Catholic Mary

[DHK]

Hi DHK,
You're not denying that Jesus still has a body, of course. So what do you mean then, that God is only spirit, not flesh? Is it wrong to worship the physical bodily Christ?

I don't deny that Jesus had a body. Do you know what it looked like?
Do you know what it looks like now? Does anyone alive know what Christ looks like. Because we don't and we try to make images that are vain and empty in his likeness it is wrong. The Ten Commandments still stand, even if Jesus has a body. Don't make images of God. Worship him in spirit and in truth. Jesus is God. Prayer is spiritual, done in spirit. It is wrong to worship any physical image or physical body.

Well, for the record, I don't think Mary is omniscient or omni-present. I agree it would be a big problem to give the saints those traits.

Reason it out. There are at least one billion Catholics scattered all over the world. The sun never sets on the "RCC world." When you have Catholics praying in the morning in America you have Catholics praying in India in the Evening--12 hour time difference. Can Mary be in India and America at the same time to hear the prayers of both people. No. She is not omni-present. She cannot be everywhere to hear all the prayers of all the Catholics all over the world at the same time. Only an omni-present God can do that. Omni-presence is an attribute that only God has.

The same is true of omniscience. Not all prayers are vocalized. Not all prayers are in the same language. Does Mary know all the languages of the world, or at least all the languages of all the Catholics of the world? Can she know what is in the hearts of those that are praying to her but not vocalizing their prayers. No. She is not omniscient. She cannot know the hearts of these individuals. That is ascribing the attribute of omniscience to Mary, an attribute that belongs only to God.

I still think we must worship the same God. Otherwise why would I be so happy to hear about how you go to Islamic countries as a missionary? If we had different gods, that would upset me, but instead it gives me hope.

I go to an Islamic country to teach both Catholics and Muslims about the one and only True God of the Bible. Many Catholics get saved as a result of it. The RCC is usually the largest minority in many of these Islamic nations though the minority itself is small.

 

[The Biblicist]

Not at all just using the terms and clarity of what they mean.

"Clarity" as defined by your choice of context for the terms being used.

You are not even making any attempt to objectively or honestly treat this subject in the theological context we have placed it and explain it. You insist upon dissecting it in peices and then placing it in your own chosen context in order to explain what we mean!

Don't you think that kind of approach is oxymoronic? You have to first acknowledge what we mean and how we mean it before you can challenge it. You are not even acknowledging what we mean by our own words or the context which we place those words in?

You challenge it by jerking the terms out of the context they are placed in, totally ignoring the explanation we give and then proclaim it is illogical based upon YOUR intepretation due to jerking the terms out of our context and reinterpreting by YOUR context! Don't you think that is dishonest and oxymoronic at the minimum?

 

[DaChaser1]

Not at all just using the terms and clarity of what they mean.

Yes we agree. However that indicates that Faith is not alone in salvation. So you are not saved by faith alone but faith working in conjunction with other things.

Not at all because you admit one aspect doesn't assure salvation of its self alone. Faith with out Christ or Grace cannot save. Thus it is not alone.


Alone means
Therefore since grace, faith, Christ work together in conjunction with each other to provide salvation none are alone.

here it is concerning differences between RCC and us via the "Gospel"

We state from the Bible that man is made right by having the work of Christ upon the Cross for atonememnt for our sins effectual applied by garce towards us by faith ALONE...

jesus act fully justifies a sinner before God , at the VERY moment jesus is received through and by faith in Him!
That is when God regenerates us, saves us, seals us etc

sinners become a saint...

Goes to heaven right after death, as ALL sins have been atoned for by act of Christ upon the cross, and once that is received...

Good works will folowing being saved, that we will walk in good works and reflect a changed life will show, but as a resuly of already saved by god, NOT part of it, nor done by us in order to get it!

RCC Gospel does everything backwards, in that we have to get 'fgood enough' by agreeing with God and partaking of sacramental graces, on order through enough good works, enough taking of grace of the sacraments, can finally get to the point where god sees us just enough to be declared justified!

God to us sees jesus as the justifier, not ourselves, while RCC sees it as being we HAVE to be right first, then God can declare us to be justifed in his sight!

Difference between saved by grace alone, vrs by Grace applied to us once we have worked enough to merit it!

 

[The Biblicist]

You are jerking our language out of the context we place it in and then putting it in the context of your own making where you can attack it. When placed in the context of your making it is oxymoronic. But when it is placed back in the context of our making it is consistent with not only our doctrine but with scripture.

First the term "salvation" is comphrehensive of more than justification by faith. So to place all these terms equally in that comprehensive context distorts/perverts what we are saying. If you want to distinguish different aspects by using the past versus the present and future tense of "save" then that is fine as long as the right tense is aligned with the right aspect of salvation ("saved" = regeneration/justification; "being saved" = progessive sanctification; "shall be saved" = glorification).

Second, the term "alone" is defined by what each aspect (grace, faith, Christ) is contrasted with in scripture and in response to what Scripture eliminates as its only other alternative, thus leaving it ALONE wthout any other alternatives.

For example we are "justified" through "faith" ALONE! Justification though faith is contrasted in the scriptures with justification by works as the only other alternative. Scripture eliminates "justification by works"(Rom. 3:28) thus eliminating the only other alternative leaving ONLY "justification by faith" ALONE as the Biblical teaching. Since faith is "of grace" (Rom. 4:16) it is not contradictive to "grace" alone.

For example "Christ" and His provisions are placed in contrast with you and your provisions as the object of faith for justification. The scriptures eliminate you and your provisions as the proper object of faith for justification. Hence, Christ ALONE is the proper object of justifying faith.

For example, we are "saved" by "grace" ALONE! Grace is contrasted with works in scriptures (Rom. 11:6) as the only contrasting alternative. Scriptures eliminate works and thus grace ALONE stands as the basis for salvation.

Hence, there are no "games" being played but the expression "by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE" accurately defines our soteriology and accurately defines the Biblical teaching.

The carefully worded explanation we give not only properly represents our soteriological position but it properly represents the scriptural teaching.

We do not use the term "alone" to deny that grace does not accompany faith or either does not accompany Christ as that would be a contradiction by context.

We use the term alone with each term according to the Bibiical context of how each term is contrasted to its only other alternative. When the scriptures excludes the other alternative that leaves ONLY the remaining choice.

This is very simple to grasp and understand. It is obvious you have no intention of correctly presenting what we are saying but are intentionally perverting to suit your own purpose which is to defend Roman Catholic soteriology.

 

[DaChaser1]

The carefully worded explanation we give not only properly represents our soteriological position but it properly represents the scriptural teaching.

We do not use the term "alone" to deny that grace does not accompany faith or either does not accompany Christ as that would be a contradiction by context.

We use the term alone with each term according to the Bibiical context of how each term is contrasted to its only other alternative. When the scriptures excludes the other alternative that leaves ONLY the remaining choice.

This is very simple to grasp and understand. It is obvious you have no intention of correctly presenting what we are saying but are intentionally perverting to suit your own purpose which is to defend Roman Catholic soteriology.

grace alone saved us, as that is from God, from the Cross , but will be accompanied AFTER salvation by good works and changed life, confirms the rreality of being saved, NOT part of getting saved!

 

[JarJo]

I don't deny that Jesus had a body. Do you know what it looked like?
Do you know what it looks like now? Does anyone alive know what Christ looks like. Because we don't and we try to make images that are vain and empty in his likeness it is wrong. The Ten Commandments still stand, even if Jesus has a body. Don't make images of God. Worship him in spirit and in truth. Jesus is God. Prayer is spiritual, done in spirit. It is wrong to worship any physical image or physical body.

No, I don't know what Jesus looked like, and in fact each crucifix and statue makes Him look a bit different. On the other hand I think we all know that they are just artistic representations, and not accurate. Much like the ideas in our mind about what Jesus was like.

Reason it out. There are at least one billion Catholics scattered all over the world. The sun never sets on the "RCC world." When you have Catholics praying in the morning in America you have Catholics praying in India in the Evening--12 hour time difference. Can Mary be in India and America at the same time to hear the prayers of both people. No. She is not omni-present. She cannot be everywhere to hear all the prayers of all the Catholics all over the world at the same time. Only an omni-present God can do that. Omni-presence is an attribute that only God has.

The same is true of omniscience. Not all prayers are vocalized. Not all prayers are in the same language. Does Mary know all the languages of the world, or at least all the languages of all the Catholics of the world? Can she know what is in the hearts of those that are praying to her but not vocalizing their prayers. No. She is not omniscient. She cannot know the hearts of these individuals. That is ascribing the attribute of omniscience to Mary, an attribute that belongs only to God.

Since the saints are beyond time, they have all of eternity to listen to what we say or think, if God lets them listen to it, one sentence at a time without being omnipotent. Also as a Christian you probably know that the Holy Spirit helps you to pray for others. You might not even be completely aware of all the prayers being said on your behalf by the Holy Spirit. We're all connected in Christ. It's very mystical.

I go to an Islamic country to teach both Catholics and Muslims about the one and only True God of the Bible. Many Catholics get saved as a result of it. The RCC is usually the largest minority in many of these Islamic nations though the minority itself is small.

I know first hand that a lot of Catholics really need to hear the gospel. I'm sure that when a catholic converts to Baptist he probably didn't know Christ to begin with, so it is a good thing.

 

[Grace&Truth]

Not necessarily. Look at Jewish culture - then as today, you will see that the term brothers and sisters applies not only to extended family such as cousins, but also to friends of the family.

Lets look at the scriptural reference that you used earlier to make this claim. If scripture shows any deviation from the "face reading" meaning of Jesus' biological brothers and sisters, then you stated position must be false.

Matthew 13:55
"Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"

These "brothers" are actually named in Matthew and Mark's Gospels:

Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome").

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

This "other Mary" was probably Mary's (Jesus's Mother) cousin - not sister. the Greek word used here is Adelphe, which means sister, cousin, kinswoman, fellow countrywoman, neighbor, etc. It is highly unlikely that Mary had a uterine sister whose name was also Mary. This goes against Jewish custom.

Besides, according to John's Gospel, this other Mary is the wife of Clopas (also called Alphaeus).
This would make the "brethren" of Jesus his cousins - probably 2nd cousins, actually.

WM
You say they were PROBABLY 2nd cousins - This seems to be totally speculations to prove that which is read into Scripture. I just want to note that when Scripture refers to the relationship of Mary and Elizabeth a different Greek word was used;

Luke 1:36 Mary’s cousin Elizabeth
συγγενής
suggenēs
soong-ghen-ace'
From G4862 and G1085; a relative (by blood); by extension a fellow countryman: - cousin, kin (-sfolk, -sman).

as well as in Colossians when referred to Marcus "sister son" to Barnabas:

Col. 4:10 sister’s son
ανέψιος
anepsios
an-eps'-ee-os
From G1 (as a particle of union) and an obsolete form νέπος nepos (a brood); properly akin, that is, (specifically) a cousin: - sister’s son.

Why would these particular Scriptures not do the same and leave us to speculate?

Also, would not the Scriptures use these other Greek words to distinguish that these were cousins of Jesus rather than use the Greek work for brother/sister. I think that God would have if He was wanting to make it clear that Mary had no other children so as to prove from Scripture beyond any shadow of a doubt that Mary remained a virgin....however it does not, and it does not anywhere teach such a doctrine so therefore must be rejected. We must read it in its normal natural sense of the word.

 

[The Biblicist]

grace alone saved us, as that is from God, from the Cross , but will be accompanied AFTER salvation by good works and changed life, confirms the rreality of being saved, NOT part of getting saved!

Be careful when you use the term "salvation" as it is far more comprehensive than any one aspect of salvation, like the past tense aspect "saved" because there is more than the past tense aspect.

What I am saying is very simple and easy to grasp if a person wants to grasp it.

When we use the term "alone" in the phrase,

"Justified by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE"

First, we are only dealing with one aspect of salvation - Justification.

Second, we are dealing with different aspects of justification by the different terms "grace...faith....Christ"

Third, when we use the term "alone" in connection to each aspect we are simply agreeing with the scriptures which always contrasts each aspect with its only other alternative and eliminates that alternative leaving only one ALONE as the right alternative.

For example, "grace" is always contrasted to "works" as the proper BASIS of justification but Romans 11:6 eliminates works as the right option between the two leaving grace ALONE.

For example, "justification through faith" is always contrasted to "justification through works" as the proper MEANS of justification but Romans 3:27-28 eliminate "justificaiton through works" as the proper choice and that leaves "justification by faith" ALONE

For example, "Christ and his works" are always contrasted with SELF and our works" as the proper OBJECT of faith for justification but Romans 3:24-26 with 4:1-6 eliminates self and self-produced works as the proper object or inclusive inclusive for justification by faith.

The term "alone" is designed to identify the only right alternative between only two contrasting alternatives in regard to the basis, the means and the object of justification.

 

[DHK]

No, I don't know what Jesus looked like, and in fact each crucifix and statue makes Him look a bit different. On the other hand I think we all know that they are just artistic representations, and not accurate. Much like the ideas in our mind about what Jesus was like.

Please read the Ten Commandments right from the Bible starting with Exodus 20, verse one and following. Those artistic representations are what the Bible calls images, and are condemned right there in the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Since the saints are beyond time, they have all of eternity to listen to what we say or think, if God lets them listen to it, one sentence at a time without being omnipotent.

This is only conjecture on your part. Omniscience and omnipresence belongs only to God. Not even Satan has this ability. Satan is ubiquitious. It only seems as if he is every where because of the minions of demons that help him. But Satan can only be at one place at one time. The saints in heaven are not greater then Satan. Picture what happened in the Book of Job. Satan and the sons of God stood before God. Then Satan had a conversation with God. There was a place and as it were "time." It was related to the time on earth; it had to be. For human activity is on earth.

You conjecture. "IF God..." There is no IF here. In reality these are dead people. Their bodies are still in the grave. We have no right to pray to the dead at all. Do you go to the cemetery and pray to your great grand father? Why not? Because he is dead. It is foolish to do so. It is ancestor worship, a practice of Shintoism.

Also as a Christian you probably know that the Holy Spirit helps you to pray for others. You might not even be completely aware of all the prayers being said on your behalf by the Holy Spirit. We're all connected in Christ. It's very mystical.

No, it is not mystical at all. The Christian always has use of his mind. Those that are in error let loose of their mind or give up control of it. They are in danger of being controlled by a demon. The Charismatic movement does this. They open up their minds, to anything that may enter in, including demonic influences. Stay away from mystical religions.

Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
--The groanings cannot be uttered. You can't say them.
--The groaning are of the Holy Spirit, not of you.
--The Holy Spirit's work here is part of the work of Christ as he makes intercession for us in his role of our Great High Priest. See Heb.4:15-18

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
--Read the Bible for guidance. As you do God will search your heart through His Spirit. Again he makes intercession for us. We are the saints. Christ is our Great High Priest. This has nothing to do with saints in heaven.

Read the beginning of this epistle and see to whom it is addressed:
Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I know first hand that a lot of Catholics really need to hear the gospel. I'm sure that when a catholic converts to Baptist he probably didn't know Christ to begin with, so it is a good thing.

Yes that is true.

 

[DaChaser1]

Be careful when you use the term "salvation" as it is far more comprehensive than any one aspect of salvation, like the past tense aspect "saved" because there is more than the past tense aspect.

What I am saying is very simple and easy to grasp if a person wants to grasp it.

When we use the term "alone" in the phrase,

"Justified by grace ALONE through faith ALONE in Christ ALONE"

First, we are only dealing with one aspect of salvation - Justification.

Second, we are dealing with different aspects of justification by the different terms "grace...faith....Christ"

Third, when we use the term "alone" in connection to each aspect we are simply agreeing with the scriptures which always contrasts each aspect with its only other alternative and eliminates that alternative leaving only one ALONE as the right alternative.

For example, "grace" is always contrasted to "works" as the proper BASIS of justification but Romans 11:6 eliminates works as the right option between the two leaving grace ALONE.

For example, "justification through faith" is always contrasted to "justification through works" as the proper MEANS of justification but Romans 3:27-28 eliminate "justificaiton through works" as the proper choice and that leaves "justification by faith" ALONE

For example, "Christ and his works" are always contrasted with SELF and our works" as the proper OBJECT of faith for justification but Romans 3:24-26 with 4:1-6 eliminates self and self-produced works as the proper object or inclusive inclusive for justification by faith.

The term "alone" is designed to identify the only right alternative between only two contrasting alternatives in regard to the basis, the means and the object of justification.

when I use that term, I try to differiate between the intial act of salvation, at the time of God justifing us by grace/faith alone, and also the process of us getting more confirmed into image of Christ, our daily sauntification!

Still think we see it as justified first by God, than after that, the Lord works with and through us to complete the procress of getting us than into image of Christ!

Our RCC friends see it as we work with God to get into image of Christ enough to allow God to then be able to justify us!

They will see it as being of grace alone, as God provides the Grace in sacraments to allow us to be able to actual get there and get saved!

 

[The Biblicist]

when I use that term, I try to differiate between the intial act of salvation, at the time of God justifing us by grace/faith alone, and also the process of us getting more confirmed into image of Christ, our daily sauntification!

Still think we see it as justified first by God, than after that, the Lord works with and through us to complete the procress of getting us than into image of Christ!

Our RCC friends see it as we work with God to get into image of Christ enough to allow God to then be able to justify us!

They will see it as being of grace alone, as God provides the Grace in sacraments to allow us to be able to actual get there and get saved!

Yes, that is the difference between the terms "saved" "being saved" and "shall be saved" as the first deal with initial regeneration/conversion/justification while the second deals with the progressive work of the Holy Spirit within us due to regeneration and the latter deals with the complete glorification of our body.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

here it is concerning differences between RCC and us via the "Gospel"

Ok lets hear what you have to say.

We state from the Bible that man is made right by having the work of Christ upon the Cross for atonememnt for our sins effectual applied by garce towards us by faith ALONE...

Do you obtain faith without Grace? Obviously not thus Faith is not working alone faith is part of several things that make up salvation. Thus Faith in conjunction with Grace and towards Christ bring about salvation. Faith is not alone. Its like works. Works do not save of themselves either. However if works are the result of faith, grace, and Christ they bolster our faith all of which saves.

jesus act fully justifies a sinner before God

Yes he does

at the VERY moment jesus is received through and by faith in Him!

He doesn't if the sinner does not have grace and faith.

That is when God regenerates us, saves us, seals us etc

Yes he does but he uses the symbol of our salvation to seal within us the covenant and that is baptism.

sinners become a saint...

So long as they turn from their sin. However, what to do about those who then live in sin rejecting the life style Jesus instructs us to have? Are they still saints?

The rest of your post is wrong.

RCC Gospel does everything backwards, in that we have to get 'fgood enough' by agreeing with God

First of all even protestants know you cannot even come to God unless you agree with him that you are a sinner. But no where does it teach you have to be (and I hope you had a typing error rather than a referrence to profanity) "good enough". In fact upon faith and making covenant with God by baptism you are saved. And as long as you don't apostate you will be saved. there is nothing about being "good enough". All the sacramental actions are to increase our likeness to Jesus Christ. The Orthodox call this Theosis.

 

[DaChaser1]

Ok lets hear what you have to say.

Do you obtain faith without Grace? Obviously not thus Faith is not working alone faith is part of several things that make up salvation. Thus Faith in conjunction with Grace and towards Christ bring about salvation. Faith is not alone. Its like works. Works do not save of themselves either. However if works are the result of faith, grace, and Christ they bolster our faith all of which saves.

the Gift of God is eternal life in jesus Christ, and that Package of Grace includeds faith being given to us by the Lord in part of His work to redeem those whom are the elect of God!

Yes he does

He doesn't if the sinner does not have grace and faith.

God justifies the ungodly, as He provided the propiation/payment for our sins in the person of Christ and his death on Cross, and a sinner is FREELY and COMPLTELY justifed by God by aoppropiate that grace by means/via faith alone in the finished work of Christ!

sinner needs God to effectual apply His grace towards them to enable to to be able to respond by faith towards Christ, that is ENOUGH and ALL that sinner need to do!

Yes he does but he uses the symbol of our salvation to seal within us the covenant and that is baptism.

We become part of the new Covenant by becoming "renewed/born again" by act of God, by faith alone, and the HS Himself seals us when we become saved/justifed right at the time of intial faith in person /work of Christ!

So long as they turn from their sin. However, what to do about those who then live in sin rejecting the life style Jesus instructs us to have? Are they still saints?

true saints of God cannot keep on forever rejecting living as jesus wants us to, as we have new natures that will want to live life pleasing to God....

Christians that are genuinely saved will be those that at times may still be found in sin, but just for a season, and will eventually repent and turn back to god, as their nature will not allow them to always stay in the dark, are children of light!

saved can and do still sin, just the lord keeps and preserves His own!

The rest of your post is wrong. First of all even protestants know you cannot even come to God unless you agree with him that you are a sinner. But no where does it teach you have to be (and I hope you had a typing error rather than a referrence to profanity) "good enough". In fact upon faith and making covenant with God by baptism you are saved. And as long as you don't apostate you will be saved. there is nothing about being "good enough". All the sacramental actions are to increase our likeness to Jesus Christ. The Orthodox call this Theosis.

we make a covenant with God throughby faith alone receiving the Grace of God towards us fround in/by work odf Christ on our behalf!

baptism in water has NO meritorial aspct to it, as one becomes part of the new Covenat when God sees us being now "in Christ" at moment od receiving our justification before God!

You just admit here that RCC see us NEEDING to become enough like jesus ir oder to permit the lord to justify us, we ned to have "extra grace" supplied by sacrament to get us right enough to be declared saved...

What is lacking in the death of Chrsit on the Cross that other means/aids of Grace have to be provoded in order to 'assist" us in geting saved?

 

[Alive in Christ]

You know... I take them at their word. I figure they probably know what they believe better than you or I do. Just sayin...

Really? You take them at their word? I'm sure the parents of all those thousands of molested children "took them at their word" that their kids would be safe.

You bet - and there will be plenty of Catholics, Prodestants, etc. represented in that group.

I agree with you on that. The catholics wont be the only ones.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Really? You take them at their word? I'm sure the parents of all those thousands of molested children "took them at their word" that their kids would be safe.

So sin doesn't exist except in the Catholic church? The stats show that Protestant churches rank right up there with the Catholics.

WM

 

[Alive in Christ]

So sin doesn't exist except in the Catholic church? The stats show that Protestant churches rank right up there with the Catholics.

WM

But what do protestants do when someone is found out? They turn them over to the law do they can be tried and put in jail.

What do the Catholics do?

Hide it. Keep it *hush hush*. Quietly shuffle the pedophile priest to some other parish to continue on with his deeds. Gotta protect the reputation of *Holy Mother Church* at all costs, after all.

But...we are getting off topic now so I will let you have the last word on this,

then we can get back to Catholic religious practices.

 

[David Lamb]

Second Helvetic Confession

(from David Lamb's post 16). . .could be. . . .seems to. . . .could be seen . . . etc. etc. etc.

​

Of course there are always going to be some who claim to "hold" to a religious tradition/Confession yet pick and choose parts to discard or "reinterpret". We've seen this with the vaunted 1689 Confession here on the BB.

I somehow missed this, Jerome, or I would have replied sooner. The phrases you quoted from my post 16 were just another way of saying, "In my opinion..."

Here is a revised wording of my earlier post which I trust will convey my meaning better:

As it stands, Jerome, your statement suggests that all who espouse Reformed theology ("the Reformed" to use your wording) believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. That just is not so. Perhaps you are using the word "Reformed" in a different way to me.

Also, your words: "Second Helvetic Confession:
Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals " in my opinion gave the false impression that the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals holds to the perpetual virginity of Mary. The Alliance's site, on this page, has links to several Reformed confessions of faith, most of which do not say that Mary remained a virgin.
​

I trust that wording is clearer, and apologise for my earlier lack of clarity.

It was adopted by the Reformed Church not only throughout Switzerland but in Scotland (1566), Hungary (1567), France (1571), Poland (1578), and next to the Heidelberg Catechism is the most generally recognized confession of the Reformed Church.

Your quote from Wikipedia indicates (I was tempted to say "seems to indicate" ) that by "the Reformed" in your earlier post you did not mean (as I thought) "All Christians who embrace Reformed theology", but rather, certain Reformed denominations.

 

[WestminsterMan]

But what do protestants do when someone is found out? They turn them over to the law do they can be tried and put in jail.

What do the Catholics do?

Hide it. Keep it *hush hush*. Quietly shuffle the pedophile priest to some other parish to continue on with his deeds. Gotta protect the reputation of *Holy Mother Church* at all costs, after all.

But...we are getting off topic now so I will let you have the last word on this,

then we can get back to Catholic religious practices.

Can you show me statistics where Protestants do as you say? Since they are autonomous, then who other than the perpetrator would call the police? This sounds like garbage to me.

WM

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What is lacking in the death of Chrsit on the Cross that other means/aids of Grace have to be provoded in order to 'assist" us in geting saved?

You're error is assuming something is lacking in Christ Sacrifice on the Cross.

The rest is covenant "stuff". Ie Jesus wants us to enter into covenant with him. Thus the symbols and the seal and all the rest of it is in regards to covenant.

 

[mont974x4]

People wanted to elevate Mary early on. Jesus had something else in mind.

Luk 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."
Luk 11:28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."