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By faith alone or by faith and acting?

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Luke2427

Active Member
Arminians do not believe in sola fide. I think they give lip service to it and may even think they believe in it, but if the last thread along these lines is any indication, it is apparent that they are at their core not sola fide.

What was said numerous times was that you must believe AND ACT UPON THAT FAITH.

Salvation is therefore not by grace alone through faith alone but through faith plus some ACT that you perform once you have faith.

Support for that line of reasoning came in the form of various proof texts like "Faith without works is dead."

But don't we all really know that what James is saying is that TRUE FAITH will manifest itself in the performance of godly works?

Who REALLY thinks that James meant by that that salvation comes once you believe AND start performing works?

Peter said, "Believe AND be baptized... and you shall be saved." But Peter goes on to clarify what he meant by saying, "Whoever does not believe will be damned."

So OBVIOUSLY Peter was saying that it is FAITH that saves us from damnation- not faith AND baptism.

Only the Calvinist can cling to sola fide (I know some Calvinists have not, but only the Calvinist really can). Because only the Calvinist recognizes that faith is something through which we are ACTUALLY saved- not potentially saved. And only the Calvinist understands that faith is not a choice but a condition.

Question for Skandelon, Webdog, Winman, Quantum, and the other non-cals:
What ACT along side of faith must we perform to be saved?

In other words, if I understand you correctly, you say one must ACT upon his faith to be saved. Faith alone is not enough to save because, as you say, "the devils believe" and are not saved.

So what work or ACT upon our faith (faith that does not save us by itself) must we perform?
 
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convicted1

Guest
Luke2427 said:
Arminians do not believe in sola fide. I think they give lip service to it and may even think they believe in it, but if the last thread along these lines is any indication, it is apparent that they are at their core not sola fide.

What was said numerous times was that you must believe AND ACT UPON THAT FAITH.

Salvation is therefore not by grace alone through faith alone but through faith plus some ACT that you perform once you have faith.

Support for that line of reasoning came in the form of various proof texts like "Faith without works is dead."

But don't we all really know that what James is saying is that TRUE FAITH will manifest itself in the performance of godly works?

Who REALLY thinks that James meant by that that salvation comes once you believe AND start performing works?

Peter said, "Believe AND be baptized... and you shall be saved." But Peter goes on to clarify what he meant by saying, "Whoever does not believe will be damned."

So OBVIOUSLY Peter was saying that it is FAITH that saves us from damnation- not faith AND baptism.

Only the Calvinist can cling to sola fide (I know some Calvinists have not, but only the Calvinist really can). Because only the Calvinist recognizes that faith is something through which we are ACTUALLY saved- not potentially saved. And only the Calvinist understands that faith is not a choice but a condition.

Question for Skandelon, Webdog, Winman, Quantum, and the other non-cals:
What ACT along side of faith must we perform to be saved?

In other words, if I understand you correctly, you say one must ACT upon his faith to be saved. Faith alone is not enough to save because, as you say, "the devils believe" and are not saved.

So what work or ACT upon our faith (faith that does not save us by itself) must we perform?
Click to expand...


Now you're telling us that our mommy is stupid, fat. ;azy and stanks, and here's why. These types of threads need to go.
 
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Don

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Luke, I have no idea what argument you're attempting to set up here. I can't find where any of the people you've identified have espoused faith plus works. I see where some are using the rebuttal of the Dort synod to present a position about what arminians believe, instead of simply using Arminius' writings (available at ccel.org) to actually show what Arminius believed and wrote about. It's much easier to argue against someone else's position when you set up their position for them, instead of actually using their own writings.

As I have declared myself in the past, I am an arminian with some calvinistic leanings. To me, the end of the argument for this alleged "faith plus works" position is simply Ephesians 2:8-10. We are saved by grace, through faith, unto good works. We can work at making it more complicated if anyone desires to do so; but simplicity works for me, because I'm about as simple (minded) as they come.
 
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Winman

Active Member
Faith precedes action, action is simply evidence of the faith that was present beforehand.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul here says that any man who calls on Jesus to forgive their sins will be saved. Then he asks "how" can a man call on him in whom they have not believed?

If you do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins and rose from the dead, you are not going to call on him. It is really that simple. The calling on Jesus is simply an evidence of the faith a person already had.

I have heard the analogy of someone running into a crowded theater and shouting, Fire!, fire!. You can easily tell who believes, because they will immediately jump up and head for an exit. Those who do not believe will remain in their seats.
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
Don said:
Luke, I have no idea what argument you're attempting to set up here. I can't find where any of the people you've identified have espoused faith plus works. I see where some are using the rebuttal of the Dort synod to present a position about what arminians believe, instead of simply using Arminius' writings (available at ccel.org) to actually show what Arminius believed and wrote about. It's much easier to argue against someone else's position when you set up their position for them, instead of actually using their own writings.

As I have declared myself in the past, I am an arminian with some calvinistic leanings. To me, the end of the argument for this alleged "faith plus works" position is simply Ephesians 2:8-10. We are saved by grace, through faith, unto good works. We can work at making it more complicated if anyone desires to do so; but simplicity works for me, because I'm about as simple (minded) as they come.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about the thread to which you are referring.

You can easily find the references I am talking about in the thread entitled "By Faith or by Choice"
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
Winman said:
Faith precedes action, action is simply evidence of the faith that was present beforehand.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul here says that any man who calls on Jesus to forgive their sins will be saved. Then he asks "how" can a man call on him in whom they have not believed?

If you do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins and rose from the dead, you are not going to call on him. It is really that simple. The calling on Jesus is simply an evidence of the faith a person already had.

I have heard the analogy of someone running into a crowded theater and shouting, Fire!, fire!. You can easily tell who believes, because they will immediately jump up and head for an exit. Those who do not believe will remain in their seats.
Click to expand...

I could not agree more.
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
Don said:
Luke, I have no idea what argument you're attempting to set up here. I can't find where any of the people you've identified have espoused faith plus works. I see where some are using the rebuttal of the Dort synod to present a position about what arminians believe, instead of simply using Arminius' writings (available at ccel.org) to actually show what Arminius believed and wrote about. It's much easier to argue against someone else's position when you set up their position for them, instead of actually using their own writings.

As I have declared myself in the past, I am an arminian with some calvinistic leanings. To me, the end of the argument for this alleged "faith plus works" position is simply Ephesians 2:8-10. We are saved by grace, through faith, unto good works. We can work at making it more complicated if anyone desires to do so; but simplicity works for me, because I'm about as simple (minded) as they come.
Click to expand...

Here are some examples for you:

Crabtown post 70-
Your understanding is incomplete. The person acts on their faith through their free will. It is not an either or situation.

Just because a person has faith it does not mean they will act on that faith. For instance, I have faith that a parachute will open if I jump out of an airplane and pull the ripcord. But I am not going to act on that faith and jump out of an airplane.

Convicted post 123-
I heard someone say that belief is faith put into action. I think that this analogy sums that up quite nicely.

Skandelon post 128-
Right. And if you continually refused to act upon what you KNOW to be true then you have chosen to 'trade the truth in for a lie" and you stand "without excuse." This is what I was attempting to explain before...

Skandelon post 134-
Any one can believe the truth, but saving faith is belief in action. It is the choice to act in accordance with what you believe.

Skandelon 178-
We are talking about the CHOICE to trade what you KNOW to be true in for a lie. I agree with your assessment that we don't have to CHOOSE to believe. We Know the truth because God clearly reveals it. The choice is whether or not we act on that truth or trade it in for lies.

Skandelon 186-
Right, there must be the willingness to act in accordance with what you know to be true. Demons (or the lost) may know Jesus is the son of God but refuse to follow him as Lord of their lives.
 
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Aaron

Member
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Faith alone.

Works accompany faith as smoke accompanies fire. They issue from faith. Not by choice or volition, but by nature as smoke issues from fire. They are the signs of faith. Where there are no works, there is no faith.
 
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Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Luke2427 said:
Here are some examples for you:

Crabtown post 70-
Your understanding is incomplete. The person acts on their faith through their free will. It is not an either or situation.

Just because a person has faith it does not mean they will act on that faith. For instance, I have faith that a parachute will open if I jump out of an airplane and pull the ripcord. But I am not going to act on that faith and jump out of an airplane.

Convicted post 123-
I heard someone say that belief is faith put into action. I think that this analogy sums that up quite nicely.

Skandelon post 128-
Right. And if you continually refused to act upon what you KNOW to be true then you have chosen to 'trade the truth in for a lie" and you stand "without excuse." This is what I was attempting to explain before...
Skandelon post 134-
Any one can believe the truth, but saving faith is belief in action. It is the choice to act in accordance with what you believe.
Skandelon 178-
We are talking about the CHOICE to trade what you KNOW to be true in for a lie. I agree with your assessment that we don't have to CHOOSE to believe. We Know the truth because God clearly reveals it. The choice is whether or not we act on that truth or trade it in for lies.
Skandelon 186-
Right, there must be the willingness to act in accordance with what you know to be true. Demons (or the lost) may know Jesus is the son of God but refuse to follow him as Lord of their lives.
Click to expand...
Definitely works-based salvation.
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
Aaron said:
Faith alone.

Works accompany faith as smoke accompanies fire. They issue from faith. Not by choice or volition, but by nature as smoke issues from fire. They are the signs of faith. Where there are no works, there is no faith.
Click to expand...

Right.

The Calvinist affirms the biblical truth that we are saved by grace through faith.

The Arminian purports that we are saved by grace through CHOICE.


HUGE difference.
 
kyredneck

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Luke2427 said:
Arminians do not believe in sola fide. I think they give lip service to it and may even think they believe in it, but if the last thread along these lines is any indication, it is apparent that they are at their core not sola fide.

What was said numerous times was that you must believe AND ACT UPON THAT FAITH.

Salvation is therefore not by grace alone through faith alone but through faith plus some ACT that you perform once you have faith.
Click to expand...

This is confusing. How can it be by grace all by itself and also by faith all by itself? I've read some parroted statements in the past like 'by Christ alone by grace alone by faith alone'. The statement is confusing, it's stupid, it makes no sense. Some have 'gone to seed' with the word 'alone'.

If I were a sola fide person I would be a little concerned that this is the only mention to be found of 'faith alone' in the scriptures:

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2:24

Who REALLY thinks that James meant by that that salvation comes once you believe AND start performing works?
Click to expand...

IMO, you're confusing the inner nature that comes from the birth from above [REGENERATION] with the deliverance [SALVATION] that comes from faith/obedience.

Which comes first?:

1. A circumcised heart

2. Good works

3. Faith that is by hearing

What state was Abraham in prior to Gen 15:6?

Peter said, "Believe AND be baptized... and you shall be saved." But Peter goes on to clarify what he meant by saying, "Whoever does not believe will be damned."

So OBVIOUSLY Peter was saying that it is FAITH that saves us from damnation- not faith AND baptism.
Click to expand...

IMO, you make the same mistake of 'the many' and insert eternity into the passage where it is not intended.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72061 :

"Mk 16:16 is immediately referring to the Jews of 'that generation'. Their belief or unbelief would ultimately determine whether they were 'saved from' or 'condemned to' the casting forth of Mt 8:12, or the wrath of Mt 3:7 & Lu 21:22,32, or the destruction of Acts 3:23, or the breaking off of Ro 11:20, etc.."
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
kyredneck said:
This is confusing. How can it be by grace all by itself and also by faith all by itself? I've read some parroted statements in the past like 'by Christ alone by grace alone by faith alone'. The statement is confusing, it's stupid, it makes no sense. Some have 'gone to seed' with the word 'alone'.
Click to expand...

It's stupid??

I'm surprised at you.

Pay closer attention to the prepositions, Brother. BY grace alone THROUGH faith alone.

Hope this helps.
 
kyredneck

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Luke2427 said:
It's stupid??

I'm surprised at you.

Pay closer attention to the prepositions, Brother. BY grace alone THROUGH faith alone.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

No, I'm still confused. I ask again:

How can it be by grace all by itself and also by faith all by itself?

And yes, a statement like 'by Christ alone by grace alone by faith alone' is stupid.
 
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preacher4truth

Active Member
I believe faith is simply evidence of salvation. It's not something we had within us, it's not something we flexed to make it valid, it's a gift from God, and possessing genuine faith is simply evidence one is His.

The errant views of faith that we need to "act" to get something, that it's some "power source" within man, that we need to "muster it up" within us for to recieve things is nonsense. These teachings have arisen form theologies that either don't believe faith the gift of God, or, those that believe we must "exercise" it to be saved, easy-believism &c versus it simply being evidence of one being elect. These false views have helped WoF and other false teachings exploit people out of millions in asking them to "exercise" their faith. It's led to many serious errors within the "church."
 
kyredneck

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
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What's unscriptural about this passage?:

for by grace alone have ye been saved through faith alone; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Eph 2:8
 
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