The Great Apostasy

[Martin Marprelate]

Amill and premill look for things to get worse and worse[ I can see why they think this] ...but basically
it gives the idea that the gospel cannot overcome evil.

I don't think this is the view of all Amillennalists- at least, it isn't this one's view. The basic Amil view is of the wheat and the tares growing together until reaping time: terrible times in the last days (2 Tim 3:1), but the Gospel going out into all the world (Matt 24:14). And whadd'ya know? That's exactly what we are seeing!

Steve

 

[beameup]

Absolutely, just as the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali saw a bright light.

So, you are stating that Jesus came back already in the 1st Century AD and gathered all the Saints unto himself.

And that prior to that that the "man of sin", the "son of perdition" John of Gischala was revealed.

Subject of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him,

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; vs. 1 & 3

 

[kyredneck]

So, you are stating that Jesus came back already in the 1st Century AD and gathered all the Saints unto himself......

<shock> Yes, I do!:

31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

 

[beameup]

<shock> Yes, I do!:

31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

OK. So, to complete this section of Matthew 24 it states:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. - Mt 24:29 & 30

So, what you are saying is that all the tribes of the earth saw the Son of man [Jesus] return to the earth?

Perhaps you then have some secondary sources (like Josephus) for this event that was witnessed world-wide?

 

[asterisktom]

OK. So, to complete this section of Matthew 24 it states:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. - Mt 24:29 & 30

So, what you are saying is that all the tribes of the earth saw the Son of man [Jesus] return to the earth?

Perhaps you then have some secondary sources (like Josephus) for this event that was witnessed world-wide?

Who needs secondary sources when we have the Primary source Himself saying (Luke 21:21-28) that the believers' redemption was already "drawing near" when their city of Jerusalem was surrounded by armies? We either believe Christ's words here or not.

Did He not say "redemption" and "near" in the very same context?

What kind of redemption did the Jewish believers experience in their own near future - per Christ's solemn promise? According to most futurists scenarios, none.

 

[beameup]

Who needs secondary sources when we have the Primary source Himself saying (Luke 21:21-28) that the believers' redemption was already
"drawing near" when their city of Jerusalem was surrounded by armies?
We either believe Christ's words here or not.

Did He not say "redemption" and "near" in the very same context?

What kind of redemption did the Jewish believers experience in their own near future - per Christ's solemn promise?

So then, Jesus came back in the 1st Century AD and gathered all the Saints in Jerusalem unto himself?

Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation [of Jerusalem] thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:28
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:28
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (in context, vs. 25 refers to "the distress of nations").
Thus Jesus tells us that NATIONS, and not just Jerusalem, would be affected by his coming.

Then you are saying that there is not a shred of evidence of this event recorded in secular history?

 

[kyredneck]

OK. So, to complete this section of Matthew 24 it states:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. - Mt 24:29 & 30

Wow, you're coming right along, a fast learner. These too were to be accomplished before that generation passed away.

 

[asterisktom]

Wow, you're coming right along, a fast learner. These too were to be accomplished before that generation passed away.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't think this is the view of all Amillennalists- at least, it isn't this one's view. The basic Amil view is of the wheat and the tares growing together until reaping time: terrible times in the last days (2 Tim 3:1), but the Gospel going out into all the world (Matt 24:14). And whadd'ya know? That's exactly what we are seeing!

Steve

While I am okay with the amill position...it does not seem as specific as the postmill guys. Hendricksens ...More than Conquerors..is okay...some good points but very general.....Hoekema...things to come.....Waldron...end times made simple..... Cox...Amillenialism today....I have learned things from each one....just still looking!

 

[beameup]

Wow, you're coming right along, a fast learner. These too were to be accomplished before that generation passed away.

Thanks. I hadn't come across your position since the early 1980s when I was witnessing to a co-worker who was of the Bahá'í faith.
The followers of Bahá'u'lláh believe, as you, that all prophecies were completed by 70AD.

 

[kyredneck]

Thanks. I hadn't come across your position since the early 1980s when I was witnessing to a co-worker who was of the Bahá'í faith.
The followers of Bahá'u'lláh believe, as you, that all prophecies were completed by 70AD.

I don't believe that all prophecies were completed by 70AD. But I'm not a dispy either. I believe Christ and the apostles.

 

[convicted1]

I don't think this is the view of all Amillennalists- at least, it isn't this one's view. The basic Amil view is of the wheat and the tares growing together until reaping time: terrible times in the last days (2 Tim 3:1), but the Gospel going out into all the world (Matt 24:14). And whadd'ya know? That's exactly what we are seeing!

Steve

I agree with this statement. I do see things getting worse, but the Gospel will save the true believers. The Wheat and tares will grow together, and then Christ will come and gather the Wheat in His garner, and the tares will be bound, and cast into the fiery furnace of the lake of fire.

 

[beameup]

I don't believe that all prophecies were completed by 70AD. But I'm not a brainwashed dispy either. I believe Christ and the apostles.

Thanks. Having been raised in a Jehovah's Witness home when they still used the King James Bible, I was taught that Christ returned "secretly" in 1914.
At any rate, as you state, Christ returned in 70AD and it is the same as the JW's position of Christ's return being undetected, and hence, unrecorded.

As far as prophecy is concerned (or doctrine in general), I was "brainwashed" early on in the Jehovah's Witness' prior to being saved; and so, I am more like
a Berean or a "doubting Thomas" and not at all subject to "deception".

 

[kyredneck]

Thanks. Having been raised in a Jehovah's Witness home when they still used the King James Bible, I was taught that Christ returned "secretly" in 1914.
At any rate, as you state, Christ returned in 70AD and it is the same as the JW's position of Christ's return being undetected, and hence, unrecorded.

As far as prophecy is concerned (or doctrine in general), I was "brainwashed" early on in the Jehovah's Witness' prior to being saved; and so, I am more like
a Berean or a "doubting Thomas" and not at all subject to "deception".

You quoted me before I made my edit, sorry.

I assure you there was nothing 'secret' about His coming with vengeance on that generation. Josephus states several times that the Jews knew that God had turned against them.

Just as there was a delay of several years between David's anointing as king and his actually becoming king of Israel, so was there a delay with Christ coming into His kingdom. Once the house of Saul was vanquished the house of David came to power. Once the temple was destroyed and apostate Judaism removed from it's once prominent position Christ officially came into His kingdom and His saints to reign with Him:

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power. Mk 9:1

Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me. This saying therefore went forth among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, that he should not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Jn 21:22- 23

 

[beameup]

You quoted me before I made my edit, sorry.

Once the temple was destroyed and apostate Judaism removed from it's once prominent position Christ officially came into His kingdom and His saints to reign with Him:

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power. Mk 9:1

OK. So, then your position is that we are now in the Kingdom and the saints (Jews) that were in Jerusalem in 70AD are reigning with Him.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. - Luke 21:20
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. - Luke 21:28
In context of passage Luke 21:20-28

Is it your belief then that the Jewish believers that Jesus came to rescue in Jerusalem in 70AD numbered 144,000?

 

[ACF]

Iconolast,

You said earlier in a single line response to my post, that you believe the Great Apostasy occurred prior to AD 70.

I asked when you thought Revelations was written, and you replied that some think it was before 70 AD, and others think it was somewhere around AD 90-95, or something like that.

Yet, you did not answer the question as to when "you" thought it was written, or if you did I must have missed it.

The conversation has shifted to include the broader topics of Amil and Premil, so I wanted to bring it back on track in case you missed my question, or the reason I offered about why I think it occurred at the later date.

So, I have told you what first came into my mind about why I think Revelations was written at the later period.

What do you think about it?

When do you think Revelations was written?

With all the traffic on this thread, perhaps you had missed my post, or I missed your response to it.

So, here it is again.

Iconolast,

Certainly, the insane Nero was a man of sin.

As Revelations is a book of phophesy, and not a historical account, the time of it's writing has to be determined prior to 70 AD to fit within the theory that John foretold events of that time.

Were I you, I would be very careful of such a theory, as there is preponderance of evidence suggesting it simply is not so.

The first thing I thought to say, which is often the best thing to say, is one reason I choose not to believe the theory that Revelations was written in 64 AD is a simple one.

It begins because of the teaching of a first century church leader named "Cerinthus", whose church existed about thirty years after that date.

God preserves His truths in ways that do not require your vigorous defense, though there is nothing wrong with your making the attempt, but only when it is called for.

Thank you for being more civil this time.

I see also that you use the words "dispsy" and "dispensationalist".

I have had many lengthy and sometimes interesting, discussions with other "dispensationalists" that said they believed that the book of Revelations dealt only with events prior to 70 AD, and am wondering if you would care to share more of your beliefs about things like this.

 

[kyredneck]

OK. So, then your position is that we are now in the Kingdom

Yes.

..and the saints (Jews)

Concerning the saints of the kingdom:

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2:15,16

Methinks you need to come to grips with this marvelous truth.

...that were in Jerusalem in 70AD are reigning with Him.

????

His saints living on earth and in heaven are all reigning with Him now.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. - Luke 21:20
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. - Luke 21:28
In context of passage Luke 21:20-28

Is it your belief then that the Jewish believers that Jesus came to rescue in Jerusalem in 70AD numbered 144,000?

See: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63301

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconolast,

You said earlier in a single line response to my post, that you believe the Great Apostasy occurred prior to AD 70.

I asked when you thought Revelations was written, and you replied that some think it was before 70 AD, and others think it was somewhere around AD 90-95, or something like that.

Yet, you did not answer the question as to when "you" thought it was written, or if you did I must have missed it.

The conversation has shifted to include the broader topics of Amil and Premil, so I wanted to bring it back on track in case you missed my question, or the reason I offered about why I think it occurred at the later date.

So, I have told you what first came into my mind about why I think Revelations was written at the later period.

What do you think about it?

When do you think Revelations was written?

With all the traffic on this thread, perhaps you had missed my post, or I missed your response to it.

So, here it is again.






I see also that you use the words "dispsy" and "dispensationalist".

I have had many lengthy and sometimes interesting, discussions with other "dispensationalists" that said they believed that the book of Revelations dealt only with events prior to 70 AD, and am wondering if you would care to share more of your beliefs about things like this.

ACF...
Some have put forth the date of 64ad

one reason is that John is told to measure the temple;
Revelation 11

1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
After 70 ad it would be hard to get that measurement:wavey::thumbs:
I believe that the church is the rebuilt temple now....

Also...if the temple was destroyed by 70ad.....did you ever wonder why John would not make reference to it??? Or John does not seem to give a specific warning to watch out for continued attacks....it is like in chapter oneto three a warning to local churches at that time.

ACF....at first I was taught the 95 ad date.....but that was by premill men ,who did not have any interest in exploring the question....so I read it in the books and just went with it.

Although Revelation does contain some events that are still future and some ongoing...like rev 12 describing redemptive history...with Satan opposing God

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Also...we have the White throne Judgement on the last day,and the eternal state before us.

Instead of Revelation being a prophecy secret book or key to unfold the antichrist and false prophet.10 nation confederecy,daniels little horn, the antichrist breaking a "covenant" after 3.5 yrs I now see the book written primarily to equip the early saints to go trhough that 1 century persecution,and by application teaching future generations to be able to endure also.

primarily though...I believe as it's title states....it is a Revelation or unveiling of the Lamb that was Slain ascendingDan7 to the throne and ruling and reigning as our Great ,Prophet ,Priest ,and King, Eternally interceding for us.as is described in the Book of Hebrews.

for example; consider this ACF;

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

25See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29For our God is a consuming fire.

ACF......think of it this way....the second generation of christians is being saved.They have never seen Jesus as the Apostles ,and the 500 eyewitnesses did. they are going to be persecuted unto death .
What could ,or what does God do to comfort them???
he gives John a supernatural vision, a glimpse into heaven to be able to tell them and us exactly ....
Where is Jesus now? What is he doing? Is he still in control?
Is he coming back?

I now see revelation and hebrews given to answer this question !:thumbs:2

You see he clearly tells them...he has spoken on earth Hebrews 1:1-3...but now refuse not Him who speaks from Heaven...[through the Apostolic word}3

Since studying Hebrews and revelation this way....and understanding at least this much...I currently as time permits...comb through the OT prophets looking to see what is being fulfilled in our day.

ACF.....let me know if you find this an interesting and plausible understanding,and if you can build on it for me i would be greatful.

i am a bit rusty but I can still teach the premill teaching, and I do not shut the radio off if John Macarthur comes On...he is excellent....


In light of this...let me offer an example of what I mean...this passage in Joel sounds like the activity in revelation 14-18 the sickle, a harvest, and then the Lord roars out of Zion and Jerusalem like the Hebrews passage speaks of. Joel two is quoted in acts 2:16-21....then comes Joel 3....

Peter says this is THAT.....he does not say...this is like that..He says this is THAT....no double fulfillment necessary....Do you see what I am saying?

Even if you have not looked at it this way before....re-read Hebrews 10-12,revelation 6-19...together....with this idea in mind.....let me know;
here is a link for an early date possibility;
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12180421449
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=12180421531
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=1218042165

http://christeternalchristianchurch.com/learningactivity39.htm
http://www.biblecenter.de/bibel/studien/e-std310.php

 

[convicted1]

Brother Iconoclast,


Do you see Jesus setting His Kingdom up here, which I think the historical premills believe(?), or that this world is destroyed with Jesus' second coming?

I am amill, so you know what I believe....

 

[Iconoclast]

Brother Iconoclast,


Do you see Jesus setting His Kingdom up here, which I think the historical premills believe(?), or that this world is destroyed with Jesus' second coming?

I am amill, so you know what I believe....

Willis,
i am very dogmatic about the five points.On endtimes I am okay with whatever Jesus does. I know he is Lord and Christ now....I know he is ruling in the midst of His enemies now...from Heaven as per my previous post.

As long as brothers know and understand he is returning bodily and physically and we will see Him face to face i am okay with whatever timeline God wants to use...as I know all true believers are ..AMEN:wavey:

I have in the last 6-7 years tried to read the best men ,and sermons on each view:thumbs: in the mean time..while end times are very important and exciting...we are given a primary task to worship and serve the Lord in Holiness. We are to beg God in prayer to help us mortify sin...so we can be effective witnesses to the lost and dying all around us....
Brother ...each person that God brings in our path is a sinner who needs the salvation of God. I view each opportunity to speak about the precious blood,as a life line to one who might be one of the multitude that Jesus came to save.....[yes willis...one of the elect:wavey:...because I do not know who is and who isn't}
So i will explain that God translates sinners who he saves out of the kingdom of satan.....into the Kingdom of God...two seeds. two Adam's....to destinies....life eternal/second death....
knowing all the endtime views helps...but when talking to an unsaved I keep it more general [white throne judgement]and address the sin and death question...then provide the Life that God gives as the God given remedy.....2cor 5:17:thumbs: