Who are the elect?

[Forest]

Jesus death was sufficient to pay for the sins of all, but ONLY those whom have that grace of God applied unto their behalf will actually benefit from it!

MUST leann to define "all" biblically!

I John 2:2, John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19 according to Thayer's Greek translation of the word "world" means 8) any aggregate or general collection of particals of any sort. a)a) used of believers only. I believe that you have the cart before the horse. 2 Thes 2:13 says his beloved brethren were chosen from the begining, Eph 1:4, According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world. We all think the other guy has been sold a bill of goods, but those have no contradicting scriptures are closer to the truth.

 

[Forest]

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:


Would God's grace have to be applied for that to take place?

When is the fulness of times and does it have a beginning and end?

What is all in the context of that verse?

Is the word things understood or actually in the Greek?

If you are saying that man has to take some kind of action so that God will apply his grace, then that would not be grace (free gift).

 

[Forest]

Good point. I agree completly.

If Pride is all you see in Dan 4:35, then you are missing the whole point of the scripture which is that God accomplishes all his will and no one can stop him.

 

[kyredneck]

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Seems pretty clear Isarel isn't the elect........

:thumbsup: Excellent. Thank you!

But if a Jew accepts Jesus as the Messiah....

The only 'accepting' I see in the scriptures is here:

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph 1:6

....then that makes him Christian......

Well, yea, but it's Christians who are the REAL Jews, the bona fide elect:

for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3:3

 

[Van]

Reply to fiction

Jesus death was sufficient to pay for the sins of all, but ONLY those whom have that grace of God applied unto their behalf will actually benefit from it!

MUST leann to define "all" biblically!

More weasel words that sound biblical, but hide limited atonement where Christ only died for the previously chosen elect. Total fiction.

Christ died for the whole world, all mankind, not some previously chosen out of mankind before mankind existed.

Why would God desire all men to be saved, if He really desired some men to be saved? Calvinism claims Paul's inspired word choices are so fuzzy they must be redefined to fit their doctrine. Fiddlesticks.

 

[Van]

Reply to fiction

I John 2:2, John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, 2 Cor 5:19 according to Thayer's Greek translation of the word "world" means 8) any aggregate or general collection of particals of any sort. a)a) used of believers only. I believe that you have the cart before the horse. 2 Thes 2:13 says his beloved brethren were chosen from the begining, Eph 1:4, According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world. We all think the other guy has been sold a bill of goods, but those have no contradicting scriptures are closer to the truth.

Calvinism redefines the meaning of words so they can pick and choose the meaning to fit their doctrine. How does John use world? He uses it in only two ways, to refer to fallen mankind, or to refer to the corrupt system of fallen mankind. That is it. Those two definitions will fit in every usage in John.

Were the elect chosen individually before the foundation of the world? That is what Calvinism claims. That is the cart. Now where is the horse. Oh, we were individually chosen "from" the beginning, not before. Which is it?

Forrest, you have been sold a bill of goods that does not stand up to study. From the beginning is not the same as at the beginning or in the beginning or before the foundation of the world.

Lets leave aside that the from the beginning does not refer to from the creation week, but rather from the beginning of the New Covenant. Even if your view was correct, (from the beginning referring to the creation week) individual election before the creation week still does not mesh with 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

So you are right, the view with no contradicting scriptures is the one that is true. Yours is shot full of contradictions, mine is consistent with all scripture, contextually considered.

Your view has to say from means before. That is a contradiction. Mine says before means before and from means from, no contradiction.

And how about James 2:5, where God chooses those who are poor in the eyes of the world. There had to exist in the world of fallen mankind in order for fallen mankind to view them as poor, but God views them as rich in faith and heirs to the promise He made to those who love Him. How could they love Him before they were created. They could not. Calvinism does not mesh with scripture and creates a continuous string of contradictions.

I told you about hardening the hearts of those unregenerates in Romans 11. Therefore your Calvinist doctrine of total spiritual inability is contradicted. I could go on and on.
You have been sold a bill of Goods.

 

[Alive in Christ]

some good information for all the calvinists...

OK. I am going to post the CONCLUSION of this material 1st, because it serves as a good "summary" of the entire work.

But I would encourage the calivinists here to click on the link and peruse all of the material. It is very good.

Here goes...

Conclusion

Calvinism is one more illustration of the futility of systematic theology. God's truths, particularly relating to soteriology, are too lofty to be put into concise formulae. The Five Points of Calvinism oversimplify the profound truths of God. They derive their force from proof-texts rather than the general tenor of Scripture.

More than that, the doctrines frequently create a spirit of division, elitism and theological snobbery. The system erects walls between believers. It creates a class of Christians within the church general who are supposedly part of a worthy "inner circle."

Many Calvinists read nothing but Reformed titles, hence these brethren seldom learn new perspectives. On the contrary, they are continually reaffirming their own "theological correctness." Such authors such as A. W. Pink, the Puritans, John Murray and such publishing companies as Banner of Truth become the sole staple for many. I say without intending offense that such exclusiveness differs little from that of Jehovah's Witnesses or other authoritarian groups.

Of course, I do not intend to paint all Calvinists with this brush. Many are thinkers who read outside literature, even Arminian literature. But the overarching trend in this tradition - a tradition of which I was once a part - is often one of narrow-mindedness and doctrinal superiority. As we have seen, the Scriptures give no warrant for such bigotry. The average Calvinist may be amazed at just how weak his system is when scrutinized in the light of revealed truth.

May our brethren see fit to adopt a Berean spirit (Acts 17:11) and honestly rethink their Calvinism. We would urge them to, for a time, lay aside the commentaries of Calvin and Gill, the theology of Warfield and Hodge. With an open Bible and mind, may they take a second look at the so-called "doctrines of grace" to see if they truly are the doctrines of Christ.

Link for the rest...

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html

 

[Forest]

Calvinism redefines the meaning of words so they can pick and choose the meaning to fit their doctrine. How does John use world? He uses it in only two ways, to refer to fallen mankind, or to refer to the corrupt system of fallen mankind. That is it. Those two definitions will fit in every usage in John.

Were the elect chosen individually before the foundation of the world? That is what Calvinism claims. That is the cart. Now where is the horse. Oh, we were individually chosen "from" the beginning, not before. Which is it?

Forrest, you have been sold a bill of goods that does not stand up to study. From the beginning is not the same as at the beginning or in the beginning or before the foundation of the world.

Lets leave aside that the from the beginning does not refer to from the creation week, but rather from the beginning of the New Covenant. Even if your view was correct, (from the beginning referring to the creation week) individual election before the creation week still does not mesh with 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

So you are right, the view with no contradicting scriptures is the one that is true. Yours is shot full of contradictions, mine is consistent with all scripture, contextually considered.

Your view has to say from means before. That is a contradiction. Mine says before means before and from means from, no contradiction.

And how about James 2:5, where God chooses those who are poor in the eyes of the world. There had to exist in the world of fallen mankind in order for fallen mankind to view them as poor, but God views them as rich in faith and heirs to the promise He made to those who love Him. How could they love Him before they were created. They could not. Calvinism does not mesh with scripture and creates a continuous string of contradictions.

I told you about hardening the hearts of those unregenerates in Romans 11. Therefore your Calvinist doctrine of total spiritual inability is contradicted. I could go on and on.
You have been sold a bill of Goods.

You use the word "world" to say that God wants all mankind to be saved eternally. If He does want all mankind to be saved eternally, how does that theory harmonise with Dan 4:35 that says God accomplishes all his will? How does this make your theory conscistent with all scriptures? Those in Rom 11 whos hearts he hardened were his regenerated elect. Israel is a type and shadow of God's elect people, God even changed Jacob's name to Israel, Gen 32:28. What cubbie hole of yours do you put 2 Tim 1:9 in, Who hath (past tense) saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given (past tense) us in Christ Jesus before the world began?

 

[Forest]

OK. I am going to post the CONCLUSION of this material 1st, because it serves as a good "summary" of the entire work.

But I would encourage the calivinists here to click on the link and peruse all of the material. It is very good.

Here goes...




Link for the rest...

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html

I don't study from other man's interpretation of the scriptures. I believe that scripture proves scripture. None can really understand scripture unless the Holy Spirit reveales it unto them.

 

[percho]

If you are saying that man has to take some kind of action so that God will apply his grace, then that would not be grace (free gift).

I didn't say a word about man doing a thing. Matt 19:26 With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

I am not a Calvinist, however I believe the word of God teaches salvation by election of God with God choosing who and the time of election. It is obvious all are not being elected presently.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Some are presently being called yet they die. In Christ I might add or as was said of Abraham in faith not having received the promises until this present time.

Ex 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. Hebrews 11:29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry [land]: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

The salvation of the Lord was the faith/faithfulness of the Lord to deliver them. It was not by their faith they crossed over. They were whining and crying to Moses and accusing him for bringing them out of Egypt to die. I would venture to say the Egyptians had more faith than did the children of Israel when they entered into the sea. A few weeks later these same people would be making a golden calf to worship.

For by grace are ye saved through (the) faith;

Any the faith you may have would be Christ in you the hope of glory.
Romans 8:24 YLT for in hope we were saved, and hope beheld is not hope; for what any one doth behold, why also doth he hope for [it]?
The hope of salvation attained of for you came about by the grace of God the Father through the faith of Jesus the Christ.

Hebrews 5:9 YLT and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,
KJV And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Become. How?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Brother Forest...

You posted this...

I don't study from other man's interpretation of the scriptures. I believe that scripture proves scripture. None can really understand scripture unless the Holy Spirit reveales it unto them.

Well..You probably dont know what you just did.

You just authenticated the truthfullness of some of of the authors points.

He sad this...

More than that, the doctrines frequently create a spirit of division, elitism and theological snobbery. The system erects walls between believers. It creates a class of Christians within the church general who are supposedly part of a worthy "inner circle."

And this...

Many Calvinists read nothing but Reformed titles, hence these brethren seldom learn new perspectives. On the contrary, they are continually reaffirming their own "theological correctness." Such authors such as A. W. Pink, the Puritans, John Murray and such publishing companies as Banner of Truth become the sole staple for many. I say without intending offense that such exclusiveness differs little from that of Jehovah's Witnesses or other authoritarian groups.

And this...

But the overarching trend in this tradition - a tradition of which I was once a part - is often one of narrow-mindedness and doctrinal superiority. As we have seen, the Scriptures give no warrant for such bigotry.

And you have, unfortunetly, just identifide yourself as ((("Exhibit A"))).

 

[Iconoclast]

AIC,

Many Calvinists read nothing but Reformed titles, hence these brethren seldom learn new perspectives. On the contrary, they are continually reaffirming their own "theological correctness." Such authors such as A. W. Pink, the Puritans, John Murray and such publishing companies as Banner of Truth become the sole staple for many. I say without intending offense that such exclusiveness differs little from that of Jehovah's Witnesses or other authoritarian groups.

Steve jones , or you and those like you cannot even understand these writings much less offer a refutation!

How much John Murray have you read? have you even read any of the teaching? or are you just parroting with this person writes?

you do not even have to answer i know already....


pick out a chapter from Murray on redemption ,accomplished and applied...and offer a refutation. I could use a laugh:laugh::laugh:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

Steve jones , or you and those like you cannot even understand these writings much less offer a refutation!

How much John Murray have you read? have you even read any of the teaching? or are you just parroting with this person writes?

you do not even have to answer i know already....


pick out a chapter from Murray on redemption ,accomplished and applied...and offer a refutation. I could use a laugh

your post is just silly. Thats all you have?? Failed and flimsy attempts at insults?

And regarding your comment about how much calvinism material I have read, let me remind you..you may have forgotten..I was, years ago, a full fledged 5 point calvinist.

Thank God I came to my senses. :godisgood:

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...



your post is just silly. Thats all you have?? Failed and flimsy attempts at insults?

And regarding your comment about how much calvinism material I have read, let me remind you..you may have forgotten..I was, years ago, a full fledged 5 point calvinist.

Thank God I came to my senses. :godisgood:

AIC....

What is silly is for anyone to ridicule Professor Murray. I cannot sit by and watch people just ignore gifted persons as if they have nothing to say.

Do you want me to post a section or two from Professor Murray...that you can correct...since you have gone past the teaching?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

What is silly is for anyone to ridicule Professor Murray. I cannot sit by and watch people just ignore gifted persons as if they have nothing to say.

Do you want me to post a section or two from Professor Murray...that you can correct...since you have gone past the teaching?

Honestly, Iconoclast...it would be a waste of YOUR time.

Regarding calvinism, I was fooled once. I cant be fooled again.

If you like your calvinism..if it helps you get through the day, and it gives you the "warm and fuzzies"...have at it. Enjoy.

But as for me, I have no interest in fairie tales. I much prefer scriptural truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...



Honestly, Iconoclast...it would be a waste of YOUR time.

Regarding calvinism, I was fooled once. I cant be fooled again.

If you like your calvinism..if it helps you get through the day, and it gives you the "warm and fuzzies"...have at it. Enjoy.

But as for me, I have no interest in fairie tales. I much prefer scriptural truth.

:laugh: Yeah...you were a calvinist ,like I have a full head of hair.If you do not believe the the teaching you do not have scriptural truth.
I cannot take you that serious AIC....your posts are a bit on the "light side':laugh: