Catholic Mary

[David Lamb]

You're error is assuming something is lacking in Christ Sacrifice on the Cross.

But Da Chaser did not "assume something is lacking in Christ Sacrifice on the Cross." Perhaps you missed the question mark in his words:

What is lacking in the death of Christ on the Cross that other means/aids of Grace have to be provided in order to 'assist" us in geting saved?
​

I could be wrong, but I understood him to mean:

The work of Christ on the Cross was complete. What is lacking in it that could cause some to believe that other means/aids of Grace have to be provided in order to 'assist" us in geting saved?
​

 

[WestminsterMan]

People wanted to elevate Mary early on. Jesus had something else in mind.

Luk 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."
Luk 11:28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

Luke 1:41-45
New International Version (NIV)

41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”

Luke 1:26-30
New International Version (NIV)

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God."

Hmmmm...

WM

 

[Moriah]

Luke 1:41-45
New International Version (NIV)

41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”

Luke 1:26-30
New International Version (NIV)

Hmmmm...

WM

WestMinisterMan,

Do you believe John the baptist leaped for joy in Elizabeth's womb because of Mary, or because of Jesus?

 

[Moriah]

Catholics elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus to that of “Mediatrix.” However, there is only one Mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5. It is wrong to pray to Mary. It is wrong to say the Rosary.
Catholics pray to Mary and ask her to go to Jesus with their request.

When Jesus saves someone…that person has Jesus living inside him or her. They are reconciled to God.
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Hebrews 4:16.

In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. Ephesians 3:12.

Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Romans 8:34.

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will. Romans 8:27.

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Hebrews 7:25.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5.

We do NOT go through Mary to get to Jesus and God!

Mary would not want to be exalted in such a way. In fact, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." Jesus replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." See Luke 11:27-28. Does that sound like Jesus wanted Mary exalted to the level that the Catholic Church has exalted her? No. Someone told Jesus, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you." Jesus replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice." See Luke 8:20-21. Does it sound like Jesus wants us to elevate and worship his mother? No!

Jesus did not come to this world to be a husband, or a father, or a son to Mary. Jesus came to this world to save us. When Jesus was on the cross, Jesus called Mary “woman,” and gave her to one of his disciples. See John 19:26.

Catholics believe Mary never had sexual intercourse with her husband Joseph. However, Joseph and Mary promised each other to get married, and this planned marriage was before Mary and Joseph knew that Mary was carrying the Son of God.
If Mary had plans to marry a man…surely she had in mind to have a marriage bed.

Mary having, or not having, sexual relations with her husband, after the birth of Jesus; this has no effect on our salvation. However, what does hurt one’s salvation is making up, and, or believing in things that are not God’s Word.

John 2: 1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4 “Woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
Mary told them to do whatever Jesus tells you. Catholics, please do what Jesus tells you to do.
Catholics call Mary the Mother of God. Mary is not the mother of God the Father; Mary is the Mother of the human Jesus.
The Bible does not say Mary was sinless. The Catholics claim that Mary had to be born by Immaculate Conception. They say Jesus could not be in the womb of a regular human woman. Where does that thinking end? If Jesus could not be born from a real human woman, then Mary could not be born from a real human mother either, and on and on. In addition, to say Mary was born by Immaculate Conception makes Mary not human. Jesus was born from a human mother; to say Mary was not a normal human would go against the scriptures.

 

[WestminsterMan]

WestMinisterMan,

Do you believe John the baptist leaped for joy in Elizabeth's womb because of Mary, or because of Jesus?

Obviously, the child leaped for joy because of Jesus. However, you are missing the point that the entire story elevates Mary. I simply provided an exception to another post.

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

Catholics elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus to that of “Mediatrix.” However, there is only one Mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5. It is wrong to pray to Mary. It is wrong to say the Rosary.
Catholics pray to Mary and ask her to go to Jesus with their request.

When Jesus saves someone…that person has Jesus living inside him or her. They are reconciled to God.
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Hebrews 4:16.

In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. Ephesians 3:12.

Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Romans 8:34.

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will. Romans 8:27.

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Hebrews 7:25.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5.

We do NOT go through Mary to get to Jesus and God!

Mary would not want to be exalted in such a way. In fact, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." Jesus replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." See Luke 11:27-28. Does that sound like Jesus wanted Mary exalted to the level that the Catholic Church has exalted her? No. Someone told Jesus, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you." Jesus replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice." See Luke 8:20-21. Does it sound like Jesus wants us to elevate and worship his mother? No!

Jesus did not come to this world to be a husband, or a father, or a son to Mary. Jesus came to this world to save us. When Jesus was on the cross, Jesus called Mary “woman,” and gave her to one of his disciples. See John 19:26.

Catholics believe Mary never had sexual intercourse with her husband Joseph. However, Joseph and Mary promised each other to get married, and this planned marriage was before Mary and Joseph knew that Mary was carrying the Son of God.
If Mary had plans to marry a man…surely she had in mind to have a marriage bed.

Mary having, or not having, sexual relations with her husband, after the birth of Jesus; this has no effect on our salvation. However, what does hurt one’s salvation is making up, and, or believing in things that are not God’s Word.

John 2: 1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”
4 “Woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”
Mary told them to do whatever Jesus tells you. Catholics, please do what Jesus tells you to do.
Catholics call Mary the Mother of God. Mary is not the mother of God the Father; Mary is the Mother of the human Jesus.
The Bible does not say Mary was sinless. The Catholics claim that Mary had to be born by Immaculate Conception. They say Jesus could not be in the womb of a regular human woman. Where does that thinking end? If Jesus could not be born from a real human woman, then Mary could not be born from a real human mother either, and on and on. In addition, to say Mary was born by Immaculate Conception makes Mary not human. Jesus was born from a human mother; to say Mary was not a normal human would go against the scriptures.

This should address many of your complaints above...taken from one of the earliest Christian statements of beliefs that Catholics recite at every mass.

The Creed of the Council of Constantinople of 381

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

WM

 

[Moriah]

This should address many of your complaints above...taken from one of the earliest Christian statements of beliefs that Catholics recite at every mass.

The Creed of the Council of Constantinople of 381


WM

You think the unbiblical writing of Creeds excuses all the blasphemous things the Catholic Church commits. Think again.

 

[WestminsterMan]

You think the unbiblical writing of Creeds excuses all the blasphemous things the Catholic Church commits. Think again.

Think being the operative word... Rather than once again resorting to name calling, why not address the parts with which you disagree. I await your response...

WM

 

[Moriah]

Think being the operative word... Rather than once again resorting to name calling, why not address the parts with which you disagree. I await your response...

WM

You used an unbiblical Creed to answer everything that I posted about the real mother of Jesus and the Catholic Mary. What is so difficult to understand about that IS addressing what you said.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

But Da Chaser did not "assume something is lacking in Christ Sacrifice on the Cross." Perhaps you missed the question mark in his words:

What is lacking in the death of Christ on the Cross that other means/aids of Grace have to be provided in order to 'assist" us in geting saved?
​

I could be wrong, but I understood him to mean:

The work of Christ on the Cross was complete. What is lacking in it that could cause some to believe that other means/aids of Grace have to be provided in order to 'assist" us in geting saved?
​

In that case. Grace provides us the ability to have faith and accept his sacrifice. There is no other means by which man has salvations. However, Jesus acting on our behalf as highpriest establishes how he wants us to covenant with him. Most of the things people accuse catholics of go back to that. Catholics do not minimize the effects of the sacrifice. However, what it is we also pay attention to is how Jesus prescribes to us how to covenant with him. And so a lot gets mixed up as "salvation" which is larger than the protestant conseption of it. Part of the problem is we have two different understandings of what salvation is. For the protestant its basically getting to heaven. For the Catholic its getting to heaven and the redeeming of humanity, changing our beings into the lickness of Jesus, and having a covenant relationship with him.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

People wanted to elevate Mary early on. Jesus had something else in mind.

Luk 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."
Luk 11:28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

Ah so Elizabeth wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit when she said.

39 At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40 where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Maybe Mary was lying when she said.

And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed

Protestants don't call Mary blessed. Some say she wasn't even a Christian! I've heard a person argue that she was the same as a whore! Imagine.

And as far as that passage. Do you ever over emphasise a point to make that point? Do you think Jesus disrespected his own mother?

 

[DHK]

In that case. Grace provides us the ability to have faith and accept his sacrifice.

There is nothing "magic" about "grace." The RCC has redefined grace. Thus there is all this confusion. You are talking past each other. What is grace? Grace is simply the "free unmerited favor of God," and that is all. Jesus defined it and gave examples of it. It is God's grace when he gives the rain to fall on the just and unjust alike, or to make the sun to shine on the just and the unjust alike. We don't deserve it. But he gives us the sunshine anyway. That is grace--undeserved favor that we do not merit.

In and of itself it has no saving power. It is simply God's unmerited favor bestowed upon man. It is an undeserved gift. The greatest gift that God gave to man (and undeservedly so) was the gift of His own son. He was God's gift to humanity. You cannot work for the incarnate Son of God. He came from Heaven. He was God's gift to the human race. There is no work involved. Christ allowed himself to be delivered into the hands of wicked men, and to be crucified, dying for the sins of mankind. This was a gift to mankind. It was God's favor that he bestowed upon man, that He did this for us. How can man work for what Christ did out of grace--free unmerited favor. He can't.

That gift of salvation, that penalty for sin paid on the cross, that blood that was shed, was done out of love--love for a condemned human race. Christ did not have to do that but he did. It was a gift. It was free and undeserved. We don't deserve that kind of love. We didn't merit it; we did nothing to attain it. He chose to come and die for us. We did not work for it. Grace is God's free unmerited favor to man, and he demonstrated this on the cross. It is free, and unmerited. One cannot work for it.

Grace comes from God. All the time. God is the author.
It is free unmerited favor, and the only thing left for man to do is accept it by faith. The free gift of salvation (which we don't deserve) must be accepted by faith and faith alone, otherwise grace is not grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Grace--the free unmerited favor of God.

 

[WestminsterMan]

You used an unbiblical Creed to answer everything that I posted about the real mother of Jesus and the Catholic Mary. What is so difficult to understand about that IS addressing what you said.

Un-biblical? Clearly you didn't even read it. Here - let me help you. I will give it to you point-by-point, for each point tell us whether you agree or disagree. If you disagree, then please explain why from a biblical perspective. [Bracket comments mine]

1) We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. [One God creator of all things]

2) And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
[The nature of God the Father and God the Son]

3) by whom all things were made; [God made all things]

4) who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
[Virgin Birth - hypo-static union]

5) He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
[Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus]

6) from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;
[2nd coming of Jesus]

7) whose kingdom shall have no end. [Eternal nature of God's kingdom]

8) And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. [The Trinity]

9) a. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; b. we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; c. we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. [Apostolic Church, Baptism, and The Resurrection]

The only things I could image you taking exception with would be points 9a & 9b.

So... tell us why each of these points falls into your category of "blasphemous".

WM

 

[annsni]

Ah so Elizabeth wasn't filled with the Holy Spirit when she said. Maybe Mary was lying when she said. Protestants don't call Mary blessed. Some say she wasn't even a Christian! I've heard a person argue that she was the same as a whore! Imagine.

And as far as that passage. Do you ever over emphasise a point to make that point? Do you think Jesus disrespected his own mother?

No. Mary WAS blessed - but Jesus was showing that she wasn't blessed more than believers will be blessed by him. There is no venerating Mary over any other human for any purpose. Yes, she was very blessed to be chosen to carry and raise Jesus - what an honor to do that. But she was not chosen for anything that she did or was or was in the future. Jesus showed clearly that she is not to be honored above anyone because of her role in history.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No. Mary WAS blessed - but Jesus was showing that she wasn't blessed more than believers will be blessed by him. There is no venerating Mary over any other human for any purpose. Yes, she was very blessed to be chosen to carry and raise Jesus - what an honor to do that. But she was not chosen for anything that she did or was or was in the future. Jesus showed clearly that she is not to be honored above anyone because of her role in history.

I'm glad you call her blessed. But that is not the norm from my experience.

The fact she gave birth to Jesus does put her over other people. No one else gave birth to the incarnation. Truelly Elizabeth was right to call her "the mother of my Lord". She did what Eve could not do. Obey God. That passage doesn't lessen the person of Mary as you suppose but emphasise that obedience to the father is what relates us together with Jesus Christ. Certainly Revelation 12 Shows Mary crowned and of importance.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

So... tell us why each of these points falls into your category of "blasphemous".

WM

9. If you stopped at 8, there would be hardly any problem.

There is nothing holy about the roman catholic church.
Baptism does not do a thing for sin.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There is nothing "magic" about "grace."

Rabbit hunt. I never said Grace was "magic" that is all you. What I did do was make the simple observation that without grace you couldn't even consider believing in Jesus Christ. Its obvious you want to pick on Grace which empowers and enables the believer in their life with Christ. You might not believe that but I do. Also by picking on grace you conviently ingored the covenant that Jesus calls us to which is the real difference between Protesants and Catholics. And Grace is more that "unmerited favor" Grace. The word Grace is made up of two latin words 1)Gratia and 2) Charis - which we get the word for Charism. So that in general

is a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation

So when we put all definitions together it

. In the first place, subjectively, grace signifies good will, benevolence; then, objectively, it designates every favour which proceeds from this benevolence and, consequently, every gratuitous gift (donum gratuitum, beneficium). In the former (subjective) sense, the king's grace grants life to the criminal condemned to death; in the latter (objective) sense the king distributes graces to his lieges. In this connection grace also stands for charm, attractiveness; as when we speak of the three Graces in mythology, or of the grace poured forth on the lips of the bridegroom (Psalm 44:3), because charm calls forth benevolent love in the giver and prompts him to the bestowal of benefactions. As the recipient of graces experiences, on his part, sentiments of gratefulness, and expresses these sentiments in thanks, the word gratiae (plural of gratia) also stands for thanksgiving in the expressions gratias agere and Deo gratias, which have their counterpart in the English, to say grace after meals.

 

[WestminsterMan]

9. If you stopped at 8, there would be hardly any problem.

There is nothing holy about the roman catholic church.

Well apparently there was in the 4th century.

Baptism does not do a thing for sin.

Well, I don't wish to derail the thread, but scripture is replete with examples to the contrary.

WM

 

[DHK]

Rabbit hunt. I never said Grace was "magic" that is all you. What I did do was make the simple observation that without grace you couldn't even consider believing in Jesus Christ. Its obvious you want to pick on Grace which empowers and enables the believer in their life with Christ. You might not believe that but I do. Also by picking on grace you conviently ingored the covenant that Jesus calls us to which is the real difference between Protesants and Catholics. And Grace is more that "unmerited favor" Grace. The word Grace is made up of two latin words 1)Gratia and 2) Charis - which we get the word for Charism. So that in general So when we put all definitions together it

Your last two or three statements in themselves show your lack of knowledge in the meaning of grace. The definition of grace does not come from the English language. It does not come from the Latin language. When we speak of "grace" we go right back to the Greek, from whence the word is used, and we find the word, "Charis." It has nothing to do with Latin. It is the free unmerited favor of God.
The American Tract Society Dictionary defines it this way:

GRACE
Favor, mercy. Divine grace is the free and undeserved love and favor of God towards man as a sinner, especially as exhibited in the plan of redemption through Jesus Christ, Joh 1:17; 3:16; Ro 3:24-26. It is only by the free grace of god that we embrace the offers of mercy, and appropriate to ourselves the blessings graciously purchased by redeeming blood.

You are wrong in your definition. When you start with wrong definitions, wrong propositions, you end up with wrong conclusions and wrong theology.

 

[Moriah]

Un-biblical? Clearly you didn't even read it. Here - let me help you. I will give it to you point-by-point, for each point tell us whether you agree or disagree. If you disagree, then please explain why from a biblical perspective. [Bracket comments mine]

1) We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. [One God creator of all things]

2) And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
[The nature of God the Father and God the Son]

3) by whom all things were made; [God made all things]

4) who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
[Virgin Birth - hypo-static union]

5) He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
[Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus]

6) from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;
[2nd coming of Jesus]

7) whose kingdom shall have no end. [Eternal nature of God's kingdom]

8) And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. [The Trinity]

9) a. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; b. we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; c. we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. [Apostolic Church, Baptism, and The Resurrection]

The only things I could image you taking exception with would be points 9a & 9b.

So... tell us why each of these points falls into your category of "blasphemous".

WM

Nowhere in the Bible does it say we are to make Creeds. In addition, how does your Creed excuse you from believing and obeying the rest of the Bible?