Salvation in Catholic and Baptist Theology

[The Biblicist]

So, our venacular trumps the Holy Spirit's choice of terms? So our culture determines what in the Bible is acceptable and not acceptable??

Heathen cultures also worship men as gods, so why not call ourselves "gods" as Psalm 86 uses "gods" to decribe men. Isn't that the god of secular humanism? Seems to be very compatable.

Your argument is rediculous and if followed consistent would make culture rather than the Bible or tradition or the Catholic Church as final in authority.

If you will not call the Pope "God" when scripture provides justification for that use of term to men (Psa 86; Jn. 10) then there is no way you can address the Pope as "Holy Father" a direct address NEVER used in scripture for men or by men toward other men.

Not even Jesus was addressed as "holy father" by any man nor did even Jesus take upon that title of direct address! How blasphemeous is it for the Pope to usurp what even Jesus would not have men address him!!!!!

 

[Moriah]

The problem here for you is that ALL Christians are EQUALLY holy and NONE are ever addressed as "Holy Father" must less "MOST Holy Father."

No priest in the Old Testament, not even the High Priest, No apostle, no Bishop in New Testament Scripture is ever addressed "Holy Father" by others much less "MOST holy Father."

The Pope is blaspheming God by taking that title from men and all who address him as "Holy Father" are blaspheming God and particular all who dare address him as "MOST Holy Father" are blasphemers.

No one in scripture is ever addressed directly by men as "Holy Father" but One and that is God the Father.

BTW not to change the subject but the text you cite proves that all LIVING Christians are "hagnoi" = saints not merely departed Christians and BTW ALL departed Christians are called "saints" (hagnoi) as well. So much for Rome sainting people - another blasphemous act that usurps God.

It is a horrendous thing that Catholics do, committing offensive practices against God, and then making excuses for it while continuing to hold on to those practices.
You brought up a very important topic about the Catholics and canonizing their “Saints.” I would like to make a new post on this. If it does not change a Catholic’s heart, at least it will help strengthen others who believe what is true. I would love to help demolish any influence the Catholic religion has on someone who is not completely sure that it is a false church.
Ephesians 5:11

 

[WestminsterMan]

You yourself admit right here that the warning from the Paul could be about any church or denomination! The Catholic Church is full of falseness, doing everything it can to do the opposite of what God commands.

It could be directed to the RCC or it might not be. That's an argument from silence and is nothing more than your "fallible" opinion.

As I said before, it should make you cringe to call the Catholic leader “Holy Father.”

Simply saying that it should make me "cringe" only demonstrates your predilection for believing that your theology is correct to the exclusion of those who practice their faith differently than you. And clearly we all know that those whom you deem to be blasphemous will most certainly go to hell. Yep! God doesn't allow blasphemers into heaven. Thanks for stepping up and helping God with these decisions as I know He is very busy right now.

What blasphemy that you are a part of, giving sinful man the name reserved for God, putting that man in long flowing robes, taking the seat of most importance, people even kissing his feet! How is it that you do not see the evil in all this?

Hmmm... I don't know what blasphemy I am a part of. But, if by that accusation you mean that anyone who takes exception to one claiming to be a Christian, yet routinely spews garbage like the above, well then yes... I guess that makes me a blasphemer.

Personally, I don’t think God is seriously torqued that Catholics call the Pope "Holy Father" but hey, that's just me.

I would like to help expose it to you.

Stop typing... stand up... and slowly back away from the computer!

WM

 

[JarJo]

Would you address him as "God" since "God" is used in scripture for men according to Jesus himself (Psa. 86)?

TS objection that "God" would be inappropriate in OUR CULTURE is rediculous as that demands we should not obey anything in Scripture that might be contrary to our culture or interpret differently by our culture. Think of the absurdity of that line of reasoning if applied to anything objected by your current culture that is Biblical????????????

Why would I call the pope God? It would add serious credibility to your arguments if the church had over the centuries adopted the term 'god' for the pope. But it didn't, so I don't really see your point.

Do catholics believe the pope has some special holiness above and beyond the regular christian holiness? No. Do catholics believe the pope is equal to God? No. So the title must just be a way of recognizing him as our teacher and as one of the christian faithful in a prominent office.

 

[The Biblicist]

It is a horrendous thing that Catholics do, committing offensive practices against God, and then making excuses for it while continuing to hold on to those practices.
You brought up a very important topic about the Catholics and canonizing their “Saints.” I would like to make a new post on this. If it does not change a Catholic’s heart, at least it will help strengthen others who believe what is true. I would love to help demolish any influence the Catholic religion has on someone who is not completely sure that it is a false church.
Ephesians 5:11

Couldn't agree with you more! We have had threads on that topic before but why not again. Another good does of truth won't hurt those seeking the truth.

 

[Moriah]

It could be directed to the RCC or it might not be. That's an argument from silence and is nothing more than your "fallible" opinion.

Simply saying that it should make me "cringe" only demonstrates your predilection for believing that your theology is correct to the exclusion of those who practice their faith differently than you. And clearly we all know that those whom you deem to be blasphemous will most certainly go to hell. Yep! God doesn't allow blasphemers into heaven. Thanks for stepping up and helping God with these decisions as I know He is very busy right now.

Hmmm... I don't know what blasphemy I am a part of. But, if by that accusation you mean that anyone who takes exception to one claiming to be a Christian, yet routinely spews garbage like the above, well then yes... I guess that makes me a blasphemer.

Personally, I don’t think God is seriously torqued that Catholics call the Pope "Holy Father" but hey, that's just me.

I did not accuse anyone of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you can stop with the false accusations. I want us to be like minded in Christ, and that is why I discuss the truth. When I was in a false religion, and when someone else kept telling me how evil it was, I repented of it, and I am thankful that they spoke to me. If Catholics love God as they say they do then they would stop doing things against God.

 

[The Biblicist]

Why would I call the pope God? It would add serious credibility to your arguments if the church had over the centuries adopted the term 'god' for the pope. But it didn't, so I don't really see your point.

Do catholics believe the pope has some special holiness above and beyond the regular christian holiness? No. Do catholics believe the pope is equal to God? No. So the title must just be a way of recognizing him as our teacher and as one of the christian faithful in a prominent office.

Since all Chrisitans are EQUALLY holy why don't you have other address you as "MOST holy Father"?

Why didn't Jesus have his followers address him as "Holy Father" or "Most Holy Father" or is he less holy than the Pope??

This argument by Catholics is so rediculous that only intentional blind dogma could keep defending it.

 

[Moriah]

Couldn't agree with you more! We have had threads on that topic before but why not again. Another good does of truth won't hurt those seeking the truth.

This makes me so glad to hear. I have to go right now, but I will be back later this afternoon.

 

[The Biblicist]

It could be directed to the RCC or it might not be. That's an argument from silence and is nothing more than your "fallible" opinion.

Or Romes FALLIBLE opinion. Fact is Rome is full of heresies and the shoe fits.

Simply saying that it should make me "cringe" only demonstrates your predilection for believing that your theology is correct to the exclusion of those who practice their faith differently than you. And clearly we all know that those whom you deem to be blasphemous will most certainly go to hell. Yep! God doesn't allow blasphemers into heaven. Thanks for stepping up and helping God with these decisions as I know He is very busy right now.

The shoe fits!

Hmmm... I don't know what blasphemy I am a part of. But, if by that accusation you mean that anyone who takes exception to one claiming to be a Christian, yet routinely spews garbage like the above, well then yes... I guess that makes me a blasphemer.

The only ones spewing garbage are those who dare address any human being as "MOST holy father" when Jesus Christ was NEVER addressed that way nor any other man. ONLY God the Father is addressed that way.

Personally, I don’t think God is seriously torqued that Catholics call the Pope "Holy Father" but hey, that's just me.

Why not just call him "God" as well since Psalms 86 provides a basis to call men God?

Catholics make tradition, counsels, popes, and on this forum even heathen cultures more authoritative than the Word of God. God's word never uses "holy Father " as a direct address to any human any time anywhere. Rome Blasphemes God.

 

[The Biblicist]

Why would I call the pope God? It would add serious credibility to your arguments if the church had over the centuries adopted the term 'god' for the pope. But it didn't, so I don't really see your point.

Do catholics believe the pope has some special holiness above and beyond the regular christian holiness? No. Do catholics believe the pope is equal to God? No. So the title must just be a way of recognizing him as our teacher and as one of the christian faithful in a prominent office.

Why not address the pope as "Lord God" or "Most God" or "Most Lord God"????

Because these titles are only addressed to God???

So also is the direct address "Holy Father."

If you cannot see that the direct address "MOST Holy Father" is blasphemous then no amount of argumentation will change your mind.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So, our venacular trumps the Holy Spirit's choice of terms? So our culture determines what in the Bible is acceptable and not acceptable??

Heathen cultures also worship men as gods, so why not call ourselves "gods" as Psalm 86 uses "gods" to decribe men. Isn't that the god of secular humanism? Seems to be very compatable.

Your argument is rediculous and if followed consistent would make culture rather than the Bible or tradition or the Catholic Church as final in authority.

The Jews wouldn't say YHWH. Or even try to pronounce it. So you have it. God in our language is reserved for one Person. Father is not. As it was with the Jews YHWH is reserved for one person Abba was not. And that is biblical. You don't want to admit Jesus used Hyperbole.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You don't want to admit the truth and you still haven't answered about the use of the word father by children etc. So I can make the same accusation of you:

It is a horrendous thing that Biblisist does, committing offensive practices against God, and then making excuses for it while continuing to hold on to those practices. Insisting that his children call him father against the word of Jesus Christ! Biblicist makes a mockery of the bible when the bible clearly states

Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

You show your disdaine for God and lead your children astray by having them or even allowing them to call you Father!!!! The bible Says

“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

You caused your children to sin by having them call you Father what a great evil and against the word of God!!!!

If I were pentecostal I would say God-huh! Where is my white hankercheif I feel a sermon comming on!

 

[JarJo]

If you cannot see that the direct address "MOST Holy Father" is blasphemous then no amount of argumentation will change your mind.

I guess you think it means that the pope is the MOST holy of all, even more holy than God? And that he is Most Father, even father of God? yeah, using it in that way would definitely be blasphemous.

What did people call Jesus? I can't remember.

Edit: They called Jesus "Our Lord Jesus Christ".

Edit 2: Around here we just refer to the pope as "Papa Benny". It's a term of endearment.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Jews wouldn't say YHWH. Or even try to pronounce it. So you have it. God in our language is reserved for one Person. Father is not. As it was with the Jews YHWH is reserved for one person Abba was not. And that is biblical. You don't want to admit Jesus used Hyperbole.

You are a debater and an escape artist. Whether it was hyperbole or not makes no difference. The argument is not over the use or term "father" but over the use of the direct address "Holy Father" which is used only one time in Scripture and it is used for only One Person in Scripture - God the Father.

Hence, the term "Father" modified by "holy" is in a precise context that limits it to "our Father in heaven" alone! That is the Biblical context for that direct address. The Bible offers no other context for the use of the terms "holy father."

That is the truth and it is the truth you are not willing to acknowledge or admit or restrict that expression to. The Bible restricts that particular expression to God alone just as YHWH is restricted by context to God alone.

 

[The Biblicist]

I guess you think it means that the pope is the MOST holy of all, even more holy than God? And that he is Most Father, even father of God? yeah, using it in that way would definitely be blasphemous.

What did people call Jesus? I can't remember.

Edit: They called Jesus "Our Lord Jesus Christ".

Edit 2: Around here we just refer to the pope as "Papa Benny". It's a term of endearment.

I will repeat what I said to TS. The Bible restricts the use of Jehovah (YHWH) to God alone. Thus it would be obvious blasphemy for any man to assume that title or any other man to address anyone but God by that title.

So likewise, the direct address "Holy Father" is restricted by Biblical usage to God alone. Therefore, it would be equally blasphemy for any man to assume that title or any man to address anyone but God the Father by that title.

Jesus Himself never takes that title of address and you believe some sinful man with a funny cap can do it?????????

Here is the real crux of the argument! What Scriptural basis can Rome apply "Most Holy Father" or "Holy Father" to anyone but God the Father ANY MORE THAN WHAT AUTHORITY can they apply Jehovah (YHWH) to anyone but God alone as both have as their ONLY BIBLICAL CONTEXT application to God only??????

 

[The Biblicist]

You don't want to admit the truth and you still haven't answered about the use of the word father by children etc. So I can make the same accusation of you:

You are artfully dodging the real issue and thus not even addressing the truth. The real issue is not about the term "father"! The real issue is the direct address "HOLY Father" and how the Biblical context applies this direct address.

The Biblical contextual application forbids the direct address of YHWH translated Yahweh or Jehovah to be applied to anyone but God. That is the Biblical restrictive context of application. The Biblical context NEVER addresses any other being by that term. The same is true with "Holy Father." The Bibical context never addresses any other being by that those terms. Not even Jesus is addressed that way and thus you have a sinful man wearing a funny cap taking honor not even given to Christ by mankind.

You are rejecting the Biblical restricted context of this direct address and so is Rome.

So you are artfully dodging the facts of Biblical context and Biblical usage. You are vainly attempting to reduce the argument to the simple term "father" when that is not the issue at all but you are strenuously attempting to use that red herring.

 

[JarJo]

Jesus Himself never takes that title of address and you believe some sinful man with a funny cap can do it?????????

I don't think the pope ever told anyone to call him Holy Father. It was probably a term invented by others to give him respect and to distinguish him from all the other people called father, like priests and bishops. Likewise, Jesus didn't tell people to call him Lord Jesus Christ, other people came up with it out of respect.

You would have to show me where in the bible it forbids us to use that specific title for anyone other than God. All you've done is shown us that the bible calls God 'Holy Father' once or twice. Of course God is holy and we call him Father, but that doesn't mean that my biological father isn't a holy father or shouldn't be referred to that way. The bible calls God lots of things. For example it refers to Jesus as "wonderful counselor". Now if I recommend a marriage counselor to someone and say 'she's a wonderful counselor' does that equate to blasphemy? Of course not.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You are a debater and an escape artist. Whether it was hyperbole or not makes no difference. The argument is not over the use or term "father" but over the use of the direct address "Holy Father" which is used only one time in Scripture and it is used for only One Person in Scripture - God the Father.

Hence, the term "Father" modified by "holy" is in a precise context that limits it to "our Father in heaven" alone! That is the Biblical context for that direct address. The Bible offers no other context for the use of the terms "holy father."

That is the truth and it is the truth you are not willing to acknowledge or admit or restrict that expression to. The Bible restricts that particular expression to God alone just as YHWH is restricted by context to God alone.

You really are reaching. Jesus was speaking in Hyperbole and just because I use Holy which means set apart doesn't mean I'm referring to God. It means the man is set apart as an elder of the Church which itself is Holy and set apart. And I have a Holy Cup which I only use for Coffee and nothing else. Its set apart for just coffee. I'm not saying my cup is Godly.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I will repeat what I said to TS. The Bible restricts the use of Jehovah (YHWH) to God alone. Thus it would be obvious blasphemy for any man to assume that title or any other man to address anyone but God by that title.

So likewise, the direct address "Holy Father" is restricted by Biblical usage to God alone. Therefore, it would be equally blasphemy for any man to assume that title or any man to address anyone but God the Father by that title.

Jesus Himself never takes that title of address and you believe some sinful man with a funny cap can do it?????????

Here is the real crux of the argument! What Scriptural basis can Rome apply "Most Holy Father" or "Holy Father" to anyone but God the Father ANY MORE THAN WHAT AUTHORITY can they apply Jehovah (YHWH) to anyone but God alone as both have as their ONLY BIBLICAL CONTEXT application to God only??????

and in our language God is set asside for God alone. So whats the difference? Nothing. I don't call the Pope God because he isn't. He's an elder with a specific purpose thus Holy. Father.

Be honest post 232 is right on isn't it? Especially if you were consistent.

 

[JarJo]

It is a horrendous thing that Biblisist does, committing offensive practices against God, and then making excuses for it while continuing to hold on to those practices. Insisting that his children call him father against the word of Jesus Christ!

I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt, that his children call him "dad" and not "father", which is clearly forbidden in the bible.