Trinity -- Modalism -- ????

[billwald]

>The reason it is a problem is because the modalist view denies key aspects of Christ. If Christ was not incarnate, that is coming in the flesh, then his death loses all meaning as his blood becomes worthless.

It took Christians a century or so to reason backwards to the Crucifixion to justify their theology. There is nothing in the Tanakh that requires the Messiah to be God or to be without sin. It is a logical construct.

 

[The Biblicist]

>The reason it is a problem is because the modalist view denies key aspects of Christ. If Christ was not incarnate, that is coming in the flesh, then his death loses all meaning as his blood becomes worthless.

It took Christians a century or so to reason backwards to the Crucifixion to justify their theology. There is nothing in the Tanakh that requires the Messiah to be God or to be without sin. It is a logical construct.

Bill,

What is the "Tanakh" you are referring to? Is that a transliteration of a Greek term in some text? If so,, what text?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Modalism denies the Trinity

It could.

If a particular group proclamed that God existes as the Father, and the Holy Spirit, but NOT Jesus Christ...they would be denying the Trinity.

Or if they believed God is the Father and Jesus Christ, they would be denying the Trinity.

But the modalists in question clearly proclaim....

* The Father is God
* The Son is God.
* The Holy Spirit is God.

Lets count. That 1..2..and 3. The word Trinity simply means 3.

This group believes in 3 ways that God manifestes himself...

As the Father, as the Son, and as the Holy Spirit.

Most of Christianity sees it more clearly that that. But you CAN NOT say that they deny the triune nature of God. What you CAN say is that they are wrong in how the Triune nature of God functions.

And in my opinion, to condemn them as heritics for THAT...is nit-picking to the max.

To me, the LEGALISM that exists in most UPC churches is MUCH more problem then simply having a small misunderstanding regarding something like the trinity.

 

[preacher4truth]

What Jesus would they believe in?

I don't know, why don't you go ask "them" as to whom "they've" believed in? Maybe the "Gospel" is the Death, burial and resurrection of Christ AND belief in the Trinity?

Can you kindly show where trinitarianism is part of the Gospel?

Salvation is via Christ, and one true Gospel, that is, in His death burial and resurrection, not whether one believes in ones trinitarian system of belief.

I won't add to the Gospel anything other than that He died, was buried, and rose from the dead. If you feel the need to argue which "He" it is that did these things, go for it, as only One did.

Belief in trinitariansim isn't the Gospel, only belief in the Gospel saves, and there is only One Jesus who accomplished this.

If you feel the need to insert another Jesus here, and question that, then go for it, but the other Jesus you insert does not supplant the Christ of the Gospel simply because He doesn't fit into your trinitarian belief system. To do so is to add to the Gospel.

One who trusts in the Christ of the Gospel alone doesn't need to trust also in...and....and and...and and..and and... The person only needs to trust in Christ alone and in His Gospel. Nothing more.

If you've added trinitarianism to this, then that is another Gospel. One can argue to inifnitum "which Jesus" which is ridiculous. There is only One who rose from the dead. He doesn't ask us what we believe about "trinitarianism" as an "entry" exam.

Does one need to believe the Gospel and trinitarianism? Or, does one only need to believe in the Gospel to be saved, or only in the Christ who accomplished this? There is only one name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. Or, does one also have to ascribe to other theological understandings you hold to in addition to this, then they're saved, if they pass all the theological tests? I'll guarantee you that I would have never passed a theological test the day I got saved, but if one asked how I got saved then, my answer would have been only through Christ alone, and only through the Gospel.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Annsni...

Yes, so just how do we get three masks on one person in this passage in Matthew 3:

And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Thats one of the best articulations..if not the best..of the triune nature of God in all of the scriptures.

I am in complete agreement with the normal understanding of the Trinity.

Its the UPC that needs some fine tuning in thier understanding.

 

[The Biblicist]

It could.

If a particular group proclamed that God existes as the Father, and the Holy Spirit, but NOT Jesus Christ...they would be denying the Trinity.

Or if they believed God is the Father and Jesus Christ, they would be denying the Trinity.

But the modalists in question clearly proclaim....

* The Father is God
* The Son is God.
* The Holy Spirit is God.

Lets count. That 1..2..and 3. The word Trinity simply means 3.

This group believes in 3 ways that God manifestes himself...

As the Father, as the Son, and as the Holy Spirit.

Most of Christianity sees it more clearly that that. But you CAN NOT say that they deny the triune nature of God. What you CAN say is that they are wrong in how the Triune nature of God functions.

And in my opinion, to condemn them as heritics for THAT...is nit-picking to the max.

To me, the LEGALISM that exists in most UPC churches is MUCH more problem then simply having a small misunderstanding regarding something like the trinity.

First, you do not understand their doctrine nor how they explain it. They deny that the Father and the Spirit are co-eternal with the Son.

When God manifests himself as the Son there is no Father or Holy Spirit existing. When God manifests Himself as the Spirit there is no Father existing. They believe that Jesus Christ alone is God and the Father and Spirit are merely titles and manifest expressions of Jesus Christ.

They are no different in substance than Jehovah's Witnesses or Moslems in their view of God.

They neither know the true God or Jesus Christ as they preach "ANOTHER JESUS" (2 Cor. 11:4) and "ANOTHER SPIRIT" (2 Cor. 11:4) and thus "ANOTHER GOSPEL" (2 Cor. 11:4).

 

[Alive in Christ]

The biblicist...

You posted.....

First, you do not understand their doctrine nor how they explain it. They deny that the Father and the Spirit are co-eternal with the Son.

When God manifests himself as the Son there is no Father or Holy Spirit existing. When God manifests Himself as the Spirit there is no Father existing. They believe that Jesus Christ alone is God and the Father and Spirit are merely titles and manifest expressions of Jesus Christ.

They are no different in substance than Jehovah's Witnesses or Moslems in their view of God.

Well, I dont see that in their official "What we believe"statement, from their website.....

About God

There is one God, who has revealed Himself as our Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and as the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is God manifested in flesh. He is both God and man. (See Deuteronomy 6:4; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 2:9; I Timothy 3:16.)

About Sin and Salvation

Everyone has sinned and needs salvation. Salvation comes by grace through faith based on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. (See Romans 3:23-25; 6:23; Ephesians 2:8-9.)

About the Gospel

The saving gospel is the good news that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again. We obey the gospel (II Thessalonians 1:8; I Peter 4:17) by repentance (death to sin), water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (burial), and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (resurrection). (See I Corinthians 15:1-4; Acts 2:4, 37-39; Romans 6:3-4.)

About Christian Living

As Christians we are to love God and others. We should live a holy life inwardly and outwardly, and worship God joyfully. The supernatural gifts of the Spirit, including healing, are for the church today. (See Mark 12:28-31; II Corinthians 7:1; Hebrews 12:14; I Corinthians 12:8-10.)

About the Future

Jesus Christ is coming again to catch away His church. In the end will be the final resurrection and the final judgment. The righteous will inherit eternal life, and the unrighteous eternal death. (See I Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 20:11-15.)

URL="http://www.upci.org/about-us/beliefs"]http://www.upci.org/about-us/beliefs[/URL]

 

[The Biblicist]

The biblicist...



Well, I dont see that in their official "What we believe"statement, from their website.....

First, Christian cults use the same terms and terminology we use but define it differently. If you don't ask them to define their terms you have no idea what they really mean.

Have you talked to any of them extensively and asked them to explain what they mean by those words?

Yes, I have! I have had many extensive discussions with them. They do not believe in the God of the Bible. They do not believe that either the Father or Spirit CO-EXIST in fellowship with the Son any more than you coexist with and fellowship with yourself as father, son and husband.

They believe that God is Jesus Christ and that the Father and the Spirit are merely alternative manifestations of Jesus Christ but they do not CO-exist in personal fellowship with each other as distinct cognitive persona's.

 

[Alive in Christ]

BTW...

There is a link at the bottom of my post, but for some reason it wouldnt "turn on".

You will have to paste it into your browser.

 

[The Biblicist]

BTW...

There is a link at the bottom of my post, but for some reason it wouldnt "turn on".

You will have to paste it into your browser.

Tried, but didn't work

 

[Alive in Christ]

Grrr

Let me try again...

tick...tock...tick...tock...

This one works!


http://www.upci.org/about-us/beliefs

 

[Alive in Christ]

Here is another articulation, from another doctrinal page, that branches off of the 1st introductory doctrinal page...

God is absolutely and indivisibly one (Deuteronomy 6:4; Galatians 3:20). In Jesus dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). He is the self-revelation of the one God, the incarnation of the full, undivided Godhead (John 20:28; I Timothy 3:16).

God has revealed Himself as Father (in parental relationship to humanity), in the Son (in human flesh), and as the Holy Spirit (in spiritual action). (See Deuteronomy 32:6 and Isaiah 63:16; Luke 1:35 and Galatians 4:4; Genesis 1:2 and Acts 1:8.) The one God existed as Father, Word, and Spirit before His incarnation as Jesus Christ, the Son of God; and while Jesus walked on earth as God Himself incarnate, the Spirit of God continued to be omnipresent. However, the Bible does not teach that there are three distinct centers of consciousness in the Godhead or that Jesus is one of three divine persons.

Jesus is true God and true man as one divine-human person. We can distinguish these two aspects of Christ’s identity, but we cannot separate them. The Incarnation joined the fullness of deity to complete humanity.

Jesus possessed all elements of authentic humanity as originally created by God, without sin. Thus we can speak of Jesus as human in body, soul, spirit, mind, and will. (See Matthew 26:38; Luke 2:40; 22:42; 23:46; Philippians 2:5.) According to the flesh, Jesus was the biological descendant of Adam and Eve, Abraham, David, and Mary. (See Genesis 3:15; Romans 1:3; Galatians 3:16; Hebrews 2:14-17; 5:7-8.) We should not speak of two spirits in Jesus, however, but of one Spirit in which deity and humanity are joined.

Christ’s humanity means that everything we humans can say of ourselves, we can say of Jesus in His earthly life, except for sin. In every way that we relate to God, Jesus related to God, except that He did not need to repent or be born again. Thus, when Jesus prayed, submitted His will to the Father, and spoke about God, He simply acted in accordance with His genuine humanity.

As Jehovah manifested in the flesh, Jesus is the only Savior (Isaiah 45:21-23; Matthew 1:21-23). Thus, Jesus is the only name given for our salvation (Acts 4:12). The Father was revealed to the world in the name of Jesus, the Son was given the name of Jesus at birth, and the Holy Spirit comes to believers in the name of Jesus. (See Matthew 1:21; John 5:43; 14:26; 17:6.) Thus, the apostles correctly fulfilled Christ’s command in Matthew 28:19 to baptize “in the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” by baptizing all converts with the invocation of the name of Jesus.

Honestly, I'm finding almost NOTHING as ((horendously)) blasphemous as the critics are trying to convince is there.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is another articulation, from another doctrinal page, that branches off of the 1st introductory doctrinal page...



Honestly, I'm finding almost NOTHING as ((horendously)) blasphemous as the critics are trying to convince is there.

You do not see error here

However, the Bible does not teach that there are three distinct centers of consciousness in the Godhead or that Jesus is one of three divine persons[/QUOTE]

If anyone does not see error here....they do not have the Son, or the Father.

A denial of the trinity is a denial of God Himself.

 

[convicted1]

The actor that has three masks, can only wear one mask at a time. That is what this theory teaches. At one time he is wearing the mask of the Father. At another time he is wearing the mask of the Son and at another time he is wearing the mask of the Holy Spirit.

When he ceases wearing a certain mask, for example the Spirit, the Spirit ceases to exist because that mask has been laid aside.

God is one being but eternally manifested in three persona's that are co-equal and co-eternal. God does not put on one mask at one time and then another mask at another time.

Furthermore, these persona's are not simply "masks" but three distinct conscious personalities that fellowship with each other.

Sebbellianism would teach that one man can be a father, a son and a husband all in one person. However, each is only true to a certain audiance. To his wife he is a husband but not her son or father. To his children he is a father but not their son and husband, etc. God is all three all the time to all His creation.

This is one very articulated post here, Brother!!!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[preacher4truth]

The point is this, people get saved via the Gospel. What they understand about trinitarianism doesn't matter at the point of salvation. Did we all have our theology down pat at the foot of the cross? Could we verbalize a precise and accurate doctrine of the trinity?

Those newly saved probably haven't heard about that doctrine, all they know is they trusted Christ to save them.

One can affirm that Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God, eternal, not a creature, Savior, Lord, and the only way of salvation, that He saved them, and have a skewed understanding of the trinity. Does that mean this person isn't saved because they don't have a precise understanding of the trinity?

 

[annsni]

Here is another articulation, from another doctrinal page, that branches off of the 1st introductory doctrinal page...



Honestly, I'm finding almost NOTHING as ((horendously)) blasphemous as the critics are trying to convince is there.

He says that the Father is Jesus - that doesn't concern you?

 

[The Biblicist]

Here is another articulation, from another doctrinal page, that branches off of the 1st introductory doctrinal page...



Honestly, I'm finding almost NOTHING as ((horendously)) blasphemous as the critics are trying to convince is there.

They are denying the God of the Bible equally as the Jehovah's Witnesses and Moslem's deny the God of the Bible.

They deny there are three centres of self-consciousness. Hence, there is no internal relationship or fellowship between three Divine persona's. Hence, the Father and Spirit do not have co-conscious existence.

This is a fancy way of saying God is a schizophrenic - muli-personality like a Dr. Jeckal and Mr. Hyde or like you introducing yourself as "Me, Myself and I"

This is not the God of the Bible - they preach "another Jesus" and "another Spirit" and "another gospel."

You are a deceived sucker if you think their god is any more god than the Arian or Moselm god.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

A denial of the trinity is a denial of God Himself.

They dont deny the concept of the trinity. They have a different understanding of it then we do.

 

[Alive in Christ]

The point is this, people get saved via the Gospel. What they understand about trinitarianism doesn't matter at the point of salvation. Did we all have our theology down pat at the foot of the cross? Could we verbalize a precise and accurate doctrine of the trinity?

Those newly saved probably haven't heard about that doctrine, all they know is they trusted Christ to save them.

One can affirm that Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God, eternal, not a creature, Savior, Lord, and the only way of salvation, that He saved them, and have a skewed understanding of the trinity. Does that mean this person isn't saved because they don't have a precise understanding of the trinity?

Good post! :thumbs: I agree.

 

[Alive in Christ]

He says that the Father is Jesus - that doesn't concern you?

They have a different view of the trinity than I do, no doubt.

But the DO NOT deny the concept of the trinity