IFB compared to Baptist churches

[glfredrick]

Sounds like you've condemned them before finding out if they actually fit your pre-conceived notion.

Nope... Like I said, until, they are welcome with open arms. It is just that their stated doctrine is precisely what we are discussing here and it is only a matter of time before they come upstairs to take up with we heathens (who are giving them a home when they had none before).

 

[glfredrick]

My first church had a misture of KJVO and peopel who were not. After being there awhile (after I began a discipleship group among the leaders) I gave a sermon on how Jesus led. I told the people that Jesus had followers. Leaders always have followers and if there are not any followers then they are just taking a walk. The proof of their leadership is found in the disciples they make. Discipleship is not done just through words but it is a hands on process. After that sermon it essentially killed the KJVO influence. The only influence they had earlier is by the noise they made but not one of them ever reached anyone. People who do not make disciples can only influence by the words. If their words and actions do not agree then they are nothing more than an empty bag with nothing in it. (An empty bag makes the most noise). If they have no followers then their deception of leadership is obvious. If they are not reaching people their efforts are nothing. When one of them confronted me about the translation I used I told him the Greek NT. He never said another word. Later when another confronted me about sharing my faith with something other than the KJV I told him that I was not against the KJV and to use it to win the community to Jesus. He never reach anyone while he was in the church. I made the issue about reaching people and making disciples rather than translations. After about one year all of them took a job several hundred miles away. God took care of the divisive.

We had a lady in the church who preferred her KJV and she reached many. She had memorized a lot scripture from her Bible and would use her Bible when she read. She was a godly woman who sought to reach people for Jesus. Quite a number of ladies came to Christ through her ministry.

I have a couple of influential KJVO folks in my congregation. We've been teaching on the Bible on Wednesday nights. Conversation has been animated and the typical fallacies about comparing everything else to the KJV have cropped up. So far I have been able to teach beyond the fallacies, but I expect them to return next week.

Last thing I need is someone else to add fuel to that fire, and if a TRANSLATION is fire, then it is not of God (or not any longer!).

 

[Don]

Nope... Like I said, until, they are welcome with open arms. It is just that their stated doctrine is precisely what we are discussing here and it is only a matter of time before they come upstairs to take up with we heathens (who are giving them a home when they had none before).

In other words, you already expect them to act a certain way; so my observation stands. You're already expecting them to behave that way, and are preparing yourself for them to behave that way. You've already condemned them for actions you expect them to take.

I pray that they surprise you; BUT, if it turns out as you expect, I'll commiserate with you instead.

 

[gb93433]

In other words, you already expect them to act a certain way; so my observation stands.

God expects them to act in a certain way too. They are not to be of the Devil by being divisive .

 

[Don]

God expects them to act in a certain way too. They are not to be of the Devil by being divisive .

Can you show me, from GLFred's posts, where these people he's described have been divisive?

My claim is that he hasn't provided information that shows they're being divisive; but he's expecting them to be divisive. He's already made a judgment about them that he hasn't provided any proof for. So going only by the words he's provided, he's already condemned them for actions they haven't committed.

Does that sound fair to you?

 

[glfredrick]

Can you show me, from GLFred's posts, where these people he's described have been divisive?

My claim is that he hasn't provided information that shows they're being divisive; but he's expecting them to be divisive. He's already made a judgment about them that he hasn't provided any proof for. So going only by the words he's provided, he's already condemned them for actions they haven't committed.

Does that sound fair to you?

Very clear, except that you are arguing for me and I'm not saying what you think. I am saying that the POTENTIAL is there, based on the actions of any number of other IFB persons that I have worked with, debated, and otherwise engaged over my years in the faith.

As long as there is only potential, I am good to go. If that potential becomes realized then I am prepared to act.

Now go and be angry and legalistic with someone else before you prove my point all by yourself.

 

[gb93433]

Can you show me, from GLFred's posts, where these people he's described have been divisive?

My claim is that he hasn't provided information that shows they're being divisive; but he's expecting them to be divisive. He's already made a judgment about them that he hasn't provided any proof for. So going only by the words he's provided, he's already condemned them for actions they haven't committed.

If it looks and smells like a skunk then most likely it is.

Some people are able to discern spirits very well while others are completely blind even after explanation.

Sounds to me from one of his posts that they have been already working on some in his congregation.

Scripture says to be on guard against the wolves. Some will change and repent but others will not.


Acts 20:28-30, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Romans 16:17-20 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting. For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Titus 3:9-11 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Titus 1:13-16 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

Ephesians 5:6-12, Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

2 John 1:7-11 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting; for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

Titus 3:9-11
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

 

[Don]

Very clear, except that you are arguing for me and I'm not saying what you think. I am saying that the POTENTIAL is there, based on the actions of any number of other IFB persons that I have worked with, debated, and otherwise engaged over my years in the faith.

As long as there is only potential, I am good to go. If that potential becomes realized then I am prepared to act.

Now go and be angry and legalistic with someone else before you prove my point all by yourself.

"Angry and legalistic." Nice name calling. Got anything to actually back it up?

 

[Don]

If it looks and smells like a skunk then most likely it is.

Some people are able to discern spirits very well while others are completely blind even after explanation.

Sounds to me from one of his posts that they have been already working on some in his congregation.

So you're able to discern something about people you haven't met, don't know, and don't actually know anything about -- other than what you've read from someone else on the internet. Maybe you know GLF personally; maybe you don't.

But you're ready to condemn a group of people based on what you've read here -- which didn't indicate any divisive actions at all. With a further admission from the author that he's basing his concerns on pre-conceived notions based on others, not the ones he's actually in contact with.

And I'm the one being called legalistic?

Scripture says to be on guard against the wolves. Some will change and repent but others will not.

Yep; it also says to judge ourselves first.

 

[gb93433]

"Angry and legalistic." Nice name calling. Got anything to actually back it up?

People who are not able to discern spirits are not able even after a solid explanation with examples of the behavior.

 

[Don]

People who are not able to discern spirits are not able even after a solid explanation with examples of the behavior.

Have you seen solid examples of the people GLF is talking about? If not, then what, exactly, are you trying to convince me of?

 

[gb93433]

So you're able to discern something about people you haven't met, don't know, and don't actually know anything about -- other than what you've read from someone else on the internet. Maybe you know GLF personally; maybe you don't.

So what is your point? Do you just like to argue? Do you not believe the person on the field? I have been able to be in a church for only a few minutes and detect that there is a problem and who it is without ever meeting them.

Yep; it also says to judge ourselves first.

People who do not have the gift of discernment will often have the same response as you. I have experienced that a number of times from the blind.

 

[gb93433]

Have you seen solid examples of the people GLF is talking about? If not, then what, exactly, are you trying to convince me of?

People who are uinable to discern spirit are unable to see anything even with examples because they do not have that gift.

About one year ago I was in a room with two lay leaders and three pastors with over 25 years of experience each. In a few minutes I was able to draw out the man we were talking with and pointed out his lies. He started shaking and the pastors felt sorry for him. The pastors got somewhat agitated and asked me how I knew. It was so obvious to me that it did not need an explanation. I gave them several examples of how the man answered the questions and things I asked for verification. They completely missed his posture and his conduct and explanations when I asked him questions. The man was a false teacher and was living a lie. A few weeks later we found out from a businessman about how he was able to manipulate the pastors and one other lay leader. 3/4 of the people had hope until it was dashed and left. About three months later the church was put up for sale. It is now sold. People who are not able to discern spirits have no place in the leadership of a church.

 

[gb93433]

Have you seen solid examples of the people GLF is talking about?

I have had them right in front of me. Within a few minutes of talking to one in a church about one year ago I knew what their problem was. When I told one of the leaders he mentioned to me that he could not believe how fast I knew what the problem was.

 

[Don]

So what is your point? Do you just like to argue? Do you not believe the person on the field? I have been able to be in a church for only a few minutes and detect that there is a problem and who it is without ever meeting them.

The person in the field has admitted that he doesn't really know the people; that he's basing his expectations of them on altercations with other people of the same "denomination" in the past.

That's like saying that all hispanics are thieves because you knew some hispanics that were thieves. That's not discernment; that's prejudice. If I follow your line of logic, then all IFBers are pharisaical back-stabbing demons in religious clothing, and we should take our pitchforks and torches and hunt them all down.

He's also subsequently admitted that he thinks only the potential is there; but you're ready to support the thought that these people are going to act exactly the way you expect.

People who do not have the gift of discernment will often have the same response as you. I have experienced that a number of times from the blind.

And again: You're accusing me of not having discernment. But your argument is based on nothing more than someone's admission that there's a potential for something to happen, and that these people have--to this point--not shown any actual indication of fulfilling his expectation.

So you're ready to think the worst about these people based on a potential, which is based on an expectation caused by people not related to this group ... and you're lecturing me about discernment.

As I told GLF in a previous post, I pray that he's wrong and that he'll be pleasantly surprised; but I'll commiserate with him if it turns out they're as bad as y'all want to believe they are.

 

[Don]

I have had them right in front of me. Within a few minutes of talking to one in a church about one year ago I knew what their problem was. When I told one of the leaders he mentioned to me that he could not believe how fast I knew what the problem was.

Pardon me; you're saying you're talking about the same exact people GLF is?

 

[gb93433]

Pardon me; you're saying you're talking about the same exact people GLF is?

No. I have seen similar situations. Did he not say that some of the people have already been working on some in his congregation. I would name that as sheep stealing.

 

[glfredrick]

Way to go Don...

Do you self-identify with the IFB?

Believing that you do. And thanks for making my point about being careful with the people who do so.

 

[gb93433]

The person in the field has admitted that he doesn't really know the people; that he's basing his expectations of them on altercations with other people of the same "denomination" in the past.

He has only been there a short time. I have been able to detect spirits in less than two minutes. Not all people are able to discern spirits and some have an exceptional gift in that area. In my case it is at the very top.

That's like saying that all hispanics are thieves because you knew some hispanics that were thieves. That's not discernment; that's prejudice.

It may appear as prejudice and it may not be. I grew up in a city where something like 178 languages were spoken and have been accused of the same thing. What you suggest would appear that way to the person who does not have the ability to discern spirits. So yes I would question your ability to discern spirits. Discerning spirits is not something you can always put into words and give examples. When you try the person who does not have that gifts will not understand and should rely on those who do have that gift. I have gifts that are weak and heavily rely on others to inform and help me.

He's also subsequently admitted that he thinks only the potential is there; but you're ready to support the thought that these people are going to act exactly the way you expect.

He is watching. That is the job of a pastor. The potential is there. It is his job to watch and hope for the best. He also needs to be ready for wolves (Acts 20). I grew up on a farm and when an animal came onto the field we watched until it left.

And again: You're accusing me of not having discernment. But your argument is based on nothing more than someone's admission that there's a potential for something to happen, and that these people have--to this point--not shown any actual indication of fulfilling his expectation.

I am not accusing you of anything. However you have the same arguments I have heard from those who are not able to discern spirits even when it is pointed out to them. It is much like trying to tell a blind man about sight.

So you're ready to think the worst about these people based on a potential, which is based on an expectation caused by people not related to this group ... and you're lecturing me about discernment.

It has absolutely nothing to do with a psychological model. It is spiritual warfare not psychology. Seems to me like the position you take would be that is Jesus was better then Judas would have come around. The fact is that he did not and there are others who do not and will not.

As I told GLF in a previous post, I pray that he's wrong and that he'll be pleasantly surprised; but I'll commiserate with him if it turns out they're as bad as y'all want to believe they are.

I have had that kind in a congregation I pastored. They were the reason why the church had diminished to ten people. They were not the reason why it grew again. Not one of them changed their attitude or actions. I am sure you know what Jesus told the religious folks of the day. They were the only people he condemned.

Because it is a spiritual battle people will do and say things that they would never do at work or other places.

How do you think Satan works?

 

[glfredrick]

The truth is, I am the pastor of my flock. It is my biblical duty to watch for what might come against my flock. Jesus made many statements about those who had "leaven" that would leaven the whole loaf. In Scripture we also find the concept of a "watchman upon a wall" with a similar attitude toward those who would come in and disrupt the assembly.

In the same way that Jesus almost certainly understood that the makeup and predisposition of the Pharisses of His day would mean that they normally act and take up certain arguments on a consistent basis. If they did not, it was noteworth (Nicodemus, for instance). Most, however, lived up to their billing and it was only by the Holy Spirit that some were in fact converted later after the resurrection of Christ.

I have to "type" persons in general, but I also get to be pleasantly surprised when things turn out otherwise. To go blindly against what is known about any people group in the hopes that they are somehow altruistic in all their motives when their actions over the years have proven otherwise is simply to not guard against the wolves who come against my sheep -- and come they will. The Word promises it! Whether THESE particular people will be the wolves remains to be seen, but I am the shepherd (rightly, "under-shepherd" for Christ is our true Shepherd!) of this flock, so watch I will.

So, though I have absolutely no designs on the congregation that meets in my premises, I am watching to insure that the converse is not true, for we HAVE a building and they do not. We HAVE an established ministry and they do not. We pay the bills to operate our facility and they do not. We have the upstairs and the sanctuary with all the trappings of church, they do not. The temptation is on them to desire what we have.