Statues

[Walter]

It is your turn to answer questions.
Are you going to stop bowing to the works of your hands?
Are you going to be a Christian who obeys God and stop bowing to servants of the Lord?

Wow! You just continue to evade the questions. Where did I ever say that I bow to servants of the Lord? Not that I see a problem with that if the intent is to show respect. You, however, have dodged the questions over and over and just hurl accusations. Since you cannot or will not answer, maybe some people who have served on the mission field could weigh in on their experiences in countries where bowing out of respect and in greeting is common among Christians.

 

[The Biblicist]

The question was... "Is bowing to angels or to people acceptable to God?"

Based upon your response I must conclude that your answer is no.

But...

Genesis 19:1-5 1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."

Genesis 23:6-8
6 "Sir, listen to us. You are a mighty prince among us. Bury your dead in the choicest of our tombs. None of us will refuse you his tomb for burying your dead."
7 Then Abraham rose and bowed down before the people of the land, the Hittites. 8 He said to them, "If you are willing to let me bury my dead, then listen to me and intercede with Ephron son of Zohar on my behalf

Genesis 23:12-13
12 Again Abraham bowed down before the people of the land 13 and he said to Ephron in their hearing, "Listen to me, if you will. I will pay the price of the field. Accept it from me so I can bury my dead there."

Genesis 27:27-30
27 So he went to him and kissed him. When Isaac caught the smell of his clothes, he blessed him and said,
"Ah, the smell of my son
is like the smell of a field
that the LORD has blessed.
28 May God give you of heaven's dew
and of earth's richness—
an abundance of grain and new wine.
29 May nations serve you
and peoples bow down to you.
Be lord over your brothers,
and may the sons of your mother bow down to you.
May those who curse you be cursed
and those who bless you be blessed."
30 After Isaac finished blessing him and Jacob had scarcely left his father's presence, his brother Esau came in from hunting.

Genesis 33:1-4
Jacob Meets Esau
1 Jacob looked up and there was Esau, coming with his four hundred men; so he divided the children among Leah, Rachel and the two maidservants. 2 He put the maidservants and their children in front, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph in the rear. 3 He himself went on ahead and bowed down to the ground seven times as he approached his brother. 4 But Esau ran to meet Jacob and embraced him; he threw his arms around his neck and kissed him. And they wept.

1 Kings 1:31
Then Bathsheba bowed low with her face to the ground and, kneeling before the king, said, "May my lord King David live forever!"

1 Kings 8:54
When Solomon had finished all these prayers and supplications to the LORD, he rose from before the altar of the LORD, where he had been kneeling with his hands spread out toward heaven.

Numbers 22:31
31 Then the LORD opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.

Exodus 11:8
All these officials of yours will come to me, bowing down before me and saying, ‘Go, you and all the people who follow you!’ After that I will leave.” Then Moses, hot with anger, left Pharaoh.

Notice that there is a difference between bowing/kneeling as a show of respect versus bowing/kneeling as a sign of worship. Thus intent DOES matter. However, if one makes the claim that when Catholics bow/kneel their intent doesn't matter (as many have done here), then by necessity one must also conclude that in all of these verses above, those bowing and kneeling were worshiping someone or something other than God regardless of their intent.

Oops...

WM

First, Biblical examples do not determine right or wrong as we can find Biblical examples of lying, stealing and fornication. Precepts determine doctrine not examples. Hence, simply because you can find examples of people bowing to angels and men does not prove it is right but simply verifies they did it.

Second, bowing that is prohibited is in the context of religious worship. That would include graven images used in religious worship. That would include religious acts toward things in heaven and things on earth other than God. In the Old Testament "the angel of the Lord" or "the messenger of the Lord" is believed by many to be theophanies of Jesus Christ in which cases worship is perfectly correct. However, Revelation 19:10-11 gives angelic commentary to bowing down to angels - it is prohibited.

 

[Moriah]

Wow! You just continue to evade the questions. Where did I ever say that I bow to servants of the Lord? Not that I see a problem with that if the intent is to show respect. You, however, have dodged the questions over and over and just hurl accusations. Since you cannot or will not answer, maybe some people who have served on the mission field could weigh in on their experiences in countries where bowing out of respect and in greeting is common among Christians.

I have answered your questions. You just do not like the answers. Stop trying to get away from answering.

If you are a Catholic, then you DO agree to bow to the works of your hands.

If you are a Catholic, then you DO agree to bow to another person of your faith.

Why will you not answer and tell us how you obey God?

 

[Walter]

I have answered your questions. You just do not like the answers. Stop trying to get away from answering.

If you are a Catholic, then you DO agree to bow to the works of your hands.

If you are a Catholic, then you DO agree to bow to another person of your faith.

Why will you not answer and tell us how you obey God?

I am a Baptist that presently attends Grace Bible Church, Ev. Free. However, you have not answered my questions. Anyone reading my last posts will know you have evaded my questions. If you can't answer, no problem. However, you are also evading WestminsterMan's questions as well.

 

[WestminsterMan]

When two angels come to you at Sodom, and your name is Lot, you can bow down with your face to the ground. When your name is Abraham, and you are before the Hitties, you can bow down before the people. When your name is Isaac and your father is Abraham, your father Abraham can tell you May nations serve you and peoples bow down to you. When you are Bathsheba, and you are before King David, you can bow low with your face to the ground and, kneeling before the king. When you are Jacob, and you meet your brother Esau, you can bow down to the ground seven times. When you are Balaam, and you see the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn, then you can bow low and fall facedown.

Do you understand now?

I think I finally get it. When you get backed into a corner, just make stuff up and hope the issue will simply disappear.

Show me the exceptions in scripture where " ...When two angels come to you at Sodom, and your name is Lot, [then and only then] you can bow down with your face to the ground.

-OR-

"... When your name is Abraham, and you are before the Hitties, [then and only then] you can bow down before the people. "

-OR-

"...When your name is Isaac and your father is Abraham, [then and only then] your father Abraham can tell you May nations serve you and peoples bow down to you."

-OR-

"...When you are Bathsheba, and you are before King David, [then and only then] you can bow low with your face to the ground and, kneeling before the king."

-OR-

"...When you are Jacob, and you meet your brother Esau, [then and only then] you can bow down to the ground seven times. "

-OR-

"...When you are Balaam, and you see the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn, then [and only then] you can bow low and fall facedown. [/quote]

What I understand is that you cannot logically defend your position so, rather than admit your error, you come up with this laughable garbage. I think the honest reader can see that you have no reasonable retort.

When you are a Christian, and you are around a fellow Christian, never bow down to him.

So then, by that logic it's ok to bow down to or kneel before someone so long as they are not a fellow christian.

When you are a Christian, do not bow down to the works of man’s hand.

Now tell me, how do you obey God?

I obey God by following the gospel to the best of my ability. Now let me tell you how I don't obey God...

I don't obey God by creating and following some sort of distorted view of scripture adhered to because of an internal hatred and fear of those by whom you feel threaten simply because they don't worship as you do.

WM

 

[DHK]

I obey God by following the gospel to the best of my ability. Now let me tell you how I don't obey God...

I don't obey God by creating and following some sort of distorted view of scripture adhered to because of an internal hatred and fear of those by whom you feel threaten simply because they don't worship as you do.

WM

Or perhaps it is because even when you do know what the Ten Commandments say, you choose to disobey them anyway because that is the tradition you grew up with. God forbid if we should ever depart from the tradition of the church we grew up in!

 

[WestminsterMan]

Or perhaps it is because even when you do know what the Ten Commandments say, you choose to disobey them anyway because that is the tradition you grew up with. God forbid if we should ever depart from the tradition of the church we grew up in!

Let me use one of your tactics DHK...do you keep all of the Commandments? No, you don't so don't try that with me.

Besides, I grew up as a SB so what are implying?

WM

 

[DHK]

Let me use one of your tactics DHK...do you keep all of the Commandments? No, you don't so don't try that with me.

Besides, I grew up as a SB so what are implying?

WM

No man can keep all the law. I fully realize that. But I don't go out of my way to make images, or bow down to them, as the Ten Commandments condemn. Neither do I countenance them that do.

 

[WestminsterMan]

First, Biblical examples do not determine right or wrong as we can find Biblical examples of lying, stealing and fornication. Precepts determine doctrine not examples. Hence, simply because you can find examples of people bowing to angels and men does not prove it is right but simply verifies they did it.

So Lot, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Bathsheba, Solomon, Balaam, and Moses either bowing down/kneeling or being bowed down or kneeled to, didn't violate the Ten Commandments? Either intent means something or it doesn't. You admit that they did it. So, did they violate the first commandment or not? It's a straight forward question which no one seems to be willing to address. Hmmm...

Second, bowing that is prohibited is in the context of religious worship. That would include graven images used in religious worship. That would include religious acts toward things in heaven and things on earth other than God. In the Old Testament "the angel of the Lord" or "the messenger of the Lord" is believed by many to be theophanies of Jesus Christ in which cases worship is perfectly correct.

Hogwash... They are referred to as angels and they were bowed down to. Some need this to be so in order to wriggle out of the problems that I pointed out. I could just as easily say that the angels were theophanies of pink elephants with just about as much authority.

However, Revelation 19:10-11 gives angelic commentary to bowing down to angels - it is prohibited.

I see...when it is convenient, you simply ignore the Old Testament. Heck, while we're at it, let's just eliminate every book but those written by Paul... It would certainly cut down on printing costs.

Really people... This is thin theology at best.

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

No man can keep all the law. I fully realize that. But I don't go out of my way to make images, or bow down to them, as the Ten Commandments condemn. Neither do I countenance them that do.

Well, many in the old testament bowed and kneeled to each other, to angels, to alters, etc. Are you saying that they were not in violation of God's law? You just can't on the one hand accuse Catholics of idolatry claiming that their intent is meaningless, and on the other hand give those O.T. titans a pass. Come on DHK...

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

So Lot, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Bathsheba, Solomon, Balaam, and Moses either bowing down/kneeling or being bowed down or kneeled to, didn't violate the Ten Commandments? Either intent means something or it doesn't. You admit that they did it. So, did they violate the first commandment or not? It's a straight forward question which no one seems to be willing to address. Hmmm...

Sorry, but examples prove nothing but only that did what they did. I can find tons of examples that violate everyone of the ten commandments but what does that prove? Nothing but they violated the precepts.

However, as I said before the prohibition of bowing is found in the context of worship and worshp alone. This should be obvious since the second commandment is sandwiched between the command to have no other gods and the command not to bow down and worship them.

Therefore, those examples of bowing outside of the context of worship do not violate the command but those which do are simply examples of disobedience.

If you have a problem with that contextual prohibition take it with God not me.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Sorry, but examples prove nothing but only that did what they did. I can find tons of examples that violate everyone of the ten commandments but what does that prove? Nothing but they violated the precepts.

However, as I said before the prohibition of bowing is found in the context of worship and worshp alone. This should be obvious since the second commandment is sandwiched between the command to have no other gods and the command not to bow down and worship them.

Therefore, those examples of bowing outside of the context of worship do not violate the command but those which do are simply examples of disobedience.

If you have a problem with that contextual prohibition take it with God not me.

So, you admit then that intent does matter (I.e bowing outside of the context of worship). In other words, if all of those OT people were bowing out of respect then, by your own example, that places them outside of the context of worship and thus, does not violate the commandment. And what is the deciding factor placing them outside of the context of worship? Their intent.

Good we are making progress. Now, all you need to do is give Catholics the benefit of taking them at their word and let God decide on the rest.

WM

 

[DHK]

Well, many in the old testament bowed and kneeled to each other, to angels, to alters, etc. Are you saying that they were not in violation of God's law? You just can't on the one hand accuse Catholics of idolatry claiming that their intent is meaningless, and on the other hand give those O.T. titans a pass. Come on DHK...

WM

We don't live in the OT, we live in NT times. We are to refrain from all kinds of idolatry, even more so than the OT saints. There are greater, not less, restrictions placed on us. With more light (NT), comes more responsibility.

 

[The Biblicist]

And what is the deciding factor placing them outside of the context of worship?

Any bowing in connection with graven images is forbidden as that is by definition within the context of what characterizes religious worship as bowing to graven images does not occur outside of what characterizes the context of religious worship.

The New Covenant House of God - the congregation and its meeting place has not received commandment from God to errect any kind of graven image to be used in connection with worship in God's House or in either public or private worship unto God. There is no justification for the making or using of graven images in the context of religious worship whatsoever under the New Covenant.

In regard to the Old covenant house of God there was no bowing directed to any article of furniture used in God's House or in personal or public acts of worship toward God.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Any bowing in connection with graven images is forbidden as that is by definition within the context of what characterizes religious worship as bowing to graven images does not occur outside of what characterizes the context of religious worship.

The New Covenant House of God - the congregation and its meeting place has not received commandment from God to errect any kind of graven image to be used in connection with worship in God's House or in either public or private worship unto God. There is no justification for the making or using of graven images in the context of religious worship whatsoever under the New Covenant.

In regard to the Old covenant house of God there was no bowing directed to any article of furniture used in God's House or in personal or public acts of worship toward God.

Well, the Catholics will tell you that they do so outside of the public acts of worship because they reserve worship for God alone. Anything else is out of respect -just like those OT characters. Can we say INTENT?

WM

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, the Catholics will tell you that they do so outside of the public acts of worship because they reserve worship for God alone. Anything else is out of respect -just like those OT characters. Can we say INTENT?

WM

That is because they are ignorant of what God defines as public and private worship. Public worship in the New Testament is described metaphorically as offering up spiritual sacrifices which include prayer, giving, serving, teaching, singing, ordinances, etc.

Images are never once permitted in God's house or for use by God's people in worship. God NEVER calls the "instruments" and "furniture" in his Old Covenant house "images" or "image" - NEVER! God forbids all images from his house and from among his people.

An Image is something you BOW down before when in the act of worship to either pagan gods or the true God.

The cheribums where in the holy of holies where no man was allowed and when the High Priest came in before it once a year he never bowed down before the cheribums.

Graven images are prohibited from God's House as they are by definition objects that receive bowing and prayers directed toward them.

More importantly God never commanded any kind of furniture or "instruments" or graven images to be used in the New Covenant House of God.

Le 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

De 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

 

[The Biblicist]

Sorry, but examples prove nothing but only that did what they did. I can find tons of examples that violate everyone of the ten commandments but what does that prove? Nothing but they violated the precepts.

However, as I said before the prohibition of bowing is found in the context of worship and worshp alone. This should be obvious since the second commandment is sandwiched between the command to have no other gods and the command not to bow down and worship them.

Therefore, those examples of bowing outside of the context of worship do not violate the command but those which do are simply examples of disobedience.

If you have a problem with that contextual prohibition take it with God not me.

I challenge our Catholic friends to find one single verse where the articles designed and built for the Tabernacle/Temple are ever called "images" or an "image."

I challenge our Catholic friends to find one single verse where anything ever identified as a "graven" IMAGE is ever approved by God anywhere in Scripture!

 

[Walter]

Sorry, but examples prove nothing but only that did what they did. I can find tons of examples that violate everyone of the ten commandments but what does that prove? Nothing but they violated the precepts.

However, as I said before the prohibition of bowing is found in the context of worship and worshp alone. This should be obvious since the second commandment is sandwiched between the command to have no other gods and the command not to bow down and worship them.

Therefore, those examples of bowing outside of the context of worship do not violate the command but those which do are simply examples of disobedience.

If you have a problem with that contextual prohibition take it with God not me.

So, you and Moriah would be in disagreement here. Moriah says that even bowing out of respect for another person, ie: in a royal court, a performer bowing to a pianist or teacher, the Japanese and Africans bowing in greeting, bowing out of respect for the pope, is all prohibited by God and repugnant to the word of God. Since these are not done as worship but out of respect, would you say they are ok?

 

[David Lamb]

Because it (saying that salvation is "by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone") is (oxymoronic). (snip)

I would suggest that it's no more oxymoronic than me saying, with regard to a journey by public transport, "I can travel to Island X by sea alone (because there is no public air service), by crossing the Atlantic Ocean alone (because that is where the island is), on Tuesdays alone (because the ship to Island X departs only on Tuesdays).

Similarly, saying that salvation is by grace alone means that we cannot be saved on any other basis than God's grace. Through faith alone means that to be saved, we must have faith; no one can say, "I don't have faith, but I'm saved because I recite Shakespeare's plays backwards every day (or whatevever! ); in Christ alone tells us that there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ - He, and He alone is the Saviour.

 

[WestminsterMan]

In regard to the Old covenant house of God there was no bowing directed to any article of furniture used in God's House or in personal or public acts of worship toward God.

Wrong! Go back and look at my original posting - one example shows a person bowing before the alter of God. Try again...

WM