor.3:11-15). This is the same description given in 1Cor.3:11-15 where it describes the Judgement Seat of Christ for believers only in more detail.
Paul gives two reasons why we should give ourselves totally to Him for service:
1. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men, and;
2. "the love of Christ constraineth us." (vs. 14)
--both are motivational factors in the Christian life.

Either way they have nothing to do with the depravity of man.

 

[Winman]

Barnes was a Presbyterian, and though Spurgeon was a Baptist. I don't know his views on eschatology. I generally don't trust the views of those who wrote long ago for their eschatology, in particular Presbyterians.

(2Co 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
(2Co 5:11) Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Paul was addressing Christians, not the unsaved. He includes himself--the first person plural "we." We does not include the unsaved. As "we" are going to stand before the Lord, the conclusion in the next verse is that we need to fear that day, and do what the Lord wants us to do--persuade men. Our works will be made manifest (1Cor.3:11-15). This is the same description given in 1Cor.3:11-15 where it describes the Judgement Seat of Christ for believers only in more detail.
Paul gives two reasons why we should give ourselves totally to Him for service:
1. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men, and;
2. "the love of Christ constraineth us." (vs. 14)
--both are motivational factors in the Christian life.

Either way they have nothing to do with the depravity of man.

It pertains to depravity in that we are judged according to what we have DONE, not our nature.

Jesus had the same nature as the seed of Abraham.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Jesus had natural lusts and desires, else he could not be tempted. God the Father cannot be tempted.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jesus could be tempted. He could not have inherited this ability to be tempted from his Father, as his Father does not have this ability. Jesus inherited this ability from his mother Mary through the flesh.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

We are all born flesh with lusts and desires. Adam and Eve were flesh and also had lusts and desires. It is directly described in scripture.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The scriptures describe three kinds of lust or desire.

1 Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Eve had these three lusts. The tree looked good for food, this is the lust of the flesh. The tree was pleasant to the eyes, this is the lust of the eyes. The tree was "desired" to make one wise, this is the pride of life.

We have these same lusts. These lusts and desires do not make us evil, just as they did not make Adam and Eve evil, or make Jesus evil. It was when Adam and Eve actually took of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and ate that they sinned and became sinners. It is those things DONE in the body we are judged for.

Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

God did not condemn Adam and Eve because they were tempted, he condemned them because they actually committed sin.

Jesus was tempted in ALL points as we are. Temptation does not equal sin. But Jesus never committed sin.

You cannot grasp this, we are born with the same nature Adam and Eve were created with. We are flesh and easily tempted. It is when we actually commit sin we are judged as sinners and spiritually die.

This is why 2 Corinthians 5:10 applies. We are not judged because we are flesh and easily tempted, we are judged for those things DONE in the body. It is when we willingly obey temptation and commit sin we are judged. We are not judged evil because we are tempted, just as Jesus was not evil because he was tempted.

 

[DHK]

It pertains to depravity in that we are judged according to what we have DONE, not our nature.

Jesus had the same nature as the seed of Abraham.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Jesus had natural lusts and desires, else he could not be tempted. God the Father cannot be tempted.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Jesus could be tempted. He could not have inherited this ability to be tempted from his Father, as his Father does not have this ability. Jesus inherited this ability from his mother Mary through the flesh.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

We are all born flesh with lusts and desires. Adam and Eve were flesh and also had lusts and desires. It is directly described in scripture.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The scriptures describe three kinds of lust or desire.

1 Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Eve had these three lusts. The tree looked good for food, this is the lust of the flesh. The tree was pleasant to the eyes, this is the lust of the eyes. The tree was "desired" to make one wise, this is the pride of life.

We have these same lusts. These lusts and desires do not make us evil, just as they did not make Adam and Eve evil, or make Jesus evil. It was when Adam and Eve actually took of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and ate that they sinned and became sinners. It is those things DONE in the body we are judged for.

Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

God did not condemn Adam and Eve because they were tempted, he condemned them because they actually committed sin.

Jesus was tempted in ALL points as we are. Temptation does not equal sin. But Jesus never committed sin.

You cannot grasp this, we are born with the same nature Adam and Eve were created with. We are flesh and easily tempted. It is when we actually commit sin we are judged as sinners and spiritually die.

This is why 2 Corinthians 5:10 applies. We are not judged because we are flesh and easily tempted, we are judged for those things DONE in the body. It is when we willingly obey temptation and commit sin we are judged. We are not judged evil because we are tempted, just as Jesus was not evil because he was tempted.

WOW! you have some weird theology.
Can we keep this on one topic please.
If you want to start a topic on the Judgment than do so,
Or on eschatology, then do so.

But this threadOne Man's Disobedience Many Were Made Sinners


That means that this thread is on the depravity of man, specifically that we have inherited our sin nature from Adam: for "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners."

Let's keep to this topic, please.

 

[Winman]

WOW! you have some weird theology.
Can we keep this on one topic please.
If you want to start a topic on the Judgment than do so,
Or on eschatology, then do so.

But this threadOne Man's Disobedience Many Were Made Sinners


That means that this thread is on the depravity of man, specifically that we have inherited our sin nature from Adam: for "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners."

Let's keep to this topic, please.

The scriptures NEVER say we have a sin nature (unless you read certain MVs). The scriptures say we are flesh. This is all about depravity, the scriptures say Jesus took on the NATURE of the seed of Abraham. The scriptures say Jesus came in the flesh.

NIV - Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

NIV - Rom 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,

The word for "sinful nature" here in Greek is sarx. This is the exact same word used in 1 Jn 4:2 translated "flesh"

NIV- 1 Jn 4:2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

Now, I do not agree with the NIV and believe this serious error, but the NIV translates "sarx" in Rom 7:25 and Rom 8:3 to say "sinful nature", but then inconsistently translates "sarx" to say "flesh" in 1 Jn 4:2.

But the scriptures do say Jesus came in the flesh (sarx).

KJB - Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

KJB - Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

KJB - 1 Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Folks need to make up their mind, the same word "sarx" is used in all of these verses. If "sarx" means sinful nature as the NIV translates it in Rom 7:25 and Rom 8:3, then Jesus had a sinful nature. I reject this.

No, Jesus came in the flesh (sarx), the same flesh we have. But the flesh is not evil in itself. The flesh has lusts and desires that would pull and entice us toward sin, but a person does not sin or become sinful until they obey the lusts of the flesh and commit a transgression of God's law.

Adam and Eve were also flesh, yet God called them very good, that is, until they obeyed the lusts of their flesh and broke God's law. It is then that they became sinful.

Adam made men sinners in that he introduced sin, just as Karl Marx made many men communists by introducing communism, or Charles Darwin made many men evolutionists when he introduced evolution.

 

[DHK]

1. Jesus was "of the seed of Abraham," a phrase that identifies Christ with the Jewish race. He was a Jew. Salvation is of the Jews, Jesus said.
2. Christ was God come in the flesh. The flesh in and of itself is not sinful. It is made of chemicals, molecules, atoms, etc. He took upon himself a body. There is nothing sinful in a body. The body itself cannot sin; it is the mind or heart that causes the body to sin.
(Mat 15:19) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
--This is the heart of man, a depraved heart, as described in Jer.17:9
(Jer 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
--This is not the heart, the mind of Jesus. Jesus had a body of flesh, but not the mind, the heart of man tainted by sin. He did not, does not have a sin nature. Remember he still has a body. He still is perfect.

3. As Jesus came into this world as God, he came into this world as perfect man. In order to do this he had to be born of a virgin. The reason he was born of a virgin was not simply a fulfilled prophesy, but that he might escape the sin nature of Adam. The sin nature, that is the Adamic nature, comes through the man. But Christ was virgin born thus avoiding the sin nature. This was the whole purpose of the virgin birth--to escape inheriting a sin nature.

4. Jesus came in the flesh. But his nature was not a sin nature like unto man's. Paul describes the battle between the new nature and the old sin nature in Romans 7. He said "it is sin that dwells in me." But we are commanded to "Let this mind be in you which is also in Christ Jesus." Why? Christ had no sin; we do. We have a sin nature which can only be conquered through the mind of Christ.

(Rom 7:25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Christ always conquered temptation that came to the flesh.
We do not. We have a sin nature and easily give into the flesh. Yet we are still responsible for the sins we commit.

 

[Winman]

No, Heb 2:16 says he took on the NATURE of the seed of Abraham (not Adam)

Clarke

By assuming the nature of man, he prevented this final and irrecoverable fall of man; and by making an atonement in human nature, he made a provision for its restoration to its forfeited blessedness.

Gill

Christ assumed human nature as derived from Abraham; for the Messiah was to spring from Abraham,

Henry

yet in the fulness of time he took our nature into union with his divine nature, and became really and truly man.

 

[DHK]

No, Heb 2:16 says he took on the NATURE of the seed of Abraham (not Adam)

Clarke

Gill

Henry

And every one of those men believe in the depravity of man.
And every one of those men believe that Christ is sinless.
Thus every one of those men disagree with your conclusions.

 

[Winman]

And every one of those men believe in the depravity of man.

Yes, they all believed man is born with a sinful nature.

And every one of those men believe that Christ is sinless.

Yet, they all believed Jesus was born with the nature of the seed of Abraham, because that is what the scriptures say.

Thus every one of those men disagree with your conclusions.

Then they all believed a contradiction.

In my view, there is no contradiction. Men are not born sinful, but become sinful when they actually sin. Jesus being born with the same nature was not sinful, and never became sinful because he never actually sinned.