The Great Apostasy

I don't think this is the view of all Amillennalists- at least, it isn't this one's view. The basic Amil view is of the wheat and the tares growing together until reaping time: terrible times in the last days (2 Tim 3:1), but the Gospel going out into all the world (Matt 24:14). And whadd'ya know? That's exactly what we are seeing!

Steve

 

So, you are stating that Jesus came back already in the 1st Century AD and gathered all the Saints unto himself.

And that prior to that that the "man of sin", the "son of perdition" John of Gischala was revealed.

Subject of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him,

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; vs. 1 & 3

 

<shock> Yes, I do!:

31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

 

OK. So, to complete this section of Matthew 24 it states:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. - Mt 24:29 & 30

So, what you are saying is that all the tribes of the earth saw the Son of man [Jesus] return to the earth?

Perhaps you then have some secondary sources (like Josephus) for this event that was witnessed world-wide?

 

Who needs secondary sources when we have the Primary source Himself saying (Luke 21:21-28) that the believers' redemption was already "drawing near" when their city of Jerusalem was surrounded by armies? We either believe Christ's words here or not.

Did He not say "redemption" and "near" in the very same context?

What kind of redemption did the Jewish believers experience in their own near future - per Christ's solemn promise? According to most futurists scenarios, none.

 

So then, Jesus came back in the 1st Century AD and gathered all the Saints in Jerusalem unto himself?

Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation [of Jerusalem] thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:28
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:28
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (in context, vs. 25 refers to "the distress of nations").
Thus Jesus tells us that NATIONS, and not just Jerusalem, would be affected by his coming.

Then you are saying that there is not a shred of evidence of this event recorded in secular history?

 

Wow, you're coming right along, a fast learner. These too were to be accomplished before that generation passed away.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

While I am okay with the amill position...it does not seem as specific as the postmill guys. Hendricksens ...More than Conquerors..is okay...some good points but very general.....Hoekema...things to come.....Waldron...end times made simple..... Cox...Amillenialism today....I have learned things from each one....just still looking!

 

Thanks. I hadn't come across your position since the early 1980s when I was witnessing to a co-worker who was of the Bahá'í faith.
The followers of Bahá'u'lláh believe, as you, that all prophecies were completed by 70AD.

 

I don't believe that all prophecies were completed by 70AD. But I'm not a dispy either. I believe Christ and the apostles.

 

I agree with this statement. I do see things getting worse, but the Gospel will save the true believers. The Wheat and tares will grow together, and then Christ will come and gather the Wheat in His garner, and the tares will be bound, and cast into the fiery furnace of the lake of fire.

 

Thanks. Having been raised in a Jehovah's Witness home when they still used the King James Bible, I was taught that Christ returned "secretly" in 1914.
At any rate, as you state, Christ returned in 70AD and it is the same as the JW's position of Christ's return being undetected, and hence, unrecorded.

As far as prophecy is concerned (or doctrine in general), I was "brainwashed" early on in the Jehovah's Witness' prior to being saved; and so, I am more like
a Berean or a "doubting Thomas" and not at all subject to "deception".

 

You quoted me before I made my edit, sorry.

I assure you there was nothing 'secret' about His coming with vengeance on that generation. Josephus states several times that the Jews knew that God had turned against them.

Just as there was a delay of several years between David's anointing as king and his actually becoming king of Israel, so was there a delay with Christ coming into His kingdom. Once the house of Saul was vanquished the house of David came to power. Once the temple was destroyed and apostate Judaism removed from it's once prominent position Christ officially came into His kingdom and His saints to reign with Him:

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64

And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There are some here of them that stand by, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God come with power. Mk 9:1

Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me. This saying therefore went forth among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, that he should not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Jn 21:22- 23

 

OK. So, then your position is that we are now in the Kingdom and the saints (Jews) that were in Jerusalem in 70AD are reigning with Him.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. - Luke 21:20
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. - Luke 21:28
In context of passage Luke 21:20-28

Is it your belief then that the Jewish believers that Jesus came to rescue in Jerusalem in 70AD numbered 144,000?

 

Yes.

Concerning the saints of the kingdom:

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2:15,16

Methinks you need to come to grips with this marvelous truth.

????

His saints living on earth and in heaven are all reigning with Him now.

See: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63301

 

ACF...
Some have put forth the date of 64ad

one reason is that John is told to measure the temple;
Revelation 11

1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
After 70 ad it would be hard to get that measurement:wavey::thumbs:
I believe that the church is the rebuilt temple now....

Also...if the temple was destroyed by 70ad.....did you ever wonder why John would not make reference to it??? Or John does not seem to give a specific warning to watch out for continued attacks....it is like in chapter oneto three a warning to local churches at that time.

ACF....at first I was taught the 95 ad date.....but that was by premill men ,who did not have any interest in exploring the question....so I read it in the books and just went with it.

Although Revelation does contain some events that are still future and some ongoing...like rev 12 describing redemptive history...with Satan opposing God

Also...we have the White throne Judgement on the last day,and the eternal state before us.

Instead of Revelation being a prophecy secret book or key to unfold the antichrist and false prophet.10 nation confederecy,daniels little horn, the antichrist breaking a "covenant" after 3.5 yrs I now see the book written primarily to equip the early saints to go trhough that 1 century persecution,and by application teaching future generations to be able to endure also.

primarily though...I believe as it's title states....it is a Revelation or unveiling of the Lamb that was Slain ascendingDan7 to the throne and ruling and reigning as our Great ,Prophet ,Priest ,and King, Eternally interceding for us.as is described in the Book of Hebrews.

for example; consider this ACF;

ACF......think of it this way....the second generation of christians is being saved.They have never seen Jesus as the Apostles ,and the 500 eyewitnesses did. they are going to be persecuted unto death .
What could ,or what does God do to comfort them???
he gives John a supernatural vision, a glimpse into heaven to be able to tell them and us exactly ....
Where is Jesus now? What is he doing? Is he still in control?
Is he coming back?

I now see revelation and hebrews given to answer this question !:thumbs:2

You see he clearly tells them...he has spoken on earth Hebrews 1:1-3...but now refuse not Him who speaks from Heaven...[through the Apostolic word}3

Since studying Hebrews and revelation this way....and understanding at least this much...I currently as time permits...comb through the OT prophets looking to see what is being fulfilled in our day.

ACF.....let me know if you find this an interesting and plausible understanding,and if you can build on it for me i would be greatful.

i am a bit rusty but I can still teach the premill teaching, and I do not shut the radio off if John Macarthur comes On...he is excellent....


In light of this...let me offer an example of what I mean...this passage in Joel sounds like the activity in revelation 14-18 the sickle, a harvest, and then the Lord roars out of Zion and Jerusalem like the Hebrews passage speaks of. Joel two is quoted in acts 2:16-21....then comes Joel 3....

Peter says this is THAT.....he does not say...this is like that..He says this is THAT....no double fulfillment necessary....Do you see what I am saying?

Even if you have not looked at it this way before....re-read Hebrews 10-12,revelation 6-19...together....with this idea in mind.....let me know;
here is a link for an early date possibility;
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12180421449
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=12180421531
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=1218042165

http://christeternalchristianchurch.com/learningactivity39.htm
http://www.biblecenter.de/bibel/studien/e-std310.php

 

Brother Iconoclast,


Do you see Jesus setting His Kingdom up here, which I think the historical premills believe(?), or that this world is destroyed with Jesus' second coming?

I am amill, so you know what I believe....

 

Willis,
i am very dogmatic about the five points.On endtimes I am okay with whatever Jesus does. I know he is Lord and Christ now....I know he is ruling in the midst of His enemies now...from Heaven as per my previous post.

As long as brothers know and understand he is returning bodily and physically and we will see Him face to face i am okay with whatever timeline God wants to use...as I know all true believers are ..AMEN:wavey:

I have in the last 6-7 years tried to read the best men ,and sermons on each view:thumbs: in the mean time..while end times are very important and exciting...we are given a primary task to worship and serve the Lord in Holiness. We are to beg God in prayer to help us mortify sin...so we can be effective witnesses to the lost and dying all around us....
Brother ...each person that God brings in our path is a sinner who needs the salvation of God. I view each opportunity to speak about the precious blood,as a life line to one who might be one of the multitude that Jesus came to save.....[yes willis...one of the elect:wavey:...because I do not know who is and who isn't}
So i will explain that God translates sinners who he saves out of the kingdom of satan.....into the Kingdom of God...two seeds. two Adam's....to destinies....life eternal/second death....
knowing all the endtime views helps...but when talking to an unsaved I keep it more general [white throne judgement]and address the sin and death question...then provide the Life that God gives as the God given remedy.....2cor 5:17:thumbs: