Calvinism and Open Theism are strange bedfellows?

The source of all our views is the finite mind of man.

All my positions are fully supported by all scripture, whereas Calvinism is shown to be false doctrine by scripture after scripture. For example, Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated false by Matthew 13:1-30. Unconditional Election is shown to be false by James 2:5. Limited atonement as defined by Calvinism is demonstrated to be false by 1 John 2:2. And Irresistible Grace is shown to be false by Matthew 23:13.

Closed Theism holds the view that the future is totally fixed and therefore God is the author of sin.
Open Theism holds the view that the future is partly not fixed, and that mankind makes choices that change the future to the decree allowed by God, thus God is not the author of sin.

Most Calvinists and all Arminians are Open Theists to a limited decree.

 

God knows ALL things exhaustive fashion, as some events he ordained/caused, others allowed, but IF he did not know exactly the future, than could NOT be God!

 

You keep making either ignorant or intentionally misleading statements concerning this topic!

calvinists do NOT see God as author of sin, and just because God knows everything, does NOT make Him the One doing them, as he has both determined/permissive will!

Nrthodox cal/Arm alike would be in the Open theism camp, as that would mean believe in a God not of the Bible!

 

Reply to Skandelon,

First, I agree we should not draw conclusions about God that go beyond what scripture reveals specifically.

Such as if God knows the future exhaustively, then the future is predestined and God is the author of sin, or

Define Omniscience as God knowing the future exhaustively.

The problem with saying everything is predestined is that man could not be responsible for his actions.

We know what the Bible says, and the answer to this paradox is found in scripture. Things happen by chance so everything is not predestined.

Is it true He does not reveal Himself as unaware of the future decisions men? What about Abraham and "now I know."

It is true that God brings calamity, and those adversely affected would see that action as evil, but as you noted, from His perspective, the actions were with pure motives, and therefore godly and not evil in His eyes.

 

You keep making either ignorant or intentionally misleading statements concerning this topic! DaChaser1 view is not that God knows the future to a large extend, but that was his statement. Therefore he yet again is charging me with his behavior. Strange bedfellows these Calvinists.

 

Calvinists, hyper-Calvinists, do see God as the author of sin. Calvinists say God predestines everything which makes His the author of sin. All this secondary causes is shuck and jive. If I fire a gun, and the bullet's path is predestined to hit my foot, then I am responsible for hurting my foot and it is absurd to say, no the bullet is responsible and I am not the author of the pain. Saying God only allowed the bullet to fly its predestined path, and therefore He is not responsible for the predestined actions of secondary causes is absurd.

OTOH, if everything is not predestined, then Open Theism to a limited degree is scriptural.

 

Van, what of VERY precise prophecies of God concerning Christ?


Isaiah 62:11 (NIV) The LORD has made proclamation to the ends of the earth: "Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your Savior comes! See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.'"

Zechariah 9:9 (NIV) Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Psalms 118:26 (NIV) Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD. From the house of the LORD we bless you.

Matthew 21:1-9 (NIV) As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, "Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3 If anyone says anything to you, tell him that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away." ... 9 The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Hosanna in the highest!"​

Mark 11:2-11 (NIV) 2 saying to them, "Go to the village ahead of you, and just as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 3 If anyone asks you, 'Why are you doing this?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it and will send it back here shortly.'" ... 9 Those who went ahead and those who followed shouted, "Hosanna! " "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" 10 "Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David!" "Hosanna in the highest!" 11 Jesus entered Jerusalem and went to the temple. He looked around at everything, but since it was already late, he went out to Bethany with the Twelve.​

John 12:12-14 (NIV) The next day the great crowd that had come for the Feast heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. 13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna! " "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" 14 Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written.​

Zechariah 11:12-13 (NIV) I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.

Matthew 26:15 (NIV) and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.​

Matthew 27:3-7 (NIV) When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. 4 "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood." "What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility." 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. ​

Isaiah 50:6 (NIV) I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

Matthew 26:67 (NIV) Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him​

Matthew 27:30 (NIV) They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again.​

Psalm 22:8 (NIV) 8 "He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him."

Matthew 26:67-68 (NIV) Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68 and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"​

Matthew 27:31 (NIV) After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.​

Matthew 27:39-44 (NIV) Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads 40 and saying, "You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!" 41 In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42 "He saved others," they said, "but he can't save himself! He's the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'" ​

Zechariah 12:10 (NIV) "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Psalms 22:16 (NIV) Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.

Luke 24:39 (NIV) Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."​

John 19:34-37 (NIV) Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37 and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."​

Psalms 69:21 (NIV) They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.

Matthew 27:34 (NIV) There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it.​

John 19:29 (NIV) A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips.​

Exodus 12:46 (NIV) "It must be eaten inside one house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones.

Numbers 9:12 (NIV) They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow all the regulations.

Psalms 34:20 (NIV) he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.

John 19:31-37 (NIV) Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. INDENT]

Psalms 22:1 (NIV) My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?

Psalms 31:5 (NIV) Into your hands I commit my spirit; redeem me, O LORD, the God of truth.

Matthew 27:46 (NIV) About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"​

Mark 15:34 (NIV) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"​

Luke 23:46 (NIV) Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.​

Isaiah 53:9 (NIV) He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Matthew 27:57-60 (NIV) As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58 Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59 Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.​

Isaiah 11:10 (NIV) In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.

Isaiah 42:1-2 (NIV) "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations.

Isaiah 49:1 (NIV) Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name.

Isaiah 49:12 (NIV) See, they will come from afar-- some from the north, some from the west, some from the region of Aswan."

Romans 9:30 (NIV) What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;​

Romans 10:20 (NIV) And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."​

Romans 11:11 (NIV) Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.​

Romans 15:10 (NIV) Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."​

 

Good grief, Glfredrick, everything God says will occur, He makes happen.
Your whole post is misdirection, attacking a strawman. If God predestines everything, then God is the author of sin. If God does not predestine everything, then Open Theism to a limited degree is scriptural.

Calvinism says everything is predestined yet God is not the author of sin. Paradox #1.

Arminianism says everything is foreknown, yet everything is not predestined by the fact God's perfect foreknowledge cannot be broken.
Paradox #2.

Neither position is biblical is the only avenue out of this slough of despair.
Care to address the actual topic?

 

Okay, then SINCE YOU INSIST that there is another answer...

HERE IS YOUR CHANCE to spell out the precise means by which God can BOTH know all things, not limited to time, and at the same time ALLOW FREE WILL IN HUMANS.

I will await your response.

And, this is put up or shut up time for you in my book.

 

Define free will if you would not mind. There is a chance that definition of terms are getting in the way of a reasonable discussion.

 

Hi Skandelon, I will try again. I did not define Omniscience, I said defining it your way goes beyond specific support in scripture. I did not address God remembering no more forever, which you claim means God does remember forever. No, you said "he doesn't reveal himself as unaware of the future decision of men" and I responded with a question about Abraham and God saying "now I know."

 

Reply to Deflection

Did we get an argument in favor of accepting paradox #1? Did we get an argument in favor of accepting paradox #2.?

You are unable to spell out the precise means by which we can avoid both of these unbiblical paradoxes. So you try to say that I am unable to lay out a very specific alternate view and support it with what the Bible actually says. Fiddlesticks.

1. Is everything predestined? No!!!!!!!! So when we choose to sin we are responsible for those actions and God's perfect justice will punish us, if we do not obtain mercy. But if our choice was predestined, then God would be the author of sin.
See the story of the Good Samaritan which a man is traveling by chance.

2. Does God reveal He is unaware of some of our decisions? Yes!!!!!!!! God tested Abraham to find our if Abraham would sacrifice his son.

So the avenue out is clearly laid out in scripture. But rather than change doctrine to match scripture, many would rather nullify scripture to hold on to man-made doctrine. Which puts us in the slough of despair.

 

Open Theism is heretical everyday.It is a vile attack upon the revealed attributes of God.

Wrong theology in other areas leads to you spiraling down outside of the protection of scripture...like a fighter pilot in the ww2 movies...you need to bail out of these errors and novelties...and parachute out into the safety of the historic faith.

 

I am asking you to CLEARLY LAY OUT THAT AVENUE. So far, all you have done is suggest a couple of issues that are difficult to resolve, then from that allude to the fact that there is a solution.

TELL US WHAT IS THE SOLUTION THAT YOU HAVE FIGURED OUT!

You keep double talking as if you actually know the answer, but the answer is never forthcoming.

Well, here is your chance!

 

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Do not hold your "proverbial breath" waiting for that answer:thumbsup:

 

I won't... I've engaged Van a number of times on the board and he always professes to have this "answer" that is evident from Scripture, but he never gets around to actually laying it out without just dumping into the thread another set of problems -- but no actual answer.

And, we are all "attacking" him just for asking that he actually lays out what he says is so evident.

 

reply to Skandelon,

I took one scripture, which is true and cannot be broken, to refute one claim of yours. Now you say this does not offset "all the other didactic texts. But you did not reference any of them. Thus a generalization without specific support in scripture.

Yes, if we are willing to accept nonsense, we can stick with the advocacy of mystery to explain a logical impossibility. But since scripture answers the mystery, there is no need to accept nonsense. You argument is like advocating that God put invisible pink elephants in orbit around Mars. You cannot prove from scripture that he did not, and God is certainly able to do whatever He chooses to do. But if we stick with what scripture actually says, we can agree on the truth.

Lets just take one more example. In the book of Jonah, God tells Jonah to proclaim "in forty days Nineveh will be overturned." Now according to you God knew He would not overturn Nineveh, He was just telling them something He was able to do. But Satan is the father of lies, so to ascribe this behavior to God demeans God.

I could go on with other didactic texts which teach your view is mistaken. OTOH, I have addressed every single passage cited to support your view. Now of course, I am not allowed to repeat those arguments because they have been ruled "unorthodox." However, I do not believe we can find in the doctrinal statements of Baptists that everything is predestined, and therefore the orthodox view is limited open theism.