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Salvation in Catholic and Baptist Theology

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Walter

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Moriah, you say of 'WestminsterMan, 'You do blasphemy against God when you call your Pope “Holy Father.” According to 'WestminsterMan's' personal profile, this board member is a Baptist, in fact, attends a Landmark Baptist church. Does anyone who challenges your beliefs about Catholicism make them a 'papist'? If so, there are a lot of 'closet Catholics' on this board.
 

Moriah

New Member
Thinkingstuff,

All I will say to you in reply to that lying twisted mess you posted to me is:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” See Genesis 3:1.

In addition, look up the temptation of Jesus. There you will see how Satan and you use scripture.
 
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Moriah

New Member
Moriah, you say of 'WestminsterMan, 'You do blasphemy against God when you call your Pope “Holy Father.” According to 'WestminsterMan's' personal profile, this board member is a Baptist, in fact, attends a Landmark Baptist church. Does anyone who challenges your beliefs about Catholicism make them a 'papist'? If so, there are a lot of 'closet Catholics' on this board.

Looks like you answered your own question. If he calls the Pope “Holy Father,” then he is a blasphemer. How do you get confused over that?
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Now getting back to the original intent of this thread. I would like to Bring up Francis Beckwith former president of the Evangelical Theological Society.

These are some of the things he has said.
During one afternoon in February 1978 I knelt down next to my bed and asked God to help me in my apperant unbelief...I visited with Russell (an Evangelical Protestant teacher). We talked about thrity minutes. He then offered to pray with me so that I could ask the Lord back into my life. After we prayed, Russell hooked me up with a weekly bible study, in which I participated for the next three years. I soon became a regular Sunday attendee of Neighborhood Foursquare Church in Henderson, Nevada...Because I listen to some of Walter Martin's tapes years earlier when I was attending Maranatha House, it was a delight to hear and see him in person for the first time. Martin ended his last night of lectures with this challenge to the audience: "You should pray and ask the Lord if he is calling you to a ministry in apologetics." I took Martin's advice and prayed...The church put me in contact with ... Danny Green, who had helped bring Martin to Las Vegas. Danny is a terrific lay apologyist who, over the years, put me in contact with the works of many Christian writers including Francis A. Schaeffer, C. Everett Koop, Norman L. Geisler, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, and John Warwick Montogmery...Danny Green has since become a stong Calvinist, having come under the influence of the writings of Michael Scott Horton and R. C. Sproul. This, However, does not suprise me. For my experience has been that most very intelligent Christians who had come to a deeper walk with Christ in independent Evangelical and/or non-liturgical churches often gravitate towards a theological and/or ecclesiastical traditions that has strong roots, such as Calvinism, Lutheranism, Catholicism, or Eastern Orthodoxy. Danny and I are still very close friends, even though I know he is not entirely comfortable with my return to Catholicism. - Return to ROME Confessions of an Evangelical Catholic - Francis J. Beckwith p. 43-45
Again another testimony of a convert to Catholicism. Walter's questions still hold how do you deal with this?
 
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drfuss

New Member
I have been following this discussion and find it interesting and surprising.

The applicable scripture of some of the discussion is Matt 23:6-10:

"6 And (the Pharisees) love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

The message here is that Christians should not address another Christian by an elevated title. In those days, the elevated titles were: Rabbi, Teacher, Father, and Master. Today, the corresponding elevated titles are: Father, Pastor, Reverend, and Preacher.

In todays churches, I have seen laymen address the ministers by Father, Pastor, Reverend and Preacher. Yes, addressing another Christian by Father is against scripture. But the same things occurs in Protestant churches except the elevated titles are: Pastor, Reverend and Preacher. These are just as wrong as addressing the Priest as Father in the Catholic Church.

I have seen ministers actively let it be known that they want to be called Pastor. The Pastor in our current church encouages people to call him by his first name, and people respect him for that.

We should not find fault with the Catholics, when people in our churches do the same type of thing.
 

Moriah

New Member
We should not find fault with the Catholics, when people in our churches do the same type of thing.



We are supposed to debate, contend, teach, correct, and rebuke falseness. That is what the scriptures say.

It is good pointing out too about some titles given to non-Catholics.
 
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Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
We are supposed to debate, contend, teach, correct, and rebuke falseness. That is what the scriptures say.

It is good pointing out too about some titles given to non-Catholics.

You keep trying to de-rail this thread and make about 'call no man father'. Maybe you can answer the question 'Thinkingstuff' asks about the evangelical theologians converting to Catholicism? Never were saved to begin with??
 

WestminsterMan

New Member
You just make up things about other people. There is no dodge. You do blasphemy against God when you call your Pope “Holy Father.” Now stop saying I denied saying that to you.

Hmmm... Why should I deny the truth? Let's look at your own posts!

Originally Posted by Moriah
What blasphemy that you are a part of, giving sinful man the name reserved for God, putting that man in long flowing robes, taking the seat of most importance, people even kissing his feet! How is it that you do not see the evil in all this?

and then I said...

Originally Posted by WestminsterMan
Hmmm... I don't know what blasphemy I am a part of. But, if by that accusation you mean that anyone who takes exception to one claiming to be a Christian, yet routinely spews garbage like the above, well then yes... I guess that makes me a blasphemer.

to which you replied...

Originally Posted by Moriah
I did not accuse anyone of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you can stop with the false accusations. I want us to be like minded in Christ, and that is why I discuss the truth. When I was in a false religion, and when someone else kept telling me how evil it was, I repented of it, and I am thankful that they spoke to me. If Catholics love God as they say they do then they would stop doing things against God.

That's a straw man! I didn't say that you accused me of blasphamy of the Holy Spirit. I said that you called me a blasphemer - and you did! And here you go again!

Originally Posted by Moriah
You just make up things about other people. There is no dodge. You do blasphemy against God when you call your Pope “Holy Father.” Now stop saying I denied saying that to you.

YeeeeeeeeHaw!

Originally Posted by Moriah
The Bible I use is an English version it is in English, so no one is “interpreting scripture” as you say. I only speak of what is in the Bible.

Yet not everthing is in the bible is it. Hmmm...

Originally Posted by Moriah
The Bible is plain and clear, it just gets confusing when people come up with all kinds of false doctrine.

Well let's see... You and I are both fallible creatures. We both read the same bible, yet come to different conclusions. You believe that I (or others) "...come up with all kinds of false doctrine" and that your interpretations are correct. However, I would posit that, since no one lives in a vacuum, your biblical positions must have been influenced by your own fallible understanding of scripture or, more likely, come directly from the interpretations and theology of others. Thus, your accusations that "… [scripture] just gets confusing when people come up with all kinds of false doctrine…" is based upon the false premise that you - a fallible creature - can see the truth in all of scripture while other fallible creatures cannot. Right…

Originally Posted by Moriah
You are a confused man for sure.

Really? Oh Lordy - my world is totally shattered and I will never be the same again. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Moriah
Make up your mind that you will only believe what the Bible says, not what a Pope says and your Catechism, only the Bible..."

And why should I "...only believe what the Bible says..." when the bible never says that we should do that. Again not everything was written in the bible.

John 20:30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

God did give us the ability to think for ourselves you know.

Originally Posted by Moriah
then you will not be so confused, and you will be blessed, if you only believe what is in the Bible and put it to practice

I can easily state that it is you who are confused and that if you read and understand that bible as I do, you would be otherwise, etc. etc. yada, yada, yada.

WM
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You keep trying to de-rail this thread and make about 'call no man father'. Maybe you can answer the question 'Thinkingstuff' asks about the evangelical theologians converting to Catholicism? Never were saved to begin with??
There are far more Catholics that convert, that is actually get saved, and join a Baptist church or other evangelical church then the other way around. The fact of the matter is, what you are looking for is the exception to the "rule" and then the why. Sometimes we don't know the why. But we do know the why when it works the other way around: thousands upon thousands of Catholics that get saved and join evangelical churches. That compared to the paltry few that you point out is not very significant is it?
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have been following this discussion and find it interesting and surprising.

The applicable scripture of some of the discussion is Matt 23:6-10:

"6 And (the Pharisees) love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

The message here is that Christians should not address another Christian by an elevated title. In those days, the elevated titles were: Rabbi, Teacher, Father, and Master. Today, the corresponding elevated titles are: Father, Pastor, Reverend, and Preacher.

In todays churches, I have seen laymen address the ministers by Father, Pastor, Reverend and Preacher. Yes, addressing another Christian by Father is against scripture. But the same things occurs in Protestant churches except the elevated titles are: Pastor, Reverend and Preacher. These are just as wrong as addressing the Priest as Father in the Catholic Church.

I have seen ministers actively let it be known that they want to be called Pastor. The Pastor in our current church encouages people to call him by his first name, and people respect him for that.

We should not find fault with the Catholics, when people in our churches do the same type of thing.

Well said, however the particular term "Father" is specifically discussed in the bible. That said, I personally try to avoid it. Next time you see the Reverend Al Sharpton on MSNBC, hiss at him! :laugh:
 

Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
There are far more Catholics that convert, that is actually get saved, and join a Baptist church or other evangelical church then the other way around. The fact of the matter is, what you are looking for is the exception to the "rule" and then the why. Sometimes we don't know the why. But we do know the why when it works the other way around: thousands upon thousands of Catholics that get saved and join evangelical churches. That compared to the paltry few that you point out is not very significant is it?

The 'paltry' few? Not in the area I live. Conversions to the Catholic Church are by no means few. I would probably agree with you that Baptists are not big in number when it comes to conversions but to say 'few' from evangelical churches? Not what I'm witnessing. Whether or not you agree with them, Catholic evangelization is quite effective. In my own church, the former Catholics were what I would call 'cultural Catholics' and never knew much about Catholicism to begin with. I know far more about the teachings of the Catholic Church than any of them I have talked to.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
The 'paltry' few? Not in the area I live. Conversions to the Catholic Church are by no means few. I would probably agree with you that Baptists are not big in number when it comes to conversions but to say 'few' from evangelical churches? Not what I'm witnessing. Whether or not you agree with them, Catholic evangelization is quite effective. In my own church, the former Catholics were what I would call 'cultural Catholics' and never knew much about Catholicism to begin with. I know far more about the teachings of the Catholic Church than any of them I have talked to.
OTOH, I can send you an article where evangelical churches are prospering but Catholic church after Catholic Church are closing their doors and selling their property.
 

Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
OTOH, I can send you an article where evangelical churches are prospering but Catholic church after Catholic Church are closing their doors and selling their property.

Again, I guess it depends on where you live. The Catholic Church shows steady growth in the U.S. Catholic Churches are standing room only in my part of the country and building new churches. You are in Canada. The whole state of Christianity is pretty sad in those parts, right? Some evangelicals are former Catholics, but I haven't met any yet that were ever that knowlegeable about their faith before leaving that church.

The reality here in the U.S. is that the Catholic Church continues to show growth. The SBC, on the other hand, continues to show decline and that with very dubious membership reporting. The SBC is notorius for counting members who haven't darkened the doors of SBC churches in years.

*' More than a quarter of American adults have left the faith of their childhood in favor of another religion - or no religion at all. If change in affiliation from one type of Protestantism to another is included, roughly 44% of American adults have either switched religious affiliation, moved from being unaffiliated with any religion to being affiliated with a particular faith, or dropped any connection to a specific religious tradition altogether.'

http://www.huliq.com/51600/religious-survey-find-catholic-church-growth-steady-usa
 

Walter

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
. . . and, yes, a lot of people DO leave the Catholic Church. More often, it seems, for no church at all. Now I think WHY they leave would be interesting. Maybe they want a religion that accepts divorce.
They want a religion that doesn't tell them to have children.
They want a religion that makes them feel warm and fuzzy.
They want a religion that says they can have as many wives as
they want.
They want a religion that says if they are wealthy they are the
best. Can you say Prosperity Gospel?
They want a religion that says they are as great as God.
They want a religion that puts women down.
Or, they want no religion at all.

I think you get the idea.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
. . . and, yes, a lot of people DO leave the Catholic Church.
Why would they leave Walter?
Church struggles with change
By Cathy Lynn Grossman and Anthony DeBarros, USA TODAY

The Catholic Church is changing in America at its most visible point: the parish church where believers pray, sing and clasp hands across pews to share the peace of God.

Today there are fewer parishes and fewer priests than in 1990 and fewer of the nation's 65 million Catholics in those pews. And there's no sign of return.

Some blame the explosive 2002 clergy sexual abuse scandal and its financial price tag. But a USA TODAY study of 176 Roman Catholic dioceses shows no statistically significant link between the decline in priests and parishes and the $772 million the church has spent to date on dealing with the scandal.

Rather, the changes are driven by a constellation of factors:

• Catholics are moving from cities in the Northeast and Midwest to the suburbs, South and Southwest.

• For decades, so few men have become priests that one in five dioceses now can't put a priest in every parish.

• Mass attendance has fallen as each generation has become less religiously observant.

• Bishops — trained to bless, not to budget — lack the managerial skills to govern multimillion-dollar institutions.

All these trends had begun years before the scandal piled on financial pressures to cover settlements, legal costs, care and counseling for victims and abusers.

From 1990 to 2003, the number of active diocesan and religious-order priests fell 22%, and the number of parishes in 176 dioceses and archdioceses dropped to 18,441. That's a loss of 547 parishes, a 3% drop nationwide, which seems small — unless it's the church where you buried your mother or baptized your baby.

MORE EMPTY PEWS
The percentage of Catholics who say they attend Mass every week is steadily declining.
1987 44%
1993 41%
1999 37%
2005 * 33%
* projected

Source: American Catholics: Gender, Generation and Commitment

By Adrienne Lewis, USA TODAY
USA TODAY's analysis supports the arguments bishops are making as they close churches.

The Archdiocese of Boston, epicenter of the crisis, sold chancery property to cover $85 million in settlements last year, and this year will close 67 churches and recast 16 others as new parishes or worship sites without a full-time priest.

Archbishop Sean O'Malley has said the crisis and the reconfiguration plan are "in no way" related. He cites demographic shifts, the priest shortage and aging, crumbling buildings too costly to keep up.

Fargo, N.D., which spent $821,000 on the abuse crisis, will close 23 parishes, but it's because the diocese is short more than 50 priests for its 158 parishes, some with fewer than a dozen families attending Mass.

They know how this feels in Milwaukee. That archdiocese shuttered about one in five parishes from 1995 to 2003.

"It was like three funerals," choir director Arlene Skwierawski says. The sanctuary for her beloved Holy Angels Church is now a basketball court for an urban day school.

Still, she went on to create a new choir at a new parish, All Saints. Most of its singers came from vanished parishes. But some voices from vanished choirs did not return.

The city consolidations "gave some people who had been driving back into the city from new homes in the suburbs a chance to say they had no loyalty to a new parish and begin going to one near their home," says Noreen Welte, director of parish planning for the Milwaukee Archdiocese.

"It gave some people who already were mad at the church for one reason or another an excuse to stop going altogether."

Did they go home to brood? Lose their faith? Leave town?

Religion is not tracked in the U.S. Census, and diocese population numbers in the Official Catholic Directory are bishops' estimates. Some reported the exact same number for 14 years. One told a statistician to bump the count up 50% to cover the people he thought should be there.

But the Census does confirm the general demographic shift from historic centers of Catholics in Eastern and Midwestern cities to suburbia and "the 'new Sun Belt' — Georgia, the Carolinas and the Southwest. Atlanta is really a 30-county suburb today," says William Frey, a demographer with the Brookings Institution.

Catholics and the parishes and priests that serve them follow the same pattern: From 1990 to 2003, the number of Catholics in Dallas more than quadrupled. It's up another 153% in neighboring Fort Worth, and up 137% in Raleigh, N.C.


Left behind: the cold and the old.

From 1990 to 2003, Pittsburgh closed 30% of its parishes; Grand Island, Neb., 29%; and Altoona-Johnstown, Pa., 27%.

In the same period, Springfield, Mass., lost 44% of active priests, Dubuque 41% and Rochester, N.Y., 40%. The national total fell by 9,264 priests, to 33,028.

Archdioceses, the 31 traditional Catholic centers where about 40% of U.S. Catholics live, are hit hard. All but one, Miami, saw a double-digit percentage decline in the number of priests. More than half of archdioceses lost parishes in the past 14 years.

The number of lapsed Catholics is harder to quantify. Like many Americans who view their faith as a cultural flourish, not an active commitment, they rarely go to church. Their Catholic identity gives a language and lilt to their prayers but makes little claim on their time, talents or income.

It's an established trend abroad where "parishes are often sacramental filling stations — people come for the Eucharist, baptisms, marriages and funerals, but little else," writes John Allen, Vatican columnist for the weekly National Catholic Reporter, a weekly newspaper.

"American Catholics have become consumers, church-shopping like their Protestant neighbors and choosing their parish by the school or the theological perspective or the music that matches them," says Brian Reynolds, chancellor for the Archdiocese of Louisville. "We have people coming from 30 or 40 or 50 ZIP codes to the church they prefer."

No one knows the ZIP codes of the no-shows.


Mass attendance dwindling

The "most damaging change in Catholic life is the precipitous decline in Mass attendance. It's the sign of a church collapsing," says Catholic University sociologist William D'Antonio, co-author of statistical studies of American Catholics.

Nationally, attendance slid from 44% in 1987 to 37% in 1999. D'Antonio predicts it will be 33% in 2005.

"Each generation starts with a lower attendance rating. People don't grow into attending Mass," he says.

It's the bishops who must negotiate these torrents of change, all conflicting, costly and traumatic. Many see their budgets pinched less by the costs of the abuse crisis than by the impact of the sluggish economy and the rising costs of operations.

They need help. "Planning, personnel and funding — the big trio — all require expertise that's not built into church training," Reynolds says.

Yet, just one in three bishops follows "best practices" outlined by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, says Francis Butler of Foundations and Donors Interested in Catholic Activities Inc.

They don't have to. Bishops are autonomous. They act with only as much guidance from laity, experts and each other as they choose.

But they're mistrustful of outside voices. Many of the same critics calling for financial transparency also challenge traditions such as celibacy.

The bishops see any reform as a slippery slope: "Give up oversight of the books and the next thing you know they'll want women priests," says David Gibson, author of The Coming Catholic Church. "They can't separate ... doctrine and bookkeeping."

And now, after the abuse crisis, the laity is wary of the bishops. They feel excluded from significant decisions that will shape their parish life for years to come.

"You can't trust your bishops. You can't trust your priest. The parish where you were baptized and raised is being closed. And they want money to build a suburban church, but your kids aren't going to Mass. For a church that prides itself on tradition and certainty, these are uncertain times," says Gibson.

Shuffling a dwindling number of people into bigger Masses at fewer parish churches is no solution, says Steve Krueger, former spokesman for Voice of the Faithful, the Boston-based lay activist group formed during the abuse crisis that is a leading critic of the reconfiguration.

"They haven't addressed the real problem of plummeting Mass attendance. The demographic trends aren't turning around. And they are far from solving the priest shortage," says Krueger.

One thing is clear: Bishops and believers need each other to address the challenges.

"The Catholic world was once marked by stability," Gibson says. "Now all it is marked by is change."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2004-11-07-church-main_x.htm
This is a secular source. It gives all the reasons why they are leaving. I agree, but add that Catholics are getting saved, searching for something to fill the spiritual void that is in their heart that only Christ himself can fill. You will never find that in the RCC.
 

WestminsterMan

New Member
Why would they leave Walter?
This is a secular source. It gives all the reasons why they are leaving. I agree, but add that Catholics are getting saved, searching for something to fill the spiritual void that is in their heart that only Christ himself can fill. You will never find that in the RCC.

Wrong DHK... YOU will never find that in the RCC. Others do.

WM
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Wrong DHK... YOU will never find that in the RCC. Others do.

WM
I was there for 20 years. They don't preach the gospel. They don't preach a gospel message. I know that for a fact: from experience, from the Catechism itself. The Catechism teaches a heretical message which Paul in Gal.1:8 calls "accursed."
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
I was there for 20 years. They don't preach the gospel. They don't preach a gospel message. I know that for a fact: from experience, from the Catechism itself. The Catechism teaches a heretical message which Paul in Gal.1:8 calls "accursed."

You just proved his point.
YOU will never find that in the RCC. Others do.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You just proved his point.
Luther himself proves him wrong.
So does the Bible.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
A man is justified by faith and faith alone.
The Catholic church does not believe that, and neither its adherents.
As long as that one fact remains true, they are doomed never to enter heaven. So then "What do they find?"
 

WestminsterMan

New Member
Luther himself proves him wrong.
So does the Bible.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
A man is justified by faith and faith alone.
The Catholic church does not believe that, and neither its adherents.
As long as that one fact remains true, they are doomed never to enter heaven. So then "What do they find?"

Ok... Let me see if I have this correct.

a) Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

b) From that one verse you have arrived at: "A man is justified by faith and faith alone."

c) Yet, nowhere does scripture state that we are justified by faith ALONE. Just for the record, you (and Luther) added that bit. (Hey...you brought in Luther not me)

d) DHK said: "The Catholic church does not believe that, and neither its adherents."

TRUE! They don't believe it because it's not biblical.

e) DHK said: "As long as that one fact remains true, they are doomed never to enter heaven."

It not a fact and it's certainly not true. I think most knowledgable Catholics are quite comfortable with their final destination. Further, I doubt that many Catholics would take much stock in your judgement of their salvation. I mean... since you're not God and all.

WM
 
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