By faith alone or by faith and acting?

[kyredneck]

....for some reason I wasn't meant to be saved that day.

I've already posed this question on the thread, no one nibbled, I ask it again (and it IS on topic):

"What state was Abraham in prior to Gen 15:6?"

 

[MB]

Arminians do not believe in sola fide. I think they give lip service to it and may even think they believe in it, but if the last thread along these lines is any indication, it is apparent that they are at their core not sola fide.

Look who's talking We all know we are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by Grace through faith.

What was said numerous times was that you must believe AND ACT UPON THAT FAITH.

Well "Faith" is a verb. That in it's self describes an action.

Salvation is therefore not by grace alone through faith alone but through faith plus some ACT that you perform once you have faith.

No submission, no grace. No Faith, No Grace. How did you come by grace didn't you have any faiith?

Support for that line of reasoning came in the form of various proof texts like "Faith without works is dead."

Oh no did you discover a contradiction in scripture?
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

But don't we all really know that what James is saying is that TRUE FAITH will manifest itself in the performance of godly works?

Actually No. What he meant was that if you have no works your faith has gone stale.
By the way your not teaching that we can loose our Salvation if we have no works are you?

Who REALLY thinks that James meant by that that salvation comes once you believe AND start performing works?

I believe there for I'm saved and I do not have to do anything else to maintain my Salvation. I have been sealed and Salvation for works is rediculous.

Peter said, "Believe AND be baptized... and you shall be saved." But Peter goes on to clarify what he meant by saying, "Whoever does not believe will be damned."

So OBVIOUSLY Peter was saying that it is FAITH that saves us from damnation- not faith AND baptism.

Only the Calvinist can cling to sola fide (I know some Calvinists have not, but only the Calvinist really can). Because only the Calvinist recognizes that faith is something through which we are ACTUALLY saved- not potentially saved. And only the Calvinist understands that faith is not a choice but a condition.

Being saved by grace through faith is not saved by faith alone. In fact there are many things necessary for Salvation. Conviction in my opinion is with out doubt the most important. Because with out conviction You have no repentence. Yet another requirement for Salvation.

Question for Skandelon, Webdog, Winman, Quantum, and the other non-cals:
What ACT along side of faith must we perform to be saved?

We must believe, repent, and confess our sins. We must place our faith or trust in Christ. and most of all we must submit to His righteousness. Romans 10:1-4

In other words, if I understand you correctly, you say one must ACT upon his faith to be saved. Faith alone is not enough to save because, as you say, "the devils believe" and are not saved.

So what work or ACT upon our faith (faith that does not save us by itself) must we perform?

I answered this in my last answer.
MB

 

[seekingthetruth]

I've already posed this question on the thread, no one nibbled, I ask it again (and it IS on topic):

"What state was Abraham in prior to Gen 15:6?"

Arkansas!

Which was previously known as "The Garden of Eden".:saint:

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

Most winos in the gutter will tell you they have faith that Jesus is Lord, but they refuse to act on that faith.

John

 

[kyredneck]

My apologies to you Luke, I should refrain from these threads because I make a clear distinction between the eternal and the temporal in salvation, the majority, Cal & Arm, do not.

I do agree with your assessment in post #11:

"The Calvinist affirms the biblical truth that we are saved by grace through faith.

The Arminian purports that we are saved by grace through CHOICE.


HUGE difference."

 

[jbh28]

Faith alone means no works for salvation. It doesn't mean that there is no grace.

 

[preacher4truth]

Most winos in the gutter will tell you they have faith that Jesus is Lord, but they refuse to act on that faith.

John

No, they have mere mental assent, and Armini-ish and non-calvinist easy-believism teachings have helped facilitate this errant notion. "It's like sitting on that chair, you sit believing it will hold you, right? It's the same with Jesus, you simply make an act of faith in Him like sitting on a chair and then you're going to heaven!" That's a false Gospel.

 

[convicted1]

Since I have the author of the op on ignore, but was able to see it due to Willis quoting it in it's entirety (gee, thanks Willis ) and have been asked a question I will respond.

Nothing. As my 4 year old would say, "easy, peasy"

You're welcome.


I agree with you're nothing, err, I meant your nothing. :laugh: J/K....

 

[kyredneck]

Faith alone means no works for salvation. It doesn't mean that there is no grace.

Do you know of any 'faith alone' passages other than this one?:

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2:24

I think 'Sola Fide' has it's roots with Martin Luther and not the scriptures.

 

[convicted1]

Faith w/o works is dead. No works=dead faith.

 

[jbh28]

Do you know of any 'faith alone' passages other than this one?:

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2:24

I think 'Sola Fide' has it's roots with Martin Luther and not the scriptures.

I only need one. God only has to say something once for it to be true.

The context of James is that of true faith. James is not contradicting Paul in saying that works plus faith save. Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly, very, very clearly teach that salvation is not of works. James is teaching what true faith is like. It works.

Faith w/o works is dead. No works=dead faith.

Correct:thumbs::thumbs:

Faith precedes action, action is simply evidence of the faith that was present beforehand.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul here says that any man who calls on Jesus to forgive their sins will be saved. Then he asks "how" can a man call on him in whom they have not believed?

If you do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God who died for your sins and rose from the dead, you are not going to call on him. It is really that simple. The calling on Jesus is simply an evidence of the faith a person already had.

I have heard the analogy of someone running into a crowded theater and shouting, Fire!, fire!. You can easily tell who believes, because they will immediately jump up and head for an exit. Those who do not believe will remain in their seats.

Great analogy of a fire. If one says they believe they are in danger of a fire, but don't move, don't really believe they are in danger of a fire. A true believer of the danger of a fire will get up and head for an exit. The same is true of believers. If one says that he believes, but doesn't act like it, he really isn't a believer. Paul says right after that salvation is not of works says that we are created for good works. "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

A mark of a believers is good works.

 

[kyredneck]

I only need one. God only has to say something once for it to be true.

The context of James is that of true faith. James is not contradicting Paul in saying that works plus faith save. Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly, very, very clearly teach that salvation is not of works. James is teaching what true faith is like. It works.......

Paul's contrast of faith vs works is in view of the intent to be justified by the works of the law.

James's connection of faith to works is in view of the law written on the heart from which both should come naturally.

17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. Jas 2

And Paul did mention concerning both the connection and the contrast of the two:

......the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:14

......by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:16

 

[jbh28]

Paul's contrast of faith vs works is in view of the intent to be justified by the works of the law.

NO NO NO NO NO! Paul says the exact opposite. Not of works.

James's connection of faith to works is in view of the law written on the heart from which both should come naturally.

17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. Jas 2

James teaches to show faith by works. True faith will have works.

And Paul did mention concerning both the connection and the contrast of the two:

......the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:14

......by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:16

Try reading Galations 2:16 once more. This time, read what you wrote...then read the entire verse.
by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[kyredneck]

NO NO NO NO NO! Paul says the exact opposite. Not of works.

You misunderstood. Paul's contrast of faith vs works is to show that justification is NOT through the [intentional] works of the law. It never was.

James teaches to show faith by works. True faith will have works.

Look at what you're saying. Faith doesn't produce works anymore than works produce faith, the two arise from the same source, the supernatually regenerated heart. Good works and faith come from within, by nature of the heavenly birth.

It's regeneration first, then good works and faith.

 

[DaChaser1]

Arminians do not believe in sola fide. I think they give lip service to it and may even think they believe in it, but if the last thread along these lines is any indication, it is apparent that they are at their core not sola fide.

What was said numerous times was that you must believe AND ACT UPON THAT FAITH.

Salvation is therefore not by grace alone through faith alone but through faith plus some ACT that you perform once you have faith.

Support for that line of reasoning came in the form of various proof texts like "Faith without works is dead."

But don't we all really know that what James is saying is that TRUE FAITH will manifest itself in the performance of godly works?

Who REALLY thinks that James meant by that that salvation comes once you believe AND start performing works?

Peter said, "Believe AND be baptized... and you shall be saved." But Peter goes on to clarify what he meant by saying, "Whoever does not believe will be damned."

So OBVIOUSLY Peter was saying that it is FAITH that saves us from damnation- not faith AND baptism.

Only the Calvinist can cling to sola fide (I know some Calvinists have not, but only the Calvinist really can). Because only the Calvinist recognizes that faith is something through which we are ACTUALLY saved- not potentially saved. And only the Calvinist understands that faith is not a choice but a condition.

Question for Skandelon, Webdog, Winman, Quantum, and the other non-cals:
What ACT along side of faith must we perform to be saved?

In other words, if I understand you correctly, you say one must ACT upon his faith to be saved. Faith alone is not enough to save because, as you say, "the devils believe" and are not saved.

So what work or ACT upon our faith (faith that does not save us by itself) must we perform?

Think where cals/Arms disagree on faith is right at the intial aspect of its very BASIS...

Do we possess inherit faith within ourselves to believe in jesus, or is it something that God provides for us to have?

 

[jbh28]

You misunderstood. Paul's contrast of faith vs works is to show that justification is NOT through the [intentional] works of the law. It never was.

I thought you said it was through works.

Look at what you're saying. Faith doesn't produce works anymore than works produce faith, the two arise from the same source, the supernatually regenerated heart. Good works and faith come from within, by nature of the heavenly birth.

It's regeneration first, then good works and faith.

That's a little different from what I read before. I'm not going to engage in this thread the regeneration before faith issue.

 

[DaChaser1]

You misunderstood. Paul's contrast of faith vs works is to show that justification is NOT through the [intentional] works of the law. It never was.



Look at what you're saying. Faith doesn't produce works anymore than works produce faith, the two arise from the same source, the supernatually regenerated heart. Good works and faith come from within, by nature of the heavenly birth.

It's regeneration first, then good works and faith.

Good works are a byproduct of the sinner become changed by God into a saint!

the Lord redeems us, then when we walk in the person/power of the HS are the good works done, to the glory of God!

As John calvin agreed with this , as "we are saved by faith alone, but the type of faith that really saves is not alone!"

saved by grace, than doing good works unto God!

 

[Don]

Here are some examples for you:

Crabtown post 70-
Your understanding is incomplete. The person acts on their faith through their free will. It is not an either or situation.

Just because a person has faith it does not mean they will act on that faith. For instance, I have faith that a parachute will open if I jump out of an airplane and pull the ripcord. But I am not going to act on that faith and jump out of an airplane.

Convicted post 123-
I heard someone say that belief is faith put into action. I think that this analogy sums that up quite nicely.

Skandelon post 128-
Right. And if you continually refused to act upon what you KNOW to be true then you have chosen to 'trade the truth in for a lie" and you stand "without excuse." This is what I was attempting to explain before...

Skandelon post 134-
Any one can believe the truth, but saving faith is belief in action. It is the choice to act in accordance with what you believe.

Skandelon 178-
We are talking about the CHOICE to trade what you KNOW to be true in for a lie. I agree with your assessment that we don't have to CHOOSE to believe. We Know the truth because God clearly reveals it. The choice is whether or not we act on that truth or trade it in for lies.

Skandelon 186-
Right, there must be the willingness to act in accordance with what you know to be true. Demons (or the lost) may know Jesus is the son of God but refuse to follow him as Lord of their lives.

Interestingly enough, you posted this and several of those that agree with you immediately jumped on the band wagon in saying that these statements somehow say works are required for salvation.

But I read them, and I don't see that at all. I see people saying exactly what Aaron analogized: Where there's fire, there's smoke. Where there's no smoke, there's no fire.

It appears you've created a position regarding non-cals that doesn't exist. Well, except maybe for CrabtownBoy; he and I disagree on quite a few things, but mostly politics.

But I'll be happy to let the others speak for themselves to clarify their positions.

 

[Winman]

Faith is a judgment.

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

Faith is not irresistibly caused, it is a judgment and a decision or choice. For example, suppose three teenage boys all dressed like "gangta's" carrying skateboards told you they just saw a UFO land in the parking lot behind City Hall. Would you beliieve them? I wouldn't. Why? Besides the fact that this is a fantastic story and difficult to believe, teenage boys, especially skateboarder types are generally viewed as very immature, irresponsible, and mischievous. They are most likely just yanking your chain to have a little fun.

But what if a polieceman, your pastor, and your mother and father approached you and told you they just saw a UFO land in the parking lot behind City Hall, would you believe them? I think I would, or at the very least I would believe they had seen SOME object that appeared to be a UFO land behind City Hall. They may be mistaken, but they are not lying. As wild as this story is, I think most folks would believe witnesses like this. And I think I would believe enough to run down and see if I could see this object myself.

So, faith is not irresistibly caused, but there are other factors that determine whether one believes another's story or testimony. If the witness is a mature and credible person, there is far more chance you will believe their story. This shows faith is a judgment and a choice.

When I was a boy I read the Bible. There were many strange stories that seemed difficult to believe, like Moses parting the Red Sea, or his rod turning into a serpent, or Jonah being swallowed by whale, etc...

But when it came to the heart, the Bible was absolutely accurate. The Bible told me not what I wanted to hear about myself, but what I knew to be true. It had a ring of truth I could not deny. So, as fantastic as these stories seemed to be, I believed the Bible and still do. I could look around and see from all creation that there was a God, and the God of the Bible sounded right to me. So, I was convinced and persuaded by the scriptures, I made the choice to believe it, just as I would choose to believe my pastor and my mother and father if they told me a story, even if it was fantastic.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Think where cals/Arms disagree on faith is right at the intial aspect of its very BASIS...

Do we possess inherit faith within ourselves to believe in jesus, or is it something that God provides for us to have?

What about us regular Christians that are neither Calvinist nor Arminian?

I believe Cals and Arminians BOTH have it wrong. One side says salvation as a result of faith is irresistible, and the other says it's conditional.

John