Righteousness without the Law is Revealed !

[savedbymercy]

the bib

I have not been stating my position at all. I have just been showing the absurdity of your position.

My position is the Word of God. It states that by the obedience of ONE shall many be made Righteous. Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Thats the Apostle's doctrine ! You say this is not True, but Christ's obedience merely made a provision to become righteous ! Thats contrary to sound doctrine !

 

[The Biblicist]

bib



I know that, but we are discussing Rom 5:10 which you deny. You stated, which is a lie, that those who Christ died for are not reconciled to God by the Death of Christ, while they are enemies ! You said it is not an actual reconciliation but merely a provision. Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Why do you deny the Truth ?

No, I do not deny that the provision made by Christ reconciled the elect to God objectively. I simply insist that it did not reconcile the elect to God subjectively. Instead, it had to be applied in time and space to the individual personal elect. I believe both without contradiction. I believe the same is true in all other aspects of salvation that are inclusively stated "according to God's purpose"! You obviously do not! You deny we came into this world subjectively condemned under sin but were never under condemnation at any time. You believe this because you only believe in objective justification whereas I believe in both objective and subjective justification without contradiction.

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

No, I do not deny that the provision made by Christ reconciled the elect to God objectively.

Thats what I stated, it actually reconciled them objectively, and it will also reconcile them subjectively, because , the promise to them is that they SHALL be saved [subjectively] by His Life. That means Converted !

Now if the Elect were reconciled to God objectively, while they were unregenerate, how could they be under God's Wrath and Condemnation ?

Jn 3:18

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

bib


Now if the Elect were reconciled to God objectively, while they were unregenerate, how could they be under God's Wrath and Condemnation ?

Jn 3:18

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You answer your own objection! They are not reconciled subjectively and therefore they are subjectively under God's wrath and condemnation!

They are reconciled objectively and therefore they are not objectively under God's wrath and condemnation.

There is no contradiction UNLESS you assert one and deny the other. You assert objective justification and thus assert they were not under God's Wrath and condemnation according to OBJECTIVE justification but you deny SUBJECTIVE justification and therefore deny they were SUBJECTIVELY under God's wrath and condemnation. Hence, you embrace HALF the truth instead of the WHOLE truth - there is no contradiction between BOTH. Neither is of works but both are of grace!

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

You answer your own objection! They are not reconciled subjectively and therefore they are subjectively under God's wrath and condemnation!

How can they be ? They are objectively reconciled to God. They are subjectvely sinners, but nevertheless God is at peace with them because His Wrath has been propitiated by the death of His Son ! Do you deny that Christ's Death alone propitiated God's Wrath for the sins He died for ?

 

[The Biblicist]

bib



How can they be ? They are objectively reconciled to God. They are subjectvely sinners, but nevertheless God is at peace with them because His Wrath has been propitiated by the death of His Son ! Do you deny that Christ's Death alone propitiated God's Wrath for the sins He died for ?

By your very explanation and reasoning you are confusing the objective with the subjective. You are using one to deny the other. You are mixing apples with oranges.

Let me say what you said but consistent with objective and subjective reconciliation/justification.

"They are objectively reconciled/justified to God. They are subjectively sinners, but nevertheless God is OBJECTIVELY at peace with them becuase his Wrath OBJECTIVELY has been propitiatied by the death of His Son! Do you deny Christ's death alone OBJECTIVELY propitiated God's Wrath for the sins He OBJECTIVELY died for?"

How you say it my answer is "I don't agree with your view" but when I make your words consistent then I agree with you.

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

By your very explanation and reasoning you are confusing the objective with the subjective.

No I am not. You are denying however that Christ's Death propitiated God's Wrath, and His Death alone ! That is Blasphemy, you need to clarify your position sir. Now The Bible teaches that Two things Christ's death done, it objectively reconciled the elect to God, and it appeased God's Wrath for sin, do you deny this ?

 

[The Biblicist]

bib



No I am not. You are denying however that Christ's Death propitiated God's Wrath, and His Death alone ! That is Blasphemy, you need to clarify your position sir. Now The Bible teaches that Two things Christ's death done, it objectively reconciled the elect to God, and it appeased God's Wrath for sin, do you deny this ?

You need to read what I wrote. I asserted that I believed the OBJECTIVE provision of Christ reconciled/justified/propitiated the elect to God.

What you do not grasp is that what is OBJECTIVELY obtained must be SUBJECTIVELY applied or it means nothing!

For example, according to God's eternal purpose we have already been glorified but if God never created man, never sent Christ to the cross, never brought the elect to physical life there would be no ACTUAL glorification or salvation of the elect.

You want to make the OBJECTIVE provision the REALITY when there is no REALITY until it is SUBJECTIVELY applied in time and space. No one is phyically born, redeemed, regenerated, justified, sanctified, glorified until it occurs in time and space. It is all THEORETICALLY THEOLOGICALLY CORRECT but theoretical only without actual subjective application. Thus those who have been "reconciled" by Christ are called upon to "be reconciled." According to your one sided theoretical theology you could not call upon the elect to "be reconciled" since you deny that very thing but instead claim they already have been reconciled. It is not one or the other but BOTH or else the truth is perverted and you sir are perverting the truth by acceping only ONE HALF of the truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

You need to read what I wrote. I asserted that I believed the OBJECTIVE provision of Christ reconciled/justified/propitiated the elect to God.

What you do not grasp is that what is OBJECTIVELY obtained must be SUBJECTIVELY applied or it means nothing!

For example, according to God's eternal purpose we have already been glorified but if God never created man, never sent Christ to the cross, never brought the elect to physical life there would be no ACTUAL glorification or salvation of the elect.

You want to make the OBJECTIVE provision the REALITY when there is no REALITY until it is SUBJECTIVELY applied in time and space. No one is phyically born, redeemed, regenerated, justified, sanctified, glorified until it occurs in time and space. It is all THEORETICALLY THEOLOGICALLY CORRECT but theoretical only without actual subjective application. Thus those who have been "reconciled" by Christ are called upon to "be reconciled." According to your one sided theoretical theology you could not call upon the elect to "be reconciled" since you deny that very thing but instead claim they already have been reconciled. It is not one or the other but BOTH or else the truth is perverted and you sir are perverting the truth by acceping only ONE HALF of the truth.

The elect are in need of SUBJECTIVE reconciliation because they are SUBJECTIVELY under condemnation. They are subjected to the TEMPORAL wrath of God through the TEMPORAL penalties of sin - spiritual death, sickness, war, hate, envy right up to physical death. Look at Romans 1:23-32 exposition of the "wrath of God revealed from heaven" (Rom. 1:18) and you will see it is revealed from heaven through consequences of SIN in a downward digression. The elect are born with a sinful nature and children of wrath even as others, under the condemnation of the sin nature and of their sins and it is obvious - just look at their unregenated lives!!!!

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

You need to read what I wrote. I asserted that I believed the OBJECTIVE provision of Christ reconciled/justified/propitiated the elect to God.

All what you asserted means nothing if you turn around and say that the Elect are condemned, at any time ! They can never be condemned, because Christ was condemned in their stead..

 

[The Biblicist]

bib



All what you asserted means nothing if you turn around and say that the Elect are condemned, at any time ! They can never be condemned, because Christ was condemned in their stead..

"We were by nature children of WRATH even as others."

 

[savedbymercy]

"We were by nature children of WRATH even as others."

Yes the Elect are sinners by nature even as others, and deserve wrath, However they are reconciled to God while being Children of wrath as others, while the others are not !

 

[The Biblicist]

Yes the Elect are sinners by nature even as others, and deserve wrath, However they are reconciled to God while being Children of wrath as others, while the others are not !

you got to be joking? Paul said they "were children of wrath" previous to regeneration. Paul said they were "enemies" previous to regeneration and the very meaning of "enemy" is one not reconciled but still at war!

This is the kind of nonsense when you pit scriptures that teach objective reconciliation against scriptures that teach subjective condemnation.

The truth is that those who are objectively reconciled are no longer enemies and no longer objectively under wrath and condemnation. However, prior to their regeneration they were subjectively under wrath and condemnation and were not subjectively removed from that condition until they were subjectively regenerated/justified.

There is no such thing as "reconciled" unless both parties are at peace with each other. As long as one party is at war or regarded and called an "enemy" there is no such thing as reconciliation unless you view it objectively rather than subjectively. However, you don't and so you have a oxmoronic mess that pits scripture against scripture.

 

[savedbymercy]

"We were by nature children of WRATH even as others."

see post 72

 

[savedbymercy]

bib

There is no such thing as "reconciled" unless both parties are at peace with each other.

Thats according to your philosophy, but The Elect, while they were being enemies, unregenerated, they had been reconciled to God by the death of His Son Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son

You do not believe the Truth.

 

[savedbymercy]

bib contradicts scripture

The truth is that those who are objectively reconciled are no longer enemies

Paul states that while believers were enemies, they had been reconciled to God by the death of His Son !

Rom 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So a clear denial and contradiction of Truth !

 

[savedbymercy]

Self Salvation or Justification !

If the act of ones believing on Christ is our actual Justification or Salvation, then we save ourselves, we make ourselves Justified before God by what we do, we become our own saviour !

 

[savedbymercy]

Neonomianism !



Most in the religious world believe a false gospel, a very deceptive false gospel which is a derived from what is called Neonomianism !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonomianism

What basically is meant is the the Gospel is but a much milder law that men must adhere to in order of being saved or Justified before God; this is just as evil as teaching to be Justified by the Law Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin !

The word deeds here is the same word ergon for work or works, and the word law nomos means:

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

a) of any law whatsoever

1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God

a) by the observance of which is approved of God

2) a precept or injunction

3) the rule of action prescribed by reason

Now how many really and sincerely believe that if they obey the command to believe on Jesus Christ that it produces them into a state of approval of God ? 99.99 % of professing Christianity believes this or that if they repent it brings them into this state of approval before God. In other words God now Judges them favorably because of what they did !

And the scripture says, by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified before God. Flesh here merely means anyone born of the flesh as Jesus indicates here Jn 3:6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Flesh is anyone who has not been born again of the Spirit. And so these neonomians, most deny New Birth before Faith, they are therefore advocating Justification before God by the deeds of the flesh ! To be honest with you, all who believe this are deceived and reject Salvation by Grace through Faith, not of works, lest any man should boast !