Catholic Mary

[Amy.G]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say we are to make Creeds.

And it doesn't say there is anything wrong with creeds either. Every church has a statement of faith. I wouldn't attend any church that had no statement of faith. How would I know the doctrines they adhere to without it?

 

[DaChaser1]

And it doesn't say there is anything wrong with creeds either. Every church has a statement of faith. I wouldn't attend any church that had no statement of faith. How would I know the doctrines they adhere to without it?

Creeds to me are statement of beliefs 'fleshed out" by citing scripturesmore detailed basis!

Not wrong on their own, but wrongIF seen as being on par with the scriptures, or gets quoted more often than the scriptures!

 

[Moriah]

And it doesn't say there is anything wrong with creeds either. Every church has a statement of faith. I wouldn't attend any church that had no statement of faith. How would I know the doctrines they adhere to without it?

There is no command in the Bible to make Creeds. It is just not biblical. Creeds have been revised from year to year. Creeds will not be used as a standard of judgment on judgment day. Creeds do not divulge all the practices of the said denomination, and as such can mislead others into a religion that has many errors.

 

[Amy.G]

Un-biblical? Clearly you didn't even read it. Here - let me help you. I will give it to you point-by-point, for each point tell us whether you agree or disagree. If you disagree, then please explain why from a biblical perspective. [Bracket comments mine]

1) We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. [One God creator of all things]

2) And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
[The nature of God the Father and God the Son]

3) by whom all things were made; [God made all things]

4) who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
[Virgin Birth - hypo-static union]

5) He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
[Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus]

6) from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;
[2nd coming of Jesus]

7) whose kingdom shall have no end. [Eternal nature of God's kingdom]

8) And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. [The Trinity]

9) a. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; b. we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; c. we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. [Apostolic Church, Baptism, and The Resurrection]

The only things I could image you taking exception with would be points 9a & 9b.

So... tell us why each of these points falls into your category of "blasphemous".

WM

Number 9 on your list is not biblical. We are not baptized "for" remission of sins, but because our sins have been remitted. Read about Cornelius in Acts to see that the Holy Spirit was given to him before he was baptized.

 

[Amy.G]

Creeds to me are statement of beliefs 'fleshed out" by citing scripturesmore detailed basis!

Not wrong on their own, but wrongIF seen as being on par with the scriptures, or gets quoted more often than the scriptures!

Of course. I never implied otherwise.

 

[Amy.G]

There is no command in the Bible to make Creeds. It is just not biblical. Creeds have been revised from year to year. Creeds will not be used as a standard of judgment on judgment day. Creeds do not divulge all the practices of the said denomination, and as such can mislead others into a religion that has many errors.

There's no command for pews or hymnals either but are they "unbiblical"?

 

[Moriah]

There's no command for pews or hymnals either but are they "unbiblical"?

If the Catholic Church made pews and hymnals a Creed, than that would be unbiblical.

 

[steaver]

I'm glad you call her blessed. But that is not the norm from my experience.

The fact she gave birth to Jesus does put her over other people. No one else gave birth to the incarnation. Truelly Elizabeth was right to call her "the mother of my Lord". She did what Eve could not do. Obey God. That passage doesn't lessen the person of Mary as you suppose but emphasise that obedience to the father is what relates us together with Jesus Christ. Certainly Revelation 12 Shows Mary crowned and of importance.

Don't see where Mary "obeyed" God, don't see where God asked Mary if she would like to be the mother of Jesus. Mary "believed" God, but obeying would suggest a choice in the matter. Mary was chosen.

Second, Revelation 12 cannot be about Mary. Mary never fled into the wilderness for 1260 days. This would have to be Israel during the Tribulation.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say we are to make Creeds.

Well, taking your logic to its ultimate conclusion...

1) Nowhere in the Bible does it say we are to make Creeds.
2) Thus, we are not to make Creeds
3) If the Bible doesn't tell us to do a thing, then we are not to do it.
4) Thus alter calls, RA's, dinner of the ground, Christmas cantatas, revivals, wearing a wedding band, and just about everything else is not to be done on the basis that the bible doesn't tell us to do them.

Now... take a deep breath...concentrate...try to be a cut above.

In addition, how does your Creed excuse you from believing and obeying the rest of the Bible?

First of all that is not "my" Creed - it comes from the council of Nicaea in the fourth century and that would be a council of THE Christian Church at that time.

Secondly, if you would show me exactly which point(s) in the Creed "...excuse me from believing and obeying the rest of the Bible?" then I can take your criticism and run with it. Otherwise, you just continue posting your meaningless accusations without one shred of evidence to back up anything that you say.

So... why not be intellectually honest for a change and respond to my original post. I'm sure everyone here would LOVE to see that!

Give it a try - you might find that you like it.

WM

 

[Amy.G]

If the Catholic Church made pews and hymnals a Creed, than that would be unbiblical.

You said that creeds were unbiblical because they weren't "commanded" in the bible. Neither are pews and hymnals, so why aren't they unbiblical? Use your own skewed logic here.

 

[Moriah]

You said that creeds were unbiblical because they weren't "commanded" in the bible. Neither are pews and hymnals, so why aren't they unbiblical? Use your own skewed logic here.

Is it a Catholic Creed to make pews and hymnals?

Stop trying to put me down with your skewed opinion.

 

[Moriah]

Well, taking your logic to its ultimate conclusion...

1) Nowhere in the Bible does it say we are to make Creeds.
2) Thus, we are not to make Creeds
3) If the Bible doesn't tell us to do a thing, then we are not to do it.
4) Thus alter calls, RA's, dinner of the ground, Christmas cantatas, revivals, wearing a wedding band, and just about everything else is not to be done on the basis that doing those things are not in the bible.

Now... take a deep breath...concentrate...try to be a cut above.



First of all that is not "my" Creed - it comes from the council of Nicaea in the fourth century and that would be a council of THE Christian Church at that time.

Secondly, if you would show me exactly which point(s) in the Creed "...excuse me from believing and obeying the rest of the Bible?" then I can take your criticism and run with it. Otherwise, you just continue posting your meaningless accusations without one shred of evidence to back up anything that you say.

So... why not be intellectually honest for a change and respond to my original post. I'm sure everyone here would LOVE to see that!

Give it a try - you might find that you like it.

WM

I only want to obey Jesus’ teachings, not men. I do not follow Creeds, Creeds that have been revised. I only want the whole word of God.
Is that so hard for you to understand?

 

[WestminsterMan]

Is it a Catholic Creed to make pews and hymnals?

Stop trying to put me down with your skewed opinion.

There you go again. No one is trying to put you down they just want you to logically defend your positions and statements. It's kinda what we do here. I don't agree with a lot of positions on BB - BUT - I respect those who attempt to honestly defend their positions with scripture, history, logic, etc. If you get defensive everytime you're challenged, then you'll be defensive all of the time. It's simply the nature of the beast.

WM

 

[Moriah]

There you go again. No one is trying to put you down they just want you to logically defend your positions and statements. It's kinda what we do here. I don't agree with a lot of positions on BB - BUT - I respect those who attempt to honestly defend their positions with scripture, history, logic, etc. If you get defensive everytime you're challenged, then you'll be defensive all of the time. It's simply the nature of the beast.

WM

Westminister,

Defend the Pope; defend the calling of your brothers 'father.' Defend the making of statues, incensing them and bowing to them. Defend calling Mary a Co-redeemer. Defend the prayers to Mary and the “Saints.” Defend the priests turning the wafer into the real body of Christ. Defend infant baptism.

Revelation 22:11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

 

[Amy.G]

Is it a Catholic Creed to make pews and hymnals?

Stop trying to put me down with your skewed opinion.

Your question makes no sense.

According to your logic:

Creeds are unbiblical because the bible does not command them.

Pews and hymnals are unbiblical because the bible does not command them.


No one is putting you down. I'm challenging your logic.

 

[Moriah]

Your question makes no sense.

According to your logic:

Creeds are unbiblical because the bible does not command them.

Pews and hymnals are unbiblical because the bible does not command them.


No one is putting you down. I'm challenging your logic.

And I am challenging your opinion.

Now the first thing you should do is stop saying I said things that I did not. I did not say pews and hymnals are unbiblical. As for hymnals, it is good to sing hymns and spiritual songs that is what they did in the Bible. As for pews, did they not sit and kneel in the Bible?
I do not go by man-made Creeds. What is so hard to understand about that? Many of the Creeds have been revised, but the Word of God does not change. The Apostles did not make Creeds, nor did they tell us to make them.
I have asked you before, but you do not answer, tell me, what good is your Creed if you do not believe and obey other parts of God's Word? If you tell me you believe in One God, but do something He hates like bow to the works of your hands, then what good is your Creed?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Don't see where Mary "obeyed" God, don't see where God asked Mary if she would like to be the mother of Jesus. Mary "believed" God, but obeying would suggest a choice in the matter. Mary was chosen.

Second, Revelation 12 cannot be about Mary. Mary never fled into the wilderness for 1260 days. This would have to be Israel during the Tribulation.

I hate to put it this way. But you believe Mary was forced to give birth to the incarnation and that she had no choice in this matter? How is that different from rape?

Note what Mary said "I am the handmaid of the Lord, Let it be done according to your word" "let it" suggest allowance and allowance is indicative of choice. She could have just have easily said "I dont want you to do that." At that point would God have used her for the incarnation? I think not.

No God is not a tyrant forcing himself upon us.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Westminister,

Defend the Pope; defend the calling of your brothers 'father.' Defend the making of statues, incensing them and bowing to them. Defend calling Mary a Co-redeemer. Defend the prayers to Mary and the “Saints.” Defend the priests turning the wafer into the real body of Christ. Defend infant baptism.

Revelation 22:11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

Start a thread on each one and I might. BTW, I don't hold to, or practice much of what you are asking for so why would I defend that with which I do not practice? Just sayin...

So, for now stop the doctrinal dance and address my points. Throwing up a barrage of bait and switch distractors just won't get you off of the hook. Thus, I'll ask again...

With which of the nine point(s) in the Creed do you disagree? If so, then why do you disagree with it/them from a biblical standpoint? Personally, I don't think you want to address this because you actually might have to admit that your beliefs align (if ever so loosely) with the CC.

That's a very thin veneer there, Moriah.

WM

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Your last two or three statements in themselves show your lack of knowledge in the meaning of grace. The definition of grace does not come from the English language. It does not come from the Latin language. When we speak of "grace" we go right back to the Greek, from whence the word is used, and we find the word, "Charis." It has nothing to do with Latin. It is the free unmerited favor of God.
The American Tract Society Dictionary defines it this way:
You are wrong in your definition. When you start with wrong definitions, wrong propositions, you end up with wrong conclusions and wrong theology.

Note the American Tract Society is a protestant organization that shows its definition bias. Certainly the Greek that Paul used was χαρις. The English comes from latin so again you are wrong there, however, using the greek form the translation means

It almost always means the power of salvation which finds expression in specific gifts, acts, and spheres and which is even individualized in the charismata —Ernst Käsemann, Commentary on Romans, trans. G. Bromiley (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1980),

Therefore it is not limited to your very limited understanding of only meaning "unmerited favor". You find youself in the same group as this exerpt specifies

extremists have tried to reverse the process and have argued that grace cannot mean anything except favor as an attitude, with results that are equally disastrous from the exegetical standpoint.

And so it is as you have shown.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Well apparently there was in the 4th century.

Um, no. Holy is a name the church gave to it'self.

Well, I don't wish to derail the thread, but scripture is replete with examples to the contrary.

WM

No there isn't. Baptism does not save. And you brought it up, so it is fair game.