Try answering the post itself. What is the difference between the Catholic bowing down in front of the stations of the cross and praying before them, and what the Hindus do?
Answer:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1792294&postcount=110
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Statues
- Thread starter Moriah
- Start date
- Status
Answer:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1792294&postcount=110
I have read and responded to all these irrational posts. They are all based upon the same irrational premises.
1. They ignore that Exodus 20:4 is directed toward man conceived and made images of things in heaven and earth rather than God conceived and made articles for God's House.
2. They ignore the fact that no man has the right to conceive, design or make any images mandatory in connection with worship or in God's House of worship. Neither Moses, David or Solomon had that right but had to be directly authorized by God, given a pattern by God and instructed in the proper use of such things by God. This text prohibits all human beings from doing such. Exodus 20:5 prohibts acts of worship being directed toward any kind of image regardless where it is found as worship belongs exclusively to God.
3. They ignore that God alone has the right/authority to conceive, design and command to make articles relevant to HIS own house for HIS own designs according to HIS own patterns. Rome does not have that authority. Rome has not been explicitly commanded by God to make any such images/articles/furniture necessary for God's House. Rome has not been given patterns to make such things for God's house.
Conclusion:
a. You cannot prove that Exodus 20:4 has any valid application to anyone but humans and human conceived articles for human conceived worship.
b. You cannot prove that Exodus 20:4 denies God the right to command men to make furniture and images for His house according to His patterns for His purposes all of which never contradict the primary purpose behind Exodus 20:4-5 which is to prohibit man conceived false worship.
c. hence, Rome is guilty of violating Exodus 20:4-5 by man conceived, man made and man designed images. Rome is guilty of usurping God's right, God's Authority to conceive, design and determine what articles are used in His own worship.
c. You cannot prove that Rome has been explicitly commanded by God to make certain images necessary for the Worship of God or that such images were designed by God given patterns expressly for their making.
Last edited by a moderator:
You speak ignorantly. I made absolutely NO PERSONAL ATTACKS upon anyone! If you believe I did then it is your responsibility to provide the evidence or be quiet.
I provided interpretative principles and then applied it to Rome. Rome violates Exodus 20:4-5 BECAUSE Rome has no authority from God to conceive, design or make any kind of MANDATORY article/image for worship of God or to be used in God's House. Only God has that right. Only God has that pattern. Only God determines the application of such things. Exodus 20:4-5 prohibits man conceived, man designed and therefore man made articles/images to be used either in God's house or for worship or objects receiving worship.
In fact, it is you that has responded with Ad Hominen attacks - no substance, nothing but inferences that attack my person.
BTW Exodus 20:4 prohibits man to "conceive" building such images as it is impossible to build something without first conceiving of what it is that you are making.
Idolatry begins IN THE MIND with a wrong perception of God that is made visible by making that perception into an image.
Idolatry also involves worshipping the true God through DISTORTED visible expressions. This is exactly what was behind the two golden calves in the wilderness. Jehovah the true God was visibly associated with two golden images made by Aaron. The idoltrous pictures of Christ, the image of the crucifix and other visible means are idoltrous because those who worship God "MUST" worship God "IN SPIRIT" and never in connection with visible images.
Idolatry also involves worship of God
Colossians 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Those ordinances (laws), are nailed to the cross, to be remembered no more. They were mere shadows of the real thing (Christ, and his one time sacrifice of grace). We live under grace, not the law.
My point exactly. Neither Leviticus 19:27 nor Exodus 20:4-5 (nor many other laws as well) have been expressly abrogated in the N.T. However, Colossians 2 and a few other passages make it clear that we are no longer bound by the law. So we can trim our beards, observe Sunday as our Sabbath and, yes, erect two and three dimensional images in our churches.
As an aside, DHK, do you think Paul was talking exclusively about the law or was he also addressing some pagan practices of the Colossians?
Most of which he was addressing was the law, for the context reveals that it was the Judaizers that were trying to force the law and circumcision upon these believers as requirements for salvation.
However, Paul was speaking about the ceremonial law, not necessarily the moral law which includes nine of the Ten Commandments. Making images is one of those Ten Commandments. Those commands have not been done away with.
Again Jesus said: God is spirit; they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth (not via images). Thus images are forbidden.
A young child can read and understand God’s commands not to make images, and not to bow to them. I read the Bible as a young child, went to the Catholic Church, and wondered how they could make statues and how the priests can have everyone call them ‘father.’ Those are two of the simplest commands, yet defiant sins by Catholics.
I show you the truth, yet you still do not believe
You dare try to use other scriptures in hopes it will defend your sin of disobedience. You compare yourself to God, and that is your “well thought-out analyses” of a defense? You should be fearful.
Now you put down the written word. As for Jesus founding a church, Jesus IS the church. Do you really think the church is a building, a building with blasphemy and falseness through and through to boot.
The Apostles spoke to the people, and they WROTE LETTERS AND BOOKS for the believers. The first Christians accepted as scripture New Testament teachings by letter and books. In 1 Timothy 5:18 Paul joins a New Testament scripture (Luke 10:7) to an Old Testament scripture (Deuteronomy 25:4) and calls them both scripture. In addition, we can see in 2 Peter 3:15-16 Peter recognizes what Paul writes as scripture.
2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Last edited by a moderator:
Wow, are there other people on this board besides Moriah who believe that 'Jesus IS the church'? Sounds pretty heretical. Did you get that from your simple reading of the scriptures? I always thought the Body of Christ made up the church.
Besides, I have read NOWHERE JarJo saying that a church building is the church. Could you please point to that post? I would also appreciate the chapter and verse that your simple reading of the bible shows you that 'Jesus IS the church'.
COLOSSIANS 1:24 NKJ
24 . . . the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
1 CORINTHIANS 12:27 NKJ
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
Besides, I have read NOWHERE JarJo saying that a church building is the church. Could you please point to that post? I would also appreciate the chapter and verse that your simple reading of the bible shows you that 'Jesus IS the church'.
COLOSSIANS 1:24 NKJ
24 . . . the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
1 CORINTHIANS 12:27 NKJ
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
Last edited by a moderator:
First, why don't you apply this to stealing, lying and adultery???
Second, the first three commandments are eternal because God is eternal and violating those commandments perverts God and true worship to the true God.
Third, the Mosaic law as a "covenant" under a theocratic earthly government has been abolished and Leviticus is part of the ceremonial Levitical law (Col. 2:16).
Fourth, is this the best response you have?? If so, then you have conceded defeat already.
You have no idea what you are saying. You just gave two scriptures that tell us Jesus Christ is the church.
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. I Corinthians 12:12-27.
Just to get this straight in my head, Moriah: The body of Christ is not the church, Jesus Himself makes up the church? Then what is 'the bride of Christ?' Not the church? Maybe I am misunderstanding you?
I know this is off-topic, feel free to private message me if I am misunderstanding you.
Last edited by a moderator:
JarJo said the Catholic Church was the True Church.
The Bride is the New Jerusalem. See Revelation 21:10.
Christ is the head of the church, his body. We are the body of Christ. Christ's body, the church. See 1 Corinthians 12:27; Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18, 24.
Study these scriptures carefully, and maybe they will help you understand more.
John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.
Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Ok, JarJo never said that the church was a building. JarJo said that the Catholic Church is the 'True Church'. That is different than saying it is a building.
I agree with the rest of this post. I misunderstood you. Thanks for taking the time to clear this up for me.
Do you know what a metaphor is and how it is used? Your interpretation of 1 Cor. 12:27 shows that you have no concept of a metaphor. Either the church is the LITERAL body of Christ (flesh and blood) or it is His metaphorical body. It does not take too much sense to realize it is not the LITERAL body of Jesus Christ because the LITERAL body of Jesus Christ is now in heaven not on earth.
Thank you for the thanks.
As for JarJo saying the Catholic Church is the True Church, he is wrong, because true believers are the church.
If you say the Catholic Church is the True Church, then how else can one take it?
It cannot mean the church "is" the physical human body of Jesus Christ because that body does not reside on earth but the one in 1 Cor. 12:27 does reside on earth at Corinth. He did not say "WE" but "YE"!
As a Catholic, I do own any number of "holy" pictures, statues etc. Prominent is the crucifix in my hall. They are there to remind me of what is important, ie God.
The historical aspect I think has to do with the iconclasts of the past. It is NOT the teaching of the RCC to idolise plaster and paint. They are not necessary but are a comfort for those who want reminders of what is important in life.....
The historical aspect I think has to do with the iconclasts of the past. It is NOT the teaching of the RCC to idolise plaster and paint. They are not necessary but are a comfort for those who want reminders of what is important in life.....
- Status