IFB compared to Baptist churches

This happens to be one of the best descriptions of problems occuring on both sides.

I have left an IFB due to beliefs that are just not Biblical; rather, they are manmade by the pastor. At first, I thought I could ignore the issues and worship God, but each week I would leave the church with a depression that I had not experienced before in any SBC church and most of the SBC churches in our area are fairly conservative. Our biggest problem is a number of small churches in surrounding towns lack educated pastors.

Be careful and start by looking at their statement-of-faith and if there is any man-made item listed, question the pastor as to why it is on the statement before joining. I was enough of a dummy not to pay attention to NUMBER ONE: THE KJB1611 IS GOD'S WORD TO MODERN MAN AND CORRECTS ALL OTHER MANUSCRIPTS OLD AND NEW. GOD CHOSE TO USE THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE TO PROVIDE US WITH THE PERFECT WORDS, GRAMMAR, SPELLING and PUNCTUATION.

If I had been paying attention I would have read this as a number one RED FLAG. Because this is preached in every sermon at least twice. Since I have about 15 versions stacked by my bed that I use depending on the mood I am in, then that pastor would have booted me out if I had told him. (Legalism)

Not found in the State-of-faith is that women are to wear dresses and men suits and ties. He doesn't push the men so hard because when I left work on Wednesday nights I usually came with the clothes I wear at work and I don't wear a tie to work and often have to wear special boots depending on which buildings I have to check on during the day.

After I quit going to the church and let my daughter and her family know I wasn't coming back it was almost as if the depression lifted immediately. Of course, I'm sure that my daughter won't tell me, but the church has no doubt already kicked me out at the preacher's "order" (no voting) because I have gone back to my liberal ways; in other words a SBC.

There is another sad situation I see among many IFB and that is their missionaries have to spend half of their year going to different churches and pitching for money. The church I was at will accept a missionary if they fit all their rules such as KJB, etc. and give them $100 for 2 years and a 3rd year if they are showing growth. I was expected to make my tithe and a committment for missionaries and they must be marked seperately so they don't go into the wrong fund.

The pastor is sincere, no doubt, but in many ways: wrong!

 

This is not a sad situation, but a Biblical process. (See Phil. 4:10 & 14-19, Acts 14:26-28, 2 Cor. 1:11, etc.) I don't know a single IFB missionary (or other faith missions group missionary) who calls deputation sad. (And I never, ever "pitch for money." That's simply not right.) We are now on furlough, have visited many churches and had many precious experiences, though furlough is extremely difficult. Right now we are with a pastor friend whose church has supported us for 31 years, and who visited us in Japan 20 years ago. He gave me a hug when we got here. Precious! And several people in the church told us they pray for us every day. Precious. And you should have seen the way the 6 missionary couples were treated at the Global Impact Celebration at a church in TX last month. Among other wonderful experiences, our wives were all taken out in a limo for a $300 shopping spree. Precious!

This is bizarre, un-Biblical and wacko. I've never heard of anythin similar in my 34 years since joining the mission board. (And I've heard some dillies!)

I completely agree. From all you've said, he's an over the top, legalistic, Ruckmanite IFB. I wouldn't stay in his church for more than one Sunday.

 

What I mean when I use the term "liberal" here is theologically liberal. I like contemporary music, I go to the movies, my daughters where pants, I use several modern translations, etc... I don't mean "liberal" like many fundies would use the term.

I mean that there are many SBC liberals who deny the infallibility of the Scriptures, the virgin birth, etc...

Of course there are many, many, many more orthodox evangelical SBCers.

I was just saying to STT that he ought to stop whining about people pointing out legitimate problems that exist under the banner "IFB". We have our issues too but we don't go around playing the martyr every time somebody points out that there are liberals in our ranks.

 

Actually, he quotes Ripplinger all the time from the pulpit.

After growing up in the SBC and watching the missionaries get medical aid, aid in help to get started and paid a salary where they can focus strictly on building their churches, I must say that it works well and there is at least one example in the Bible I used to know, but have forgotten the location where Paul carries money and pools it for a certain missionary team or church. I don't see how coordinating all your overhead is a bad thing--that way you also know exactly the beliefs of the missionaries and something about their training. Just something to think about. I see the IFB's starting to go to conventions and tie together to pool money for missionaries; a lot of them are finding out it is more effecient.

The missionaries I have seen have to spend their time making video DVD's to show slides usually with music of their work and ones just starting have a difficult time--just like someone applying for a new job I guess.

The preacher is over the top of anything I have ever seen--he claims to have been in Kyles class at a college in Arkansas, does anybody know if Kyle taught seminary in Arkansas? I know that they claimed they wouldn't get accredited by anybody because then they couldn't teach their doctrine on gays. I haven't seen that as a problem, it is a simple belief that is in the Bible. I guess a gay could come in and cause legal problems, but I think this is more of an excuse because I do not think the people who started the seminary had degrees, nor do I think they would have qualified for a college level seminary due to the fact that the state would require the leaders to have some kind of degree. This pastor claims he was on the board of directors and has a B.S. degree, but never says what it is in. It is just marked in the bulletin the college professors that started the seminary just gave each other degrees and went on to run and teach at the college until they got a few professional teachers. He did mention something that sounded like this was the model for the seminary---taking people that believe in the KJB1611 is the inspired Words of God overriding any Older Manuscripts down to the punctuation and spelling.

He quotes one place where Saviour is spelled the way I did with three vowels and if that one verse is not spelled that way they should throw that devil's Bible away and go buy one and check that particular verse for spelling.

 

He quotes Riplinger? Or he quotes Ruckman? Or both?

Sent you a private message.

 

A lot of professors in some of our colleges and I'll even name one because my brother's both attended it: Baylor University in Waco, TX were really liberal. Many in philosophy and other classes denied the presence of a diety. To them the college was simply supported by the SBC.

I have an excellent book that was partially written by some of the participants in the movement toward conservatism (such as Presler and others). It is quite amazing what goes on behind the scenes even in a convention like the SBC. Sadly, many churches have taken this route.

We even lost 2nd Baptist Church in OKC because they wanted to be liberal after the "so called revolution toward conservatism" and they changed their name taking Baptist out of it. It was a big loss due to its size.

 

Both, but Riplinger more than Ruckman.:BangHead:

 

For the record, SBC missionaries also furlough and are well-recieved by the homeland churches. They just don't have to raise their own personal funds. They do recieve many gifts, however, I've been one of the givers and have hosted multiple missionary families in my own home.

About the "legalistic Ruckmanite IFB" church... I believe you in your statement that you would not stay for more than one Sunday, but would you stay for that ONE Sunday when you were there raising funds?

 

That has been going on for along time. I have personally seen the horoscope in the school newspaper of a conservative SBC university run by a very conservative president. When I asked the president about that he said there was nothing he could do because it was the student newspaper. What I saw in the SBC were so many men who did not wear pants. When conflict arose they avoided getting involved all in the name of autonomous churches.

It is a well known fact that non-believers are hired and that practice is seen as okay by many. I was shocked when I heard that and began to ask some questions. Conservatives I asked saw nothing wrong with that practice if the school could not find a Christian to teach. Where I came from every college I knew about that was considered a Christian school required that each entering student to give testimony of their faith in Jesus.

When one gets used to politics and gossip they see it as the norm. Years ago a man challenged me to preach on gossip. Each week another pastor and myself agreed to not participate in that kind of activity. I saw so much of it that I realized that I had bent what scripture taught and made it okay by what I saw around me. When I taught in the public school all records were to be made public. It disturbs me that so many religious groups do not do that. Just look at the financial report of some churches and see if you can find out how much each person was paid. In the public domain it is a matter of public record. I can look up how much your prope4rety is assessed for and how much your house is taxed. I can go to any local public school and asked to see their records. When I taught school each year the school had a designated day for that where anyone could come and see the books with the bookkeeper present to answer questions.

I have seen very conservative men leave the convention due to what they saw. Some I know were hired after the conservative resurgence. One I know said that the conservative takeover was good and then a few years later he opinion was quite different. I think it is much more than SBC vs CBF. I do not like either one. They are wasting time in the political machinery and not what they are called to do. I believe if they keep it up then God will take away what they have.

Where I live now are some of the best pastors I have ever met. There are pastors who have graduated from conservative schools. Each of them that I have had discussions with know that they do not stand in the same tradition as their denominations. The Greek Orthodox pastor is definitely a growing believer. Everyone I have met gives testimony of faith in Christ.

About 30 years ago I was part of a city wide evangelistic effort to present the gospel to every person in the city. Every church that I can remember which did not participate has severely declined since.

 

I want to hone in on just this sentence, the rest of your post was obviously your opinion and you are welcome to it. but here, you make a claim about the SBC overall that you will have to substantiate.

Just who, exactly, is this heavily political presence in the SBC that are "wasting time in the political machinery and not what they are called to do?" You seem to have a group of particular people in mind. Perhaps you can share with the rest of us whom you are thinking of.

Or, have you just made a perjorative statement that you cannot actually substantiate? In that case, your opposition to gossip aside, YOU HAVE INDEED JUST PRACTICED GOSSIP.

Ironic, huh...

 

It is my opinion. One of Satan's method is to get the Christian busy busy and not producing. Study for yourself the cycles that any organization goes through. Look around and notice the theological schools where they started and where they are today. The organization must stay focused on the most important.

Just read the BB and the talk about CBF, liberals, conservatives, and SBC. Jesus had to deal with those kind of people too. Notice what He saw as impoortant (what God wanted from the beginning).

I am making reference to their public newspaper and press. Maybe I am wrong but what would you consider that kinds of news when it comes to defaming someone in the news.

 

Nice try at deflecting the issue I raised...

I do read much of the Baptist Press and other religious press. It can indeed be political. But let's take the SBC for an example, especially as how you are aiming your attention at them. How many congregations curently exist? Somewhere around 44,000. Total membership is what? Somewhere above 16 MILLION. But who is the Convention? It does not even really exist year-round, but only during the Annual Meeting when messengers from the churches are sent to do the business of the Convention. Who is it that "dictates from on high" the political nature of the Convention and who makes sure the churches and members "toe the mark" so to speak? Absolutely NNE. Each church does its own thing as each is autonomous. So, where is this vast political machine?

The fact that you cannot name it means just what I said. You are merely practicing that which you claim to not practice -- gossip, and in particular, slanderous gossip.

 

In your opinion, what am I missing?
How could you read BP and walk away edified at what Gopd is doing. When you meet someone that is talked badly about in the religious papers what do you think of them.

Just look at what was posted about Rick Wanrren and how a number saw it as truth. Then another link was posted where Warren answered what was written about him calling it false.

I stopped reading so much of that kind of information as one you just named. Personally I did not find it edifying and help my walk with God. I used to take the state paper and quit because I knew what I would think if the postman read it. I am unable to find how it helps anyone to focus on Christ and send a strong message of love for another to the community I am trying to reach. Where I have been most of my life people do not care what the name is on the door. I am unable to find where Jesus got caught up in the religious and secular politics of the day. So if we are going to stay focused on Christ and not let Satan detract us from running the race to win then what would you suggest we do?

Take a look around at the denominations that are dying. Have they not taken their focus off of Christ. I personally know the president of a denomination and he refuses to talk about anyone without the person present and refuses to deal with churches involved in politics. He would rather have one leave the denomination that influence the other and the denomination become about politics. In fact it is written in their bylaws. They are not perfect and there are some troubled churches. It is amazing at how God is blessing that group of churches in some incredible ways. They have been asked to participate with a very very large organization in reaching people and training men as pastors in India. They could have never done that kind of work.

I cannot think of any church or organization that completely focuses on Jesus and avoids the political machinery that is not blessed by God. Can you?

 

This is irrelevant, since I've not criticized here how the SBC does missions.

In the first place, as I've told you before, I do not "raise funds." I have never asked for support or even special project funds (though I don't object to the second) from a church one single time. Money is never, ever my motive for presenting at a church. Believe that or disbelieve it (as you did once), I don't care.

Having said that, I would not knowingly present my ministry at a Ruckmanite church or one with that weird policy on missions. In fact, I would actually turn down support from a church with that kind of policy! But a missionary cannot always know what kind of church he is getting into before hand, unless they send a questionairre first. (And I have made the decision before not to go to a church that sent such a questionairre before hand.)

Now, shall we get off the subject of me, and get back to the OP? :type:

 

I can admit and agree with you on all of the above AND STILL fail to know why you VIOLATED YOUR OWN PRINCIPLE and GOSSIPED about someone that you do not really know about. You cannot name names, and you are unwilling to answer my question about that concern. You slandered the SBC on purpose, so either substantiate or recant.

About the news agencies that publish political items for the mass market. Would you suggest that it is possible that they have an ax to grind with someone -- or like yourself -- the entire SBC for some reason or another and that they DO NOT ACTUALLY REPRESENT the views OF the SBC?

 

Remember, I used to be a pastor with the General Baptists who's missionaries deputized in much the same mannner as you. I know that no missionary ever came to our church to "ask for money." It was merely assumed by all parties and they always left with a check.

I understand the nuance of your responce concerning taking money from a congregation with which you disagree. As long as you don't "ask" and they don't "tell" the money spends. :smilewinkgrin:

 

Riplinger is a flat out heretic, just like Ruckman.

What you describe here is much what a good faith missions board does. We have medical, retirement, salary, ministry reimbursement, etc.

Deputation was the hardest thing I ever did, but I got to see how 100 different churches and pastors did things. A real education, not to mention time of growth in faith.

Do you mean Hyles? Hyles never taught seminary, and I know of no IFB school of note in Arkansas.

He'd have a hard time with this in Japanese and Chinese, which don't "spell." :tongue3:

 

"Muzzle not the ox," and so forth.

If I worried about whether I crossed everyone's T's and dotted their I's, I'd never get anything done for the Lord. :1_grouphug:

 

Well, I certainly can't spell in any language. Microsoft made a fortune on people like me with their spellcheck.

Here is a quote from the pastor on their website. In fair copyright law I post the following sample of his life-story:

"A few years later, I was led to a sound doctrine Bible believing church. Bible Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Arkansas. From there I recieved the calling to preach under Dr. Jack Hyles while attending pastor school. A few months after that I surrendered to the missions field of Aguascalientes, Mexico. I finished my Bible training at Bethel Baptist College in Jacksonville, Arkansas"

Obviously, someone name Dr. Jack Hyles was preaching and/or teaching in Arkansas. One of these colleges is not registered with the state as a college according to this same pastor -- the reason being they couldn't teach that being "gay" is a sin if the state were to have any authority. In reality whichever church that wasn't registered was put together by a group of people who had lower degrees and I guess gave each other degrees as part of their program to get the school started. If this is the famous Hyles, then why would the pastor be preaching in a church with about 80 attending church on the best of Sundays?

I do have good news, I heard my daughter and her husband visited my nephew's Southern Baptist Church this weekend and he laughed and said well, they may have felt I (my nephew - the pastor) was pretty liberal Sunday, He told me: "I didn't preach in a suit, some women wore nice pants and I didn't preach from the KJV." and the one that will send you to hell is the "drum set" used by local SBC churches. I hope my kids are starting to see the truth of the legalism at their church. I would like to be back in a church with them and get to see my grandkids weekly.

The IFB pastor has some strange rules, for instance, they do sing contemporary music for specials, but he doesn't allow them to use background tapes, so they either have someone use an electronic keyboard or the piano (which is the standard musical instrument of a New Testament Baptist Church--just ask him.). I asked my daughter where he draws the line and she said in all honestly, "I think its the drums he won't allow." So, they really sinned last weekend.

Here is another quote from his website to give you an idea of what he thinks of himself: " I have been here going on my sixth year, and God has used me to break attendance records several times and see more baptisms in the past six years than in the last twenty-two years of the church existence." Not bad for a church that averages about 60 on a good Sunday morning and 30 on a good Sunday night.

 

Yes, I do agree that Riplinger is a flat out liar and will twist her comments to fill in her mistakes, but it is funny to see him pull out her book, lay it on top of his KJB1611 (he thinks its 1611) and read from it about the "New Age Translations".

Your last comment is quite funny. We had a missionary from China who was well versed in Chinese and even married a Chinese woman who can now speak English as well. They use the only Chinese translation that is available that is a true translation and is used nationwide except where other languages are used. The pastor asked him if they translated it from the KJB. He said, well, I think they went to the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts and translated directly and the pastor says, I would have a lot of problems with that. I don't know why the Chinese people can't have a perfect Bible in their language if somebody would just translate it from a KJB1611 like we use.

Also note that I pointed out that he uses a verse in the Bible that indicates that anything from a "King" is good; So, the "King James" is good. He also says the KJV1611 was corrected for spelling ONLY exactly 7 times which is God's perfect number so therefore it is now perfect.

When they were selling those cheap 1611 look alikes during the anniversary of the KJV he bought one for everybody in the church. I just didn't have the guts to ask him where the aprocrypha was.