Define Idolatry

[Thinkingstuff]

The scriptures do not "use" but "throughly furnish" these things! Study the Greek term exartizo translated "throughly furnish." The scriptures COMPLETELY AND SUFFICIENT AND THOROUGH FURNISH everything needed for the man of God to define an do good works.

Don't need tradition to furnish anything for this goal as the scriputes COMPLETELY AND SUFFICIENTLY AND THROUGHLY AND PERFECTLY supply these things to obtain that goal. Hence SCRIPTURES ALONE without tradition THROUGHLY COMPLETELY AND SUFFICIENTLY furnish all these things to accomplish that goal.

I knonw the greek. Thourghly furnished to do good works. Not that everything about doctrine is espoused. Read the context. Don't add to it. pay attention to your greek grammer!

 

[The Biblicist]

On what basis does the RCC say they can claim traditions to be equal to scriptures and on same level for setting doctrines and practices?

CANNOT be from the Bible itself, so where?

Yes, the take passages where the Apostles orally taught the churches and commanded them to obey what they orally were taught (1 Thes. 2:15; 2 thes. 3:6.

From such texts they rationalize that their disciples were were also promised to preserve it from generation to generation and that they were somehow supernaturally enabled to remember it as given and transmit it as given along with the apostolic scriptures and together they provide the material and formal completion of apostolic faith and practice or what they call Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scriptures or together as the Deposit of Faith.

 

[The Biblicist]

I knonw the greek. Thourghly furnished to do good works. Not that everything about doctrine is espoused. Read the context. Don't add to it. pay attention to your greek grammer!

You just keep changing angles hoping one will fit. Again, what the Scripture THOROUGHLY FURNISHES is doctrine, instruction, correction and reproof - that is what scriptures thoroughly furnishes!

Now, HOW THOROUGHLY? So thoroughly that it covers "ALL" good works. So thoroughly that the man of God is "perfect" or complete just with what the Scriptures furnish.

Hence, NO NEED FOR TRADITION because what scripture furnishes is so thorough, so complete, so finished that "ALL" good works are covered.

Scripture ALONE does that, "ALL" of that!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You just keep changing angles hoping one will fit. Again, what the Scripture THOROUGHLY FURNISHES is doctrine, instruction, correction and reproof - that is what scriptures thoroughly furnishes!

Now, HOW THOROUGHLY? So thoroughly that it covers "ALL" good works. So thoroughly that the man of God is "perfect" or complete just with what the Scriptures furnish.

Hence, NO NEED FOR TRADITION because what scripture furnishes is so thorough, so complete, so finished that "ALL" good works are covered.

Scripture ALONE does that, "ALL" of that!

Read the passage again

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it,

This verse is about oral tradition

15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Pay attention here scriptures make you wise for salvation. Doesn't say it is the sole authority or even sole sufficiency

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

This passage tells us that all Scripture is inspired and what it is useful for IE teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteosness. Nothing in this passage says scriptures teach every thing there is to know in teaching rebuking correcting and training.

17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What does it mean thoroughly equiped for? For Good works. The passage means every good work that you can do is provided for in the scriptures. Not that scriptures are the sole authority or sole sufficency for everything else.

You really have to try hard, which you have to make the passage mean something else.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

On what basis does the RCC say they can claim traditions to be equal to scriptures and on same level for setting doctrines and practices?

CANNOT be from the Bible itself, so where?

I refer you to my post 160 as you may have missed it.

 

[The Biblicist]

This verse is about oral tradition

No it is not! It is about continuing in the truth he has been taught as an individual, it is not about any promise for the perpetuation of tradition as a Sacred tradition.

Pay attention here scriptures make you wise for salvation. Doesn't say it is the sole authority or even sole sufficiency

It does not include Tradition either and since that is the only other alternative then it is SOLELY scripture that is the subject and the means for this.

This passage tells us that all Scripture is inspired and what it is useful for IE teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteosness. Nothing in this passage says scriptures teach every thing there is to know in teaching rebuking correcting and training.

That is because you or dissecting and isolating it from verse 17. It is this very use of Scripture that makes the man of God "THROUGHLY FURNISHED" or COMPLETELY AND SUFFICENTLY ALL BY ITSELF WITHOUT TRADITION FURNISHED to accomplish "ALL" good works WITHOUT TRADITION just SOLELY by Scriptures are all these things FURNISHED!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No it is not! It is about continuing in the truth he has been taught as an individual,

Ie... Oral Tradition from Paul and his mother and grandmother

That is because you or dissecting and isolating it from verse 17

Nope I put it in context. There is nothing in that chapter or verses you used that suggest scripture is sole authority for anything. Except to equip a man to do good works. That is exactly what paul is saying and you keep trying to take it out of context and trying hard to misinterpet it. You aren't even exegete-ing it well. You are rellying on one word and applying it to the text before it rather than were it goes to the text after it.

 

[The Biblicist]

Ie... Oral Tradition from Paul and his mother and grandmother

I could say the same thing about my grandmother and father but that does not mean I am engaged in any promise by God to pass down Sacred Tradition to be used to interpret scriptures.

Except to equip a man to do good works.

Right! It is WHAT he is being equipped with by scriptures ALONE because WHAT he is equipped by scriptures is totally SUFFICIENT to make the man of God "perfect" and totally SUFFICIENT for "every" good work and nothing but the scriptures ALONE are included in verse 16 and nothing but WHAT the scriptures provide ALONE are provided in verse 16 to completely furnish this man - Scriptures ALONE provide COMPLETE SUFFICIENCY to make him "perfect" and COMPLETELY SUFFICIENT for "ALL" his works WITHOUT TRADITION! Thus Scripture ALONE!

 

[The Biblicist]

I could say the same thing about my grandmother and father but that does not mean I am engaged in any promise by God to pass down Sacred Tradition to be used to interpret scriptures.




Right! It is WHAT he is being equipped with by scriptures ALONE because WHAT he is equipped by scriptures is totally SUFFICIENT to make the man of God "perfect" and totally SUFFICIENT for "every" good work and nothing but the scriptures ALONE are included in verse 16 and nothing but WHAT the scriptures provide ALONE are provided in verse 16 to completely furnish this man - Scriptures ALONE provide COMPLETE SUFFICIENCY to make him "perfect" and COMPLETELY SUFFICIENT for "ALL" his works WITHOUT TRADITION! Thus Scripture ALONE!

1 Timothy 3:16 does not say "All scripture AND Apostolic Oral Traditions are inspired of God and are profitable"

1. So this text is about Scripure ALONE


1 Timothy 3:16 does not say that Apostolic Oral tradition is what supplies "Doctrine, instruction, correctiona and reproof" does it?

2. So Scripture ALONE is what this text says supplies these things.


1 Timonth 3:17 does not say what is provided by Apostolic Oral Tradition is what makes the man of God "perfect" does it?

3. No, it has it reference to "scriptures" ALONE in verse 16.


1 Timothy 3:17 does not say what was "throughly furnished" by Apostolic Oral Tradition makes the man of God sufficient for "ALL" good works does it?

4. So Scripture ALONE is what provides the man of God these things so he can be THROUGHLY FURNISHED unto "ALL" good works doesn't it?

 

[DaChaser1]

Ie... Oral Tradition from Paul and his mother and grandmother


Nope I put it in context. There is nothing in that chapter or verses you used that suggest scripture is sole authority for anything. Except to equip a man to do good works. That is exactly what paul is saying and you keep trying to take it out of context and trying hard to misinterpet it. You aren't even exegete-ing it well. You are rellying on one word and applying it to the text before it rather than were it goes to the text after it.

Where from that does the RCC get oral tradition as being on going revelation from God?

Apostolic succession cannot be proven either, as there was bo formal Bishop/papacy fro hundreds of yeras after the Apsotles died...

Which church can cliam it today? greek/russian/rcc church?

Seems that RCC is OT church trying to put on terminology of the NT...

Cannot use old wineskins for the new wine!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Where from that does the RCC get oral tradition as being on going revelation from God?

Apostolic succession cannot be proven either, as there was bo formal Bishop/papacy fro hundreds of yeras after the Apsotles died...

Which church can cliam it today? greek/russian/rcc church?

Seems that RCC is OT church trying to put on terminology of the NT...

Cannot use old wineskins for the new wine!

did you read my post 160?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

1 Timothy 3:16 does not say "All scripture AND Apostolic Oral Traditions are inspired of God and are profitable"

1. So this text is about Scripure ALONE

Nope you are wrong because 1 Timothy 3:16 is a quote from tradition

16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:
He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,[a]
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.

And you are wrong about 2 Tim 3:16 because it doesn't say Scripture Alone. You are adding to scripture. What it does say is that scriptures are good for teaching rebuking correcting and training in righteousness it doesn't say its the sole authority any where in that passage no matter how much you wish it to

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

where do you see the word alone or sole there?

1 Timothy 3:16 does not say that Apostolic Oral tradition is what supplies "Doctrine, instruction, correctiona and reproof" does it?

nope but 1 timothy 3:16 quotes Apostolic oral tradition as I posted above. and 2 timothy 3:16 doesn't say scriptures say all there is about doctrine or any other topic mentioned.

2. So Scripture ALONE is what this text says supplies these things.

Again in both passages its clear scripture is note alone.

1 Timonth 3:17 does not say what is provided by Apostolic Oral Tradition is what makes the man of God "perfect" does it?

Nope, because there is no such verse. Now 2 Timothy 3:17 in context of 3:14 all the way down seems to say something different

14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, Oral Tradition 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed NOT ONLY and is useful again not onlyfor teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped For what?for every good work yeah thats right good work not for all doctrine or all anything else.

 

[The Biblicist]

Nope you are wrong because 1 Timothy 3:16 is a quote from tradition

Alright so I made a typo and typed "1" instead of "2" Timothy.

And you are wrong about 2 Tim 3:16 because it doesn't say Scripture Alone. You are adding to scripture.

You imagine that because a text does not use the term "alone" that there is no other way to express the idea of "alone"???? That seems to be your sugar daddy??? You know that is a foolish defense!

1. 2 Timothy 3:16 refers to no other source but the "scritpures" ALONE for doctrine....etc. Do you find any other source but the "scriptures" ALONE for what is furnisned for the man of God? Even though the term "alone" is not found there is no other source being referred to for that list of things "doctrine...etc." but the "scriptures" ALONE.

2. 2 Timothy 3:17 the man of God is made "perfect" by no other stated source and its products listed than "scriptures" ALONE even though the term "alone" cannot be found.

3. 2 Timothy 3:17 the man of God is throughly furnished with those list of items in verse 16 from no other stated source but the "scriptures" ALONE as it is ONLY the scriptures that is said to furnish the man of God sufficeintly for "ALL" good works even though the term "alone" cannot be found.

Timothy's previous instuction by his grandmother and mother and Paul has nothing to do with promising and passing down a Sacred Tradition but with their use of the "scriptures" as the source of their teaching him!

 

[DHK]

The entirety of the Gospel including those items referred to in these passages.

Tradition is contained in the Word of God--the Gospels and what is in these passages (I assume you are talking about the Word of God). Therefore "tradition" according to you is nothing more than the Word of God. You have made a very good case for sola scriptura.

You further said:

3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

And those things taught not spoken of in scripture. Such as how to properly understand the context in which scripture is writen.

Another good case for sola scriptura. During the time between his resurrection and his ascension he explained to them the Word of God with the Word of God. That sola scriptura.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Tradition is contained in the Word of God--the Gospels and what is in these passages (I assume you are talking about the Word of God). Therefore "tradition" according to you is nothing more than the Word of God. You have made a very good case for sola scriptura.

You further said:


Another good case for sola scriptura. During the time between his resurrection and his ascension he explained to them the Word of God with the Word of God. That sola scriptura.

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

I have often told you that for the most part Tradition and scriptures overlap because they are the same thing. However, The whole word of God isn't just in scriptures but in the teachings the Apostles passed down such as how to understand scripture. That doesn't make a good case for sola scriptura because Jesus gives us the means how to understand scripture not make our understanding of scripture into its reading. And this view of scripture has been handed by the apostles to their successors.

Scriptures show use of liturgical worship. Baptist don't have that. Paul often refers to apostolic traditions quoting hymns that teach things about Jesus that aren't found in scriptures. Jude relies on out side scriptural sources for his teaching and on and on it goes.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have often told you that for the most part Tradition and scriptures overlap because they are the same thing. However, The whole word of God isn't just in scriptures but in the teachings the Apostles passed down such as how to understand scripture.

How does scripture provide a basis to believe that the Word of God is not sufficient for "doctrine, instruction, correction and reproof" so that the man of God may be perfect and thoroughly furnished unto all good works but depends upon something additional to the scriptures???? Book, chapter and verse please?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

How does scripture provide a basis to believe that the Word of God is not sufficient for "doctrine, instruction, correction and reproof" so that the man of God may be perfect and thoroughly furnished unto all good works but depends upon something additional to the scriptures???? Book, chapter and verse please?

that was a sneaky attempt. But I caught it. You take what I said and twisted it. The whole council of God or everything that was taught by Jesus is not in scripture. Much of it is. And as much as is in scripture is useful (whtat that passage actually says) to make you wise for doctrine, instruction, correction and reproof. Which gives you the ability to do all good works.

Your attempt to replace usefull with full suficiency is in error. That is not what that text says. Scriptures are sufficient with the proper Traditional perspective. For instance scriptures don't lay out liturgical practices which obviously the first christians participated in. Note Jesus established a kingdom not a book. A living kingdom made up of people. The scriptures are provided to offer teachings on various topics that the people of the kingdom ensured were passed down. But not everything is in there. As we can see when Jude quotes from traditional beliefs. Or Paul himself. Remember. Apostolic teaching (Tradition) came first and foremost.

 

[The Biblicist]

that was a sneaky attempt. But I caught it. You take what I said and twisted it. The whole council of God or everything that was taught by Jesus is not in scripture. Much of it is.

Book, chapter and verse to show a Biblical disclaimer! I was not being sneaky at all. You flatly contradicted 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Your attempt to replace usefull with full suficiency is in error.

The word "perfect" = complete and the words "throughly furnished" and the word "all" are based upon what Paul says the Scriptures provide in verse 16. Paul does not say the "scriptures" plus "tradition" provide these things but ONLY says "scripture" provides these things and WHAT it provides makes the man of God "perfect" - complete, because WHAT it provides "THROUGHLY FURNISHED" the man of God with EVERYTHING needed to complete "ALL" good works without reference, mention, inclusion of TRADITION and therefore by INFERENCE the words "perfect" "throughly furnished" and "all" are in direct to WHAT the scriptures provide ALONE!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Book, chapter and verse to show a Biblical disclaimer! I was not being sneaky at all. You flatly contradicted 2 Timothy 3:16-17.




The word "perfect" = complete and the words "throughly furnished" and the word "all" are based upon what Paul says the Scriptures provide in verse 16. Paul does not say the "scriptures" plus "tradition" provide these things but ONLY says "scripture" provides these things and WHAT it provides makes the man of God "perfect" - complete, because WHAT it provides "THROUGHLY FURNISHED" the man of God with EVERYTHING needed to complete "ALL" good works without reference, mention, inclusion of TRADITION and therefore by INFERENCE the words "perfect" "throughly furnished" and "all" are in direct to WHAT the scriptures provide ALONE!

That word is not translated useful. Thoroughly furnished applies to doing good works. Not everything that proceeds it. You are missapplying scripture. And by doing so you were being sneaky because useful does not mean sufficient. I did not contradict 2Timothy as 2 Timothy does not state everything taught by Jesus is in scripture.

 

[DaChaser1]

That word is not translated useful. Thoroughly furnished applies to doing good works. Not everything that proceeds it. You are missapplying scripture. And by doing so you were being sneaky because useful does not mean sufficient. I did not contradict 2Timothy as 2 Timothy does not state everything taught by Jesus is in scripture.

Apostle john stated that not EVERYTHING jesus said and did was recorded done for us, but what GOD knew that we needed in order to be saved and following Him!

IF not found in the scriptures.evident that the Lord did not deem it fit for us to know it, and not part of the Christian faith...

IF God saw fit to keep thing hidden to us, and unknown, why would he sufddenly reverse his position and give it to the RCC afterwards?

Do you realise just HOW close this is to Monmonism and the Apostles/prophets and other sacred books used?

maybe because ALL from same source, both RCC/Mormonism?