Salvation in Catholic and Baptist Theology

Moriah, you say of 'WestminsterMan, 'You do blasphemy against God when you call your Pope “Holy Father.” According to 'WestminsterMan's' personal profile, this board member is a Baptist, in fact, attends a Landmark Baptist church. Does anyone who challenges your beliefs about Catholicism make them a 'papist'? If so, there are a lot of 'closet Catholics' on this board.

 

Thinkingstuff,

All I will say to you in reply to that lying twisted mess you posted to me is:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” See Genesis 3:1.

In addition, look up the temptation of Jesus. There you will see how Satan and you use scripture.

 

Looks like you answered your own question. If he calls the Pope “Holy Father,” then he is a blasphemer. How do you get confused over that?

 

Now getting back to the original intent of this thread. I would like to Bring up Francis Beckwith former president of the Evangelical Theological Society.

These are some of the things he has said.

Again another testimony of a convert to Catholicism. Walter's questions still hold how do you deal with this?

 

I have been following this discussion and find it interesting and surprising.

The applicable scripture of some of the discussion is Matt 23:6-10:

"6 And (the Pharisees) love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

The message here is that Christians should not address another Christian by an elevated title. In those days, the elevated titles were: Rabbi, Teacher, Father, and Master. Today, the corresponding elevated titles are: Father, Pastor, Reverend, and Preacher.

In todays churches, I have seen laymen address the ministers by Father, Pastor, Reverend and Preacher. Yes, addressing another Christian by Father is against scripture. But the same things occurs in Protestant churches except the elevated titles are: Pastor, Reverend and Preacher. These are just as wrong as addressing the Priest as Father in the Catholic Church.

I have seen ministers actively let it be known that they want to be called Pastor. The Pastor in our current church encouages people to call him by his first name, and people respect him for that.

We should not find fault with the Catholics, when people in our churches do the same type of thing.

 

We are supposed to debate, contend, teach, correct, and rebuke falseness. That is what the scriptures say.

It is good pointing out too about some titles given to non-Catholics.

 

You keep trying to de-rail this thread and make about 'call no man father'. Maybe you can answer the question 'Thinkingstuff' asks about the evangelical theologians converting to Catholicism? Never were saved to begin with??

 

Hmmm... Why should I deny the truth? Let's look at your own posts!

and then I said...

to which you replied...

That's a straw man! I didn't say that you accused me of blasphamy of the Holy Spirit. I said that you called me a blasphemer - and you did! And here you go again!

YeeeeeeeeHaw!

Yet not everthing is in the bible is it. Hmmm...

Well let's see... You and I are both fallible creatures. We both read the same bible, yet come to different conclusions. You believe that I (or others) "...come up with all kinds of false doctrine" and that your interpretations are correct. However, I would posit that, since no one lives in a vacuum, your biblical positions must have been influenced by your own fallible understanding of scripture or, more likely, come directly from the interpretations and theology of others. Thus, your accusations that "… [scripture] just gets confusing when people come up with all kinds of false doctrine…" is based upon the false premise that you - a fallible creature - can see the truth in all of scripture while other fallible creatures cannot. Right…

Really? Oh Lordy - my world is totally shattered and I will never be the same again.

And why should I "...only believe what the Bible says..." when the bible never says that we should do that. Again not everything was written in the bible.

John 20:30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.

John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

God did give us the ability to think for ourselves you know.

I can easily state that it is you who are confused and that if you read and understand that bible as I do, you would be otherwise, etc. etc. yada, yada, yada.

WM

 

There are far more Catholics that convert, that is actually get saved, and join a Baptist church or other evangelical church then the other way around. The fact of the matter is, what you are looking for is the exception to the "rule" and then the why. Sometimes we don't know the why. But we do know the why when it works the other way around: thousands upon thousands of Catholics that get saved and join evangelical churches. That compared to the paltry few that you point out is not very significant is it?

 

Well said, however the particular term "Father" is specifically discussed in the bible. That said, I personally try to avoid it. Next time you see the Reverend Al Sharpton on MSNBC, hiss at him! :laugh:

 

The 'paltry' few? Not in the area I live. Conversions to the Catholic Church are by no means few. I would probably agree with you that Baptists are not big in number when it comes to conversions but to say 'few' from evangelical churches? Not what I'm witnessing. Whether or not you agree with them, Catholic evangelization is quite effective. In my own church, the former Catholics were what I would call 'cultural Catholics' and never knew much about Catholicism to begin with. I know far more about the teachings of the Catholic Church than any of them I have talked to.

 

OTOH, I can send you an article where evangelical churches are prospering but Catholic church after Catholic Church are closing their doors and selling their property.

 

Again, I guess it depends on where you live. The Catholic Church shows steady growth in the U.S. Catholic Churches are standing room only in my part of the country and building new churches. You are in Canada. The whole state of Christianity is pretty sad in those parts, right? Some evangelicals are former Catholics, but I haven't met any yet that were ever that knowlegeable about their faith before leaving that church.

The reality here in the U.S. is that the Catholic Church continues to show growth. The SBC, on the other hand, continues to show decline and that with very dubious membership reporting. The SBC is notorius for counting members who haven't darkened the doors of SBC churches in years.

*' More than a quarter of American adults have left the faith of their childhood in favor of another religion - or no religion at all. If change in affiliation from one type of Protestantism to another is included, roughly 44% of American adults have either switched religious affiliation, moved from being unaffiliated with any religion to being affiliated with a particular faith, or dropped any connection to a specific religious tradition altogether.'

http://www.huliq.com/51600/religious-survey-find-catholic-church-growth-steady-usa

 

. . . and, yes, a lot of people DO leave the Catholic Church. More often, it seems, for no church at all. Now I think WHY they leave would be interesting. Maybe they want a religion that accepts divorce.
They want a religion that doesn't tell them to have children.
They want a religion that makes them feel warm and fuzzy.
They want a religion that says they can have as many wives as
they want.
They want a religion that says if they are wealthy they are the
best. Can you say Prosperity Gospel?
They want a religion that says they are as great as God.
They want a religion that puts women down.
Or, they want no religion at all.

I think you get the idea.

 

Why would they leave Walter?

This is a secular source. It gives all the reasons why they are leaving. I agree, but add that Catholics are getting saved, searching for something to fill the spiritual void that is in their heart that only Christ himself can fill. You will never find that in the RCC.

 

Wrong DHK... YOU will never find that in the RCC. Others do.

WM

 

I was there for 20 years. They don't preach the gospel. They don't preach a gospel message. I know that for a fact: from experience, from the Catechism itself. The Catechism teaches a heretical message which Paul in Gal.1:8 calls "accursed."

 

You just proved his point.

 

Luther himself proves him wrong.
So does the Bible.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
A man is justified by faith and faith alone.
The Catholic church does not believe that, and neither its adherents.
As long as that one fact remains true, they are doomed never to enter heaven. So then "What do they find?"

 

Ok... Let me see if I have this correct.

a) Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

b) From that one verse you have arrived at: "A man is justified by faith and faith alone."

c) Yet, nowhere does scripture state that we are justified by faith ALONE. Just for the record, you (and Luther) added that bit. (Hey...you brought in Luther not me)

d) DHK said: "The Catholic church does not believe that, and neither its adherents."

TRUE! They don't believe it because it's not biblical.

e) DHK said: "As long as that one fact remains true, they are doomed never to enter heaven."

It not a fact and it's certainly not true. I think most knowledgable Catholics are quite comfortable with their final destination. Further, I doubt that many Catholics would take much stock in your judgement of their salvation. I mean... since you're not God and all.

WM